Salvation and good works

[JAHS]

8 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Maybe we need a special Mormon Dictionary.

I use the  Encyclopedia of Mormonism. 

[FormerLDS]

On 4/28/2018 at 8:09 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

Since Mormonism differentiates eternal life (which everyone receives) from exaltation, the question may be more involved than just a matter of faith & works -- depending on whether holy ordinances or sacraments are considered "works."

What is clear is that faith & works always go together in tandem -- you can't have one without the other.  However, since one can do the right thing for the wrong reason, faith must be primary.  So good works may or may not be "evidence of salvation," as you put it, Jim.

The next question is whether faith is a gift which God chooses to give to some and not to others.  Is grace a free and unearned gift?  Judaism asserts that grace is free, and that one cannot earn the prize of salvation.  Paradoxically, however, that does not free one from the responsibility of following the commandments and doing good works.

Can you show us where everyone receives "etrenal life" in LDS theology?

You must have been absent that day in Gospel Principles class, but I think you are confusing the LDS doctrine of "immortality" with the LDS doctrine of "eternal life".

Whether intentional or not, there is a slight difference LDS doctrine with these two terms.  LDS "exaltation" and "eternal life" are the same things.

True To The Faith, Salvation

 

[Robert F. Smith]

44 minutes ago, JAHS said:

I use the  Encyclopedia of Mormonism. 

That would certainly be an excellent source, but it takes sides on which definitions are "correct," and therefore needs to be augmented with broad definitions and examples of usage -- the way the OED provides perspective.  We would also have to mine Charles Harrell's "This is My Doctrine," and similar works.  It would have to be put together by a very capable theologian or social-anthropologist who doesn't take sides.

[FormerLDS]

13 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

A great many words are synonyms (or nearly so) which are often used together for emphasis.  Many such expressions have become formulaic, particularly in a biblical or religious context.

Some examples:  "multiply and replenish," or in parallel, as in Psalm 38:1, "O Lord, rebuke me not in thy wrath: neither chasten me in thy hot displeasure."  Scholars refer to such word pairs as A&B words, and they typically occur in standard order, unless part of a larger chiasm.  Other pairs are complementary (merisms), or antithetical.

Immortality and eternal life each have the same basic meaning in English.  Maybe we should look at the Hebrew and Greek terms underlying them to be sure.  Have you done that yet?

Don't feel bad about this - most LDS don't know what their church teaches about the doctrine of "eternal life".  If you ask 9 out of 10 members "Do you believe you have eternal life?" they would answer "yes".

Most just don't realize what their church really teaches.  There are those who deliberately evade that question, preferring to mislead the investigator by assuming the question is actually referring to "immortality".

According to LDS theology, NO ONE can HAVE "eternal life" during mortality.

[FormerLDS]

On 4/28/2018 at 12:10 PM, theplains said:

Today's devotional by pastor Charles Price (on the topic of the Sheep and the Goats parable - Matthew 25:32)
says, "There is a day of judgment coming, but it will not be an exam on the finer details of theology. Our judgment
will be based on our works and particularly our works towards people. Our good works are not the cause of
salvation, but the effect. Salvation depends entirely on faith in Christ, and good works are the inevitable
consequence of a life changed by Christ."

In LDS theology, does one's own good works merit salvation or are good works the evidence of salvation?  
Basically, this is a cause and effect type of question. Does salvation (the cause) produce good works (the effect)
or do good works (the cause) produces salvation (the effect)?

Also, is the gift of eternal life (the effect) earned or granted freely by faith in Christ (the cause)?  Going back a
few months, do you recall earning a Christmas gift through your own efforts or did the giver (even a stranger)
give it to you without anything you had done?

Thanks,
Jim

Jim, you cannot use the word "salvation" because there are many LDS definitions.  

What you call "salvation" refers to the highest form of salvation possible - life with Heavenly Father.  What you are referring to as "salvation", LDS (who understand their doctrine) refer to as "eternal life".

Rephrase your question to: 

"In LDS theology, does one's own good works merit eternal life or are good works the evidence of eternal life?  
Basically, this is a cause and effect type of question. Does eternal life (the cause) produce good works (the effect)
or do good works (the cause) produces eternal life (the effect)?"

Any members who are honest with you will have to admit that works are required for eternal life.  The third Article of Faith states this plainly:

3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

Clearly, without "obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel" mankind may not be saved (referring to eternal life here).

[Robert F. Smith]

4 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

Can you show us where everyone receives "etrenal life" in LDS theology?

You must have been absent that day in Gospel Principles class, but I think you are confusing the LDS doctrine of "immortality" with the LDS doctrine of "eternal life".

Whether intentional or not, there is a slight difference LDS doctrine with these two terms.  LDS "exaltation" and "eternal life" are the same things.

True To The Faith, Salvation

 

You apparently missed the part of our discussion in which we talk about the multiple meanings of words like eternal or immortal, including in Mormonism.  Some claim that Mormonism is a universalist faith, while others deny it vehemently.  Some claim that it is humanist and naturalistic, while others staunchly maintain that it is a supernatural. enterprise.

Take as merely one example GNOLAUM  “eternal”  (BofAbraham 3:18).  What does that word mean?  

Hebrew ˁÔlām[1]; Aramaic ˁâl(a)mâ (*ˁawlăm, the augmentative original?); Hebrew ˁOlam “The-Eternal” = Phoenician ˁUlom = Oulomos of Mochus) "the name of a Phoenician old god, 'the ancient one' literally."  'El-ˁolam is used, for example, in early Canaanite divine names, and is the same as Hebrew ʼelohey ˁolam “everlasting God” (Isaiah 40:28; Psalm 90:2).  Cf. gibˁot ˁolam “everlasting hills” (Habakkuk 3:6); place name bet-ˁolam “house of eternity” (Ecclesiastes 1:4,10, 2:16, 3:14, 12:3,5,7), which appears in Egyptian transliteration as bЗt-ˁrm in the conquest list of Pharaoh Shishak I (Bubastite Portal 3:36); pitḥe-ˁolam “gates of eternity” (Psalm 24:7,9); “God has set eternity in their heart” (Ecclesiastes 3:11 NJB note b); the LXX Greek for ˁolam in Proverbs 8:23 is pro tou aionios “before time” (Ecclesiasticus-Sirach 16:26, 23:20, 24:9); Ugaritic ġlmt, “Darkness,” and zbl mlk ˁllmy “the Prince, the Eternal King,” and rpʼu mlk ˁlm “the Hero, the Eternal King.”   Note that Egyptian nb dt (or nb nḥḥ) “Lord of eternity” = Ptah (ANET 4-6) = Canaanite dū ˁôlami “lord of eternity”; Amarna Cuneiform -ilam, -olam.  Cf. Also Hebrew hălîkôt ˁôlām “ancient orbits,” or pathways taken by deities as they make their celestial circuit.  However, in Egyptian there are two kinds of "eternity," dynamic and static.

 

---

[1] First suggested by Robert F. Smith, “Some ‘Neologisms’ from the Mormon Canon,” 1973 Conference on the Language of the Mormons, May 31, 1973 (Provo: BYU Language Research Center, 1973), 64-68, online at https://www.scribd.com/document/363522963/SOME-NEOLOGISMS-FROM-THE-MORMON-CANON .

[Robert F. Smith]

19 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

.................................

According to LDS theology, NO ONE can HAVE "eternal life" during mortality.

So when do they have it?

[FormerLDS]

On 4/28/2018 at 12:44 PM, RevTestament said:

I really dislike this false gospel analysis. I think Jesus about sums it up.

"If you love me, feed my sheep."

If you don't feed His sheep, He may conclude you do not love Him, but simply give Him lip service. So will He save a recalcitrant servant? or does He love the faithful servant? He initially forgave both out of the goodness of His grace, but one does not stay true. Jesus gives several parables about this. Remember the servant who hid the one coin His master gave him?

One could just as easily claim that your attempt to obey the commandments is due to a selfish desire to merit eternal life, not because you love the savior.

[FormerLDS]

26 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You apparently missed the part of our discussion in which we talk about the multiple meanings of words like eternal or immortal, including in Mormonism.  Some claim that Mormonism is a universalist faith, while others deny it vehemently.  Some claim that it is humanist and naturalistic, while others staunchly maintain that it is a supernatural. enterprise.

Take as merely one example GNOLAUM  “eternal”  (BofAbraham 3:18).  What does that word mean?  

Please show us where LDS theology teaches that anyone can receive "eternal life" during mortality (i.e. right now) and I'll admit that I am wrong. 

[FormerLDS]

29 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

So when do they have it?

According to LDS theology, "eternal life" can only be obtained after mortality.

Jesus Christ offers eternal life to everyone today, if you would only believe in Him.  

Would you believe the words of Jesus Christ?

John 6:47 "He that believeth on my hath everlasting life."

Edited April 30, 2018 by FormerLDS

[JAHS]

19 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

According to LDS theology, "eternal life" can only be obtained after mortality.

Jesus Christ offers eternal life to everyone today, if you would only believe in Him.  

Would you believe the words of Jesus Christ?

John 6:47 "He that believeth on my hath everlasting life."

How is that verse and your interpretation explained when considering the following verse:  
"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." (Matt 24: 13)

Believing on Christ is certainly an important part, but it sounds like we have to endure to the end before we are saved, which means we are not actually saved until after this life is over.
 

[JAHS]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

That would certainly be an excellent source, but it takes sides on which definitions are "correct," and therefore needs to be augmented with broad definitions and examples of usage -- the way the OED provides perspective.  We would also have to mine Charles Harrell's "This is My Doctrine," and similar works.  It would have to be put together by a very capable theologian or social-anthropologist who doesn't take sides.

Well that might work as a source for the world in general, but what good does that do anyone who wants to know the truth from God? 

[FormerLDS]

48 minutes ago, JAHS said:

How is that verse and your interpretation explained when considering the following verse:  
"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." (Matt 24: 13)

Believing on Christ is certainly an important part, but it sounds like we have to endure to the end before we are saved, which means we are not actually saved until after this life is over.

While it does sound like the savior is saying we must "endure to the end" in order to be saved (i.e. through good works), the rest of Matthew 24 reveals that "the end" is the end of time when Christ returns to the earth, not "the end" of one's life.

Do you agree or disagree?

[RevTestament]

2 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

One could just as easily claim that your attempt to obey the commandments is due to a selfish desire to merit eternal life, not because you love the savior.

In God's economy love is not a simple emotion. Love is revealed in action. If you love someone, you act like you do. If you love God, you keep His commandments.

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will ^alove him, and we will come unto him, and make our ^babode with him.

Paranoid fear of works is a devil's game. I don't do good works to merit salvation. As Paul tries to point out, none can do this. I do because I love truth, and believe what the Savior taught. If one really wants to know God they have to go far beyond repenting and throwing themselves upon the mercy of Yeshua. They must do His will. If you are only content with the former, you are stuck as a "baby Christian" imho. 

[JAHS]

31 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

1 hour ago, JAHS said:

How is that verse and your interpretation explained when considering the following verse:  
"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." (Matt 24: 13)

Believing on Christ is certainly an important part, but it sounds like we have to endure to the end before we are saved, which means we are not actually saved until after this life is over.

While it does sound like the savior is saying we must "endure to the end" in order to be saved (i.e. through good works), the rest of Matthew 24 reveals that "the end" is the end of time when Christ returns to the earth, not "the end" of one's life.

Do you agree or disagree?

I agree. That is what I mean by "the end". Because when Christ comes we will know who has obtained eternal life (saved, exalted whatever the term),  because those people will rise in the morning of the first resurrection.
But we won't know until then.   That still means we need to endure to that end, which means nobody can declare that they are saved during this lifetime just for believing.
And we are NOT saved by our good works. We are saved by becoming the kind of person (perfected) that can merit eternal life (exaltation) with God. The works we do help us to become that person but do not by themselves get us saved.
 

[FormerLDS]

5 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

Paranoid fear of works is a devil's game. I don't do good works to merit salvation. As Paul tries to point out, none can do this. I do because I love truth, and believe what the Savior taught. If one really wants to know God they have to go far beyond repenting and throwing themselves upon the mercy of Yeshua. They must do His will. If you are only content with the former, you are stuck as a "baby Christian" imho. 

Do you believe that good works are required for you to receive eternal life?

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, JAHS said:

Well that might work as a source for the world in general, but what good does that do anyone who wants to know the truth from God? 

Depends on how insular the potential user is, although I would prefer that Mormons not be insular.

[RevTestament]

2 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

Do you believe that good works are required for you to receive eternal life?

Do I care? I am not really interested in that debate. I believe that even those who do not repent in this life can receive salvation. I believe salvation is salvation from hell. Does such a person receive eternal life? I think that is a somewhat amorphous term. I believe there are different levels of exaltation in eternal life. To the extent that those who do not follow Yeshua in this life ultimately repent and are resurrected, they will receive immortality. Do you believe that is eternal life? How about the wicked who will live again at the end of the thousand years? Matthew teaches us that the wicked too will be resurrected. Do they receive "eternal life?" If not, are they immortal? If not, why are they resurrected? If you can answer that then it seems eternal life as you conceive it may not be all that impressive.

[FormerLDS]

19 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

Do I care? I am not really interested in that debate. I believe that even those who do not repent in this life can receive salvation. I believe salvation is salvation from hell. Does such a person receive eternal life? I think that is a somewhat amorphous term. I believe there are different levels of exaltation in eternal life. To the extent that those who do not follow Yeshua in this life ultimately repent and are resurrected, they will receive immortality. Do you believe that is eternal life? How about the wicked who will live again at the end of the thousand years? Matthew teaches us that the wicked too will be resurrected. Do they receive "eternal life?" If not, are they immortal? If not, why are they resurrected? If you can answer that then it seems eternal life as you conceive it may not be all that impressive.

So on the one hand you claim that you "don't do good works to merit salvation", but, when pressed if good works are required for your eternal life, you really don't want to talk about it anymore.

Again, one could just as easily claim that the real reason you attempt to obey the commandments is a selfish desire to obtain eternal life, not because you "love the savior".

But I'm guessing you don't want to talk about that...

[FormerLDS]

38 minutes ago, JAHS said:

I agree. That is what I mean by "the end". Because when Christ comes we will know who has obtained eternal life (saved, exalted whatever the term),  because those people will rise in the morning of the first resurrection.
But we won't know until then.   That still means we need to endure to that end, which means nobody can declare that they are saved during this lifetime just for believing.
And we are NOT saved by our good works. We are saved by becoming the kind of person (perfected) that can merit eternal life (exaltation) with God. The works we do help us to become that person but do not by themselves get us saved.

We both agree "the end" in Matthew 24 refers to "the end of the world" (v.3) when Jesus Christ returns.  

He isn't saying you must endure to "the end" of your life.  Rather, that which you have must be capable of enduring the wrath of God at "the end" of the world - capable of saving you from His wrath.

In other words, there is a group that will be able to endure His wrath and a group that will not.

Do you agree or disagree? 

[pogi]

On 4/28/2018 at 11:10 AM, theplains said:

Today's devotional by pastor Charles Price (on the topic of the Sheep and the Goats parable - Matthew 25:32)
says, "There is a day of judgment coming, but it will not be an exam on the finer details of theology. Our judgment
will be based on our works and particularly our works towards people. Our good works are not the cause of
salvation, but the effect. Salvation depends entirely on faith in Christ, and good works are the inevitable
consequence of a life changed by Christ."

If works are not required for salvation, then why is final judgment based on our works?

If works are the "effect" of salvation, then why a final judgment at all if those who display good works are already saved?

I would simply rephrase the bold section to read like this - "Our works are not the cause of faith, but the effect.

We both agree that salvation depends entirely on faith in Christ, but that faith can waver throughout a life-time, which is why this life is a probationary state and final judgment is reserved until after this life.  It will be an assessment of our faith, based upon our works over our entire life-time.  

Edited April 30, 2018 by pogi

[RevTestament]

10 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

So on the one hand you claim that you "don't do good works to merit salvation", but, when pressed if good works are required for your eternal life, you really don't want to talk about it anymore.

Again, one could just as easily claim that the real reason you attempt to obey the commandments is a selfish desire to obtain eternal life, not because you "love the savior".

But I'm guessing you don't want to talk about that...

Well, thank you for your personal insight into my intentions. How about yours? Are you really interested in helping others towards salvation or eternal life? Is teaching them that works are not important really in their best interest? Or are you unwittingly doing the work of the adversary based upon a misinterpretation of Paul?
Rather than avoiding my questions perhaps you will tell me what does Revelation mean when it says the "rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished?" So the wicked will live again, but not have eternal life in your interpretation? That is the point I am getting at. You are asking a loaded question, which you want me to give a yes or no answer for. Rather than trying to argue reasons for my intentions - which you really do not know - perhaps it would behoove you better to try to understand what it is you are trying to ask me.

Matt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

So what does Yeshua mean here that few find the door which leads to life if even the wicked live again? Is that what you mean by having eternal life? Or is it simply an unmerited gift from God which even the wicked receive when Hell gives up the dead?

[pogi]

4 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

Jim, you cannot use the word "salvation" because there are many LDS definitions.  

What you call "salvation" refers to the highest form of salvation possible - life with Heavenly Father.  What you are referring to as "salvation", LDS (who understand their doctrine) refer to as "eternal life".

Rephrase your question to: 

"In LDS theology, does one's own good works merit eternal life or are good works the evidence of eternal life?  
Basically, this is a cause and effect type of question. Does eternal life (the cause) produce good works (the effect)
or do good works (the cause) produces eternal life (the effect)?"

Any members who are honest with you will have to admit that works are required for eternal life.  The third Article of Faith states this plainly:

3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

Clearly, without "obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel" mankind may not be saved (referring to eternal life here).

Thanks for clarifying our definition of salvation for Jim.  You are absolutely correct. 

 I think you also agree with the last sentence of your post when you get down to the nitty-gritty .  If we are judged by our works (according to the OP), and works are the effects of our faith (which is required for salvation), then mankind may not be saved without obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel as proof of faith unto salvation. 

[JAHS]

6 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

We both agree "the end" in Matthew 24 refers to "the end of the world" (v.3) when Jesus Christ returns.  

He isn't saying you must endure to "the end" of your life.  Rather, that which you have must be capable of enduring the wrath of God at "the end" of the world - capable of saving you from His wrath.

In other words, there is a group that will be able to endure His wrath and a group that will not.

Do you agree or disagree? 

To me when I say the end of your life I mean the end of mortal life when Jesus comes and we are resurrected or transformed to a resurrected state.
I agree with the rest but "that group" will not know they are part of that group until Jesus comes again.  That's why we must endure to that end until we find out if we are indeed part of that group.
We hope we will be and might even expect we will be but that's up to God.

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

According to LDS theology, "eternal life" can only be obtained after mortality.

Jesus Christ offers eternal life to everyone today, if you would only believe in Him.  

Would you believe the words of Jesus Christ?

John 6:47 "He that believeth on my hath everlasting life."

Would you agree that there is a universal resurrection to eternal life?  Or are they completely separate?

Quote

Jn 3:16 “whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” zōēn aiōnion

Jn 6:27,40,47 “Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: . . . And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. . . . Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.”

1 Tim 1:15 “which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.”

Dan 12:2 “everlasting life . . . everlasting comtempt”        ḥayyê ˁôlām … dîrʼôn ˁôlām

You will note that eternal life is set over against perishing, and that everlasting life seems to be a future state connected to resurrection.  In Daniel, everlasting life is set over against everlasting contempt.  The Book of Mormon and the book of Revelation have a Lake of Fire and Second Death for those who are evil (who have not been formally "justified" in the final judgment*).  So, what is "life eternal"?  Is eternal life the life enjoyed by all who find themselves in any of the Three Degrees of Glory?  Or only for those who are exalted to the Celestial Kingdom?  Or only those who gain the highest part of the Celestial Kingdom?  Are the answers clear and unambiguous?

*Which raises the question of justification by faith.

 

Edited April 30, 2018 by Robert F. Smith