Anakin7 Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 (edited) Paul in Romans 10:14-15 gives the conditions for one To accept Christ Jesus and be Saved - A preacher must be sent from God, A proclamation of the message, hearing the message, believing the message, and according to Christ Jesus giving one's life to God and walk accordingly the rest of one's life as a Disciple - Luke 14: 25-35, Amen and Amen. The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine Washing My Garment/Robe In His blood In his Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited May 1, 2018 by Anakin7
FormerLDS Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 17 hours ago, pogi said: Are you suggesting that your particular denomination is the only which believes what Jesus "plainly" says? No. I'm suggesting that people prefer to believe the Bible was mistranslated and/or corrupted because the Bible doesn't fit their church doctrine.
FormerLDS Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 16 hours ago, pogi said: Titus 2:11 - "Plainly", salvation (rather than eternal life) will appear unto all men because of the grace of God. God graces everyone in many other ways too, even without knowing his name. God graces everyone in many other ways too, even without knowing his name. Give me your interpretation of what you think these versus "plainly" mean? What does it mean for people who have never seen a Bible, that the "heavens" declare his righteousness? Are you suggesting that the literal voice of God from heaven will declare his name and word to them in their physical ears? What does this look like to you? Are you suggesting that no one has ever died without hearing the name Jesus Christ in their life? Not only has every single soul who has ever lived heard his name, but they know enough about him to "believe" in him? These passages are easily explained by the LDS because of our understanding of the light of Christ, but I am curious to see how you interpret this. You reject that this will happen through feelings in the hearts of those who are born without Bibles or preachers (as evidenced by other threads), so without a Bible or a preacher, and without speaking to the heart, the only possible explanation is a literal voice from heaven preaching to these people...is that really what you believe? You asked: "What about those who never had a first chance to believe?" The Bible plainly tells us each and every person who lives will have that first chance to either believe or not believe.
FormerLDS Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 16 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: So, you are saying that someone who does not have eternal life here and now is spiritually dead, and one who has eternal life here and now (is saved) is spiritually alive? Exactly! 16 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: And you reject Rev 20:5-15 in which universal resurrection takes place, with everyone being assigned to his fate based on the final judgment? Those who do not have eternal life are resurrected unto eternal damnation. Those who have eternal life are resurrected unto the resurrection of life (John 5:29). Consider the parable of the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25. Did they become sheep during mortality or after mortality?
pogi Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 3 hours ago, LittleNipper said: Isn't this just what is recorded in the Bible? The eunuch didn't understand GOD's Word and GOD sent someone to enlighten him? No, these uncontacted people of the Amazon are nothing like the eunuch who was reading the words of Isaiah when Philip found him. They don't have the Bible! They don't live around other Christians! They don't speak a language that the rest of civilization even understands! How is that even remotely the same? How many Christians were there at the time of Philip? Because this eunuch was contacted by Philip, are you suggesting that Philip and his fellow Christians were able to contact every single person on planet earth through their missionary efforts to teach them about Jesus? 3 hours ago, LittleNipper said: I believe GOD sent missionaries and shipwrecked Christians over time to bring the word to those who would listen. The question is ----did they in fact listen or simply distort the truth with repeated human sacrifices? What are you talking about? You think that ship wrecked Christians taught the gospel to the pre-Columbian inhabitants of America? Serious? 3 hours ago, LittleNipper said: I believe you listen more to your church than you do to the Holy Spirit or the Word. In that regard how are you any different than the Orthodox Jew the can only ponder the rabbinical writings and add excuse after excuse for why a JUST GOD will not ultimately punish his sin without a sacrifice? I mean, It's been 2000 years since their temple was destroyed... And yet they still seek to rebuild it and wont recognise that the Messiah is Jesus (obviously some do and many more are beginning to). This of course involves placing one's trust in GOD alone and not in RITUAL! Ritualism and TRADITION is what blinds and binds people until they are no different than some natives hiding from the reality all around them in plan view... Wow...condemning me and the Jews all in one blow! Your self-righteous, superficial judgment, and quickness to condemn an entire people to hell is astounding. You don't see my heart, yet you pretend to know it.
pogi Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 39 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: You asked: "What about those who never had a first chance to believe?" The Bible plainly tells us each and every person who lives will have that first chance to either believe or not believe. I am asking how? See my example above of the Amazonian people isolated entirely isolated from civilization. What is their chance?
FormerLDS Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 16 hours ago, JAHS said: Usually when the scriptures talk about "heavens" it is talking about what we see in the sky or space; planets, stars, etc. So are you saying that just because all the other people of the earth can see what He has made; that is enough to declare that they have had a fair chance to accept Christ and His gospel? Does that include all those who have never even heard of Jesus and His gospel or grace or the Bible? How can they believe and be saved in something they have never heard of before? If what you say is true why do we have any need for religions or the Bible at all? In what way do "The heavens declare the glory of God" ? How do the heavens declare the glory of God? How does the glorious grace of our Lord Jesus Christ that leads to salvation appear to all mankind? There are many things about God that we simply do not understand or have the ability to comprehend. Frankly, it's not my job to understand how God decides to operate His business, but I do believe that if He tells us something in His word, then He is capable of doing what He says.
pogi Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 45 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: No. I'm suggesting that people prefer to believe the Bible was mistranslated and/or corrupted because the Bible doesn't fit their church doctrine. That is not what you said. You said this: Quote Could it be that the reason there are so many Bible-based christian denominations, is people do not believe what Jesus Christ plainly says? Again, this suggests that the reason there are so many different Bible-based christian denominations is because "people don't believe what Jesus plainly says". You are condemning all other Christian denominations (not just Mormons) who read the Bible different from you. Why is your specific denomination special?
FormerLDS Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 57 minutes ago, pogi said: I am asking how? See my example above of the Amazonian people isolated entirely isolated from civilization. What is their chance? How did God create matter from nothing? How did Jesus walk on water? How does the grace of God that brings salvation appear to all mankind? I don't know, but I still believe His word.
FormerLDS Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 58 minutes ago, pogi said: Again, this suggests that the reason there are so many different Bible-based christian denominations is because "people don't believe what Jesus plainly says". You are condemning all other Christian denominations (not just Mormons) who read the Bible different from you. Why is your specific denomination special? My denomination isn't special. My savior is special. He gives eternal life freely to anyone who asks. Has your savior given you that same life?
pogi Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 (edited) Quote I don't know, but I still believe His word. Just to clarify, the name "Jesus Christ" and his teachings will be taught to them through actual audible verbal language rather than a feeling in their heart, correct? This teaching will come in the form of a Bible in their unknown language, or a preacher from earth or heaven who speaks their unknown language...correct? Just curious, can you give me an example in history of a people/person being miraculously converted to Christianity without access to a Bible or a preacher? If this really happens, surely there is a historical record of this somewhere. So where is the evidence that this has happened? If audible voices from heaven are teaching every single soul who has ever been born in an isolated village about Jesus Christ, sooner or later, one is bound to believe...right? At the very least the name of Jesus Christ would be discussed from generation after generation after generation among the people, right? There would be all sorts of stories of heavenly teachings about Jesus, even if they choose not to believe in his name, they would still know his name and his teachings if every single child gets a chance. So, if we go into any village and ask them if they have heard of Jesus Christ and his teachings, and they say, "no, we have no concept of Jesus or this idea of belief/faith in his name, no concept of salvation or heaven/hell"...how do you explain that? Edited May 1, 2018 by pogi
pogi Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 55 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: My denomination isn't special. My savior is special. He gives eternal life freely to anyone who asks. Has your savior given you that same life? Many denominations read the Bible differently from you, why do you believe that your interpretation is the only correct one, when thousands of denominations read the Bible differently from your denomination? If your denomination has the only correct reading, then you are special indeed!
Anakin7 Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 In Luke 14:25-35 Christ Jesus states that one must count the cost to follow Him. So one must accept access activate grab hold of obtain receive hold on to the person and work of Christ Jesus. The words Grace, Faith, Belief in the anchient world of the middle East have a much more powerful internal Covenant continious meaning than that of evangelical protestantism of this day of which FormerLDS is married to. The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine, Washing My Garment In His Blood, In His Eternal Debt, Grace. Anakin 7.
RevTestament Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 1 hour ago, FormerLDS said: How did God create matter from nothing? How did Jesus walk on water? How does the grace of God that brings salvation appear to all mankind? I don't know, but I still believe His word. Your Savior doesn't need missionaries to do good works for Him. You are wasting your time on this board because He already sent His light throughout the world before He came, and everyone knew him by His miracle of osmosis, and of His atoning sacrifice before He came... which is why they crucified Him...of course. Your very presence on this board belies your theology. Why are you here if you believe everyone has already had their chance to accept Yeshua? Why did He tell His apostles to go out into all the world, and baptize those who believe their words? According to you, you are an unwanted and unneeded servant, who is wasting His time here since He has already saved you...just go home and watch TV. Isn't that a nice comforting theology? Gosh I wish I had thunk that one up myself instead of wasting my whole life reading thousands of scriptures, learning His word and trying to be a better servant... and here all I needed to know is that He has already saved those who didn't know His name, so all I have to do is utter Jesus I believe, come save me! Now I can safely disregard all those other superfluous scriptures...whew! Thank you FormerLDS for your grreat wisdom! 1
FormerLDS Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 51 minutes ago, pogi said: Just curious, can you give me an example in history of a people/person being miraculously converted to Christianity without access to a Bible or a preacher? If this really happens, surely there is a historical record of this somewhere. So where is the evidence that this has happened? If audible voices from heaven are teaching every single soul who has ever been born in an isolated village about Jesus Christ, sooner or later, one is bound to believe...right? At the very least the name of Jesus Christ would be discussed from generation after generation after generation among the people, right? There would be all sorts of stories of heavenly teachings about Jesus, even if they choose not to believe in his name, they would still know his name and his teachings if every single child gets a chance. So, if we go into any village and ask them if they have heard of Jesus Christ and his teachings, and they say, "no, we have no concept of Jesus or this idea of belief/faith in his name, no concept of salvation or heaven/hell"...how do you explain that? The Bible plainly tells us that the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. If you won't believe the word of God, then why would you believe me? Perhaps you should investigate your own question and see for yourself?
pogi Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 7 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: The Bible plainly tells us that the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. If you won't believe the word of God, then why would you believe me? Perhaps you should investigate your own question and see for yourself? This is a discussion forum. Are you going to answer any questions or dodge all day long? Can you supply any evidence of a miraculous conversion to Christianity without the aid of a Bible or preacher or not?
FormerLDS Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 13 minutes ago, RevTestament said: Your Savior doesn't need missionaries to do good works for Him. You are wasting your time on this board because He already sent His light throughout the world before He came, and everyone knew him by His miracle of osmosis, and of His atoning sacrifice before He came... which is why they crucified Him...of course. Your very presence on this board belies your theology. Why are you here if you believe everyone has already had their chance to accept Yeshua? Why did He tell His apostles to go out into all the world, and baptize those who believe their words? According to you, you are an unwanted and unneeded servant, who is wasting His time here since He has already saved you...just go home and watch TV. Isn't that a nice comforting theology? Gosh I wish I had thunk that one up myself instead of wasting my whole life reading thousands of scriptures, learning His word and trying to be a better servant... and here all I needed to know is that He has already saved those who didn't know His name, so all I have to do is utter Jesus I believe, come save me! Now I can safely disregard all those other superfluous scriptures...whew! Thank you FormerLDS for your grreat wisdom! I believe God uses various means to accomplish His work. For some, it is the spoken word, for others it is the written word, for others still it could be the heavens themselves that declare His handywork, His righteousness and His glory.
Robert F. Smith Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 3 hours ago, FormerLDS said: Exactly! Those who do not have eternal life are resurrected unto eternal damnation. Those who have eternal life are resurrected unto the resurrection of life (John 5:29). Consider the parable of the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25. Did they become sheep during mortality or after mortality? Depends on whether you adhere to the view that required ordinances can be performed by proxy for the dead (pending the last judgment), as we know from 1 Cor 15:29? The great scholar James Barr was quite clear that Paul was speaking of a Jewish tradition of remission/expiation of sins for the dead by proxy -- as for example in 2 Macc 12:44-45, which even uses the same verbiage in arguing that there would be no point in having a sin offering for the dead if there is no resurrection. That is merely another version of intercession of the saints on behalf of the dead. Otherwise we have most of humanity never being able to hear the Gospel, be baptized, etc. 1 Tim 2:1 "I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men."
pogi Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 1 minute ago, FormerLDS said: I believe God uses various means to accomplish His work. For some, it is the spoken word, for others it is the written word, for others still it could be the heavens themselves that declare His handywork, His righteousness and His glory. Do the heavens declare his name too, the principles of the trinity, his teachings on how to be saved? Surely every person alive has understood the principles of the trinity before death right? I mean, that is the only way to be saved, right? Because it is not enough to just believe on his name (as Mormons do), but you also have to have a correct understanding of the trinity too.
FormerLDS Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 10 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: Depends on whether you adhere to the view that required ordinances can be performed by proxy for the dead (pending the last judgment), as we know from 1 Cor 15:29? The great scholar James Barr was quite clear that Paul was speaking of a Jewish tradition of remission/expiation of sins for the dead by proxy -- as for example in 2 Macc 12:44-45, which even uses the same verbiage in arguing that there would be no point in having a sin offering for the dead if there is no resurrection. That is merely another version of intercession of the saints on behalf of the dead. Otherwise we have most of humanity never being able to hear the Gospel, be baptized, etc. 1 Tim 2:1 "I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men." In John chapter 10, Jesus Christ plainly tells us: "But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." (v26-28) They were made into sheep during mortality. Notice the Savior says "I give unto them eternal life". The sheep are they that have eternal life during mortality and they are separated from those who did not receive eternal life ("goats") during the final judgement in Matthew 25. I no longer believe in baptism for the dead. Once you leave this earth, you can't change your new address.
RevTestament Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 (edited) 28 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: I believe God uses various means to accomplish His work. For some, it is the spoken word, for others it is the written word, for others still it could be the heavens themselves that declare His handywork, His righteousness and His glory. Well, once again I feel your are misinterpreting those scriptures. They are meant to build faith in His word. Not to declare that man doesn't need to hear His word to be saved - or will be saved without hearing the Good News of Yeshua and following Him. IMHO you are rationalizing His word because if you don't, then your neat little theology falls apart. So to you it must mean such and such, and you are taken to illogical extremes. If Yeshua asks men to share His word, then will He not reward their efforts? You are stuck in a world of man's making or man's interpretation. But when one goes beyond a simple linear interpretatio/understanding, and considers the scriptures as a whole, the simplistic model based upon "the plain" reading of Paul simply falls apart. It's ashame that so many have chosen to fall into this trap, but it is conveniently attractive. Edited May 1, 2018 by RevTestament
FormerLDS Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 17 minutes ago, pogi said: Do the heavens declare his name too, the principles of the trinity, his teachings on how to be saved? Surely every person alive has understood the principles of the trinity before death right? I mean, that is the only way to be saved, right? Because it is not enough to just believe on his name (as Mormons do), but you also have to have a correct understanding of the trinity too. Does God have to be explained in terms that make perfect sense to still be God?
pogi Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 Just now, FormerLDS said: Does God have to be explained in terms that make perfect sense to still be God? I am not concerned about God being God. I am concerned about the qualifications you put on salvation. You state that one has to believe not just in the name of Jesus Christ, but in the trinity in order to be saved. Some peoples have no evidence of trinitarian beliefs being taught to them from people or heaven, or otherwise. Therefore they can't be saved according to you.
FormerLDS Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 4 minutes ago, RevTestament said: Well, once again I feel your are misinterpreting those scriptures. They are meant to build faith in His word. Not to declare that man doesn't need to hear His word to be saved - or will be saved without hearing the Good News of Yeshua and following Him. IMHO you are rationalizing His word because if you don't, then your neat little theology falls apart. So to you it must mean such and such, and you are taken to illogical extremes. If Yeshua asks men to share His word, then will He not reward their efforts? You are stuck in a world of man's making or man's interpretation. But when goes beyond a simple linear interpretatio/understanding, and considers the scriptures as a whole, the simplistic model based upon Paul simply falls apart. It's ashame that so many have chosen to fall into this trap, but it is conveniently attractive. Well of course you feel that I am misrepresenting the scriptures. If what I am telling you is true, then LDS theology is a Satanic deception. My goal is to be that person that facilitates your decision to believe what Jesus Christ says in His word about His free gift of eternal life before you leave this world. That's it. All of your worthy behavior isn't going to get you one inch closer to eternal life. Not now and certainly not after you die.
Anakin7 Posted May 1, 2018 Posted May 1, 2018 8 minutes ago, FormerLDS said: Well of course you feel that I am misrepresenting the scriptures. If what I am telling you is true, then LDS theology is a Satanic deception. My goal is to be that person that facilitates your decision to believe what Jesus Christ says in His word about His free gift of eternal life before you leave this world. That's it. All of your worthy behavior isn't going to get you one inch closer to eternal life. Not now and certainly not after you die. Worthy behavior keeps you in True Grace not to earn it.
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