Salvation and good works

[Anakin7]

    In the following Gospel Testimony by a Baptist Minister  Dr. Bob Moorhead who lived several decades ago shows and responds to FormerLDS OSAS house he now lives in.  Notice no Imputed righteousness of Christ Jesus or the no need to keep the 2 great commandments to enter Heaven,  But the absolute need of being a part of The Fellowship of The unashamed to enter Heaven of which FormerLDS seems to not want to be a part of but we LDS absolutely do.  Notice in the start of each paragraph Bob Moorhead uses "I", "Im" "My. "http://www.godswork.org/inspiration6.htm 

The Atonement It Is The Central Doctrine

Washing My Garment, Robe In His Blood

In His Eternal debt/Grace

Anakin7

LDS, Saint, Christian, Sentinel, Son Of Thunder, Kryptonian, Warrior

 

[Meerkat]

11 hours ago, bluebell said:

No, you're not wrong about that; you're wrong in trying to argue that it means anything significant.  Like the bible, LDS theology teaches that part of gaining eternal life is being resurrected.  If you're not resurrected yet, then you don't have eternal life yet because eternal life is being saved from physical death AND spiritual death.   You can't separate them.

Like the bible says, accepting Christ and covenanting with Him puts us on the path that leads to eternal life.  Being a Christian is a journey to become like Christ.  That is what the bible teaches and that is what LDS theology teaches.

Thank you Bluebell.  That's about as clear and logical a response to FormerLDS as there is.  

King Benjamin asked his people if they believed his testimony of the Savior.  The people said "Yea, we believe all the words which thou hast spoken unto us; and also, we know of their surety and truth, because of the Spirit of the Lord Omnipotent, which has wrought a mighty change in us, or in our hearts, that we have no more disposition to do evil, but to do good continually."

Mormons and other Christians of today would agree with that statement.  I think it's an excellent description of the effect faith in Jesus Christ has on a person.  I don't have a problem with a person believing "once saved, always saved" if it encourages good works and continued repentance. I also don't have a problem if a person feels they must do good works as part of their faith walk.  Either position can lead a person to salvation and eternal life.  A lot of FLDS interpretation strikes me as semantics.  There is enough ambiguity in the scriptures to support both positions.  

It's ambiguities like that that resulted in counsels of learned men attempting to codify what the scriptures mean in a creed.  That ambiguity also demonstrates the need for a modern day prophet.  I think that may be at the root of FLDS'S complaint.

Edited May 10, 2018 by Meerkat

[MormonMason]

19 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

Am I wrong in stating that LDS theology teaches that no one can have eternal life during mortality?

Yep.  Here is one of several LDS scriptures on the subject:

Quote

5 (May 17th, 1843.) The more sure word of prophecy means a man’s knowing that he is sealed up unto eternal life, by revelation and the spirit of prophecy, through the power of the Holy Priesthood.

(Doctrine and Covenants 131:5)

It's in official LDS scripture, Documentary History of the Church, and Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, too, but far too many members of the Church do not read their scriptures, or merely read them superficially, or even study the words of the prophets like they should.

[FormerLDS]

22 hours ago, smac97 said:

The Bible mandates obedience to the commandments of God.  Mandates.  "I care about" is not enough for me.  I need to see obedience as a necessity.

"If ye love me, keep my commandments" (John 14:15) is a very big deal for me.  And for God too, I think.  "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven"  (John 7:21).

I don't think you'll ever be able to persuade me that obedience to God is an only-obey-when-you-are-in-the-mood-and-otherwise-you-can-do-whatever-you-want-because-OSAS kind of thing.  That is the defect that, in my view, renders OSAS so unacceptable to me.  

Eternal security of the believer isn't an excuse to do whatever you want to do regardless how many time you repeat it.  Not what we believe.

Furthermore "if you love me" is not a mandate for anything.  It's a choice we are allowed to make, but whether we obey His commandments or not, CHRIST has met that requirement already for those who have eternal life.

Again, only those who have eternal life are capable of obeying the commandments because they love Him.  Everyone else obeys the commandments out of a selfish desire for eternal life as the true reason they think they are obeying the commandments.

[FormerLDS]

22 hours ago, smac97 said:

I disagree with OSAS on a fundamental level.  How it ultimately plays out in an individual's life is a secondary consideration.

But if you want an example of how OSAS can create problematic perspectives on behavior, here's "Exhibit A":

So you're telling me that one person's actions dictate what everyone believes?

I'm sure that I could find plenty of links about LDS members as well if you'd like, but I do not believe that one person's twisted beliefs are indicative of all LDS. 

[FormerLDS]

22 hours ago, smac97 said:

We work on having faith.  We repent.  We receive baptism.  We obey, and repent when we mess up.  We share the Gospel.  We serve our fellow man.  We do temple work.  We focus on our families.  

If you don't do these things, will you receive eternal life or not?

22 hours ago, smac97 said:

The irony is rather stunning.  Advocacy of OSAS, by definition, includes separating sin from the consequences of sin.  Sinning is A-OK because . . . OSAS.

The irony is that you think you're obeying the commandments and not sinning and somehow going to make it.

If you don't have eternal life now, you're never going to gain it after mortality.

[smac97]

50 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

Eternal security of the believer isn't an excuse to do whatever you want to do regardless how many time you repeat it.  Not what we believe.

Well, you'll have to explain that, because OSAS seems to shake out that way.

Again, how do you account for Robert Dear?

Quote

Furthermore "if you love me" is not a mandate for anything. 

Sure it is.  "Keep my commandments" is a mandate.

Quote

It's a choice we are allowed to make,

True.  We are allowed to choose to follow the mandate to "keep my commandments" or not.

But under OSAS, keeping or not keeping that mandate doesn't matter.

Quote

but whether we obey His commandments or not,

See!?  Obedience is optional under OSAS.

In contrast, we have John 7:21: "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

Quote

but whether we obey His commandments or not, CHRIST has met that requirement already for those who have eternal life.

So "eternal life" is available to those who refuse to "obey His commandments."  That's your position.  I understand that.  I just cannot accept it for myself.  

Obedience to God is inextricably linked to love for God.  Doing the will of God is inextricably linked to to "enter[ing] into the kingdom of heaven."  Doing the will of God is . . . obedience.  Works.  Faith.  The whole deal.

Quote

Again, only those who have eternal life are capable of obeying the commandments because they love Him. 

But a person who has eternal life is also free to not obey the commandments of God.  Right?  That's what "whether we obey His commandments or not..." seems to mean.

Quote

Everyone else obeys the commandments out of a selfish desire for eternal life as the true reason they think they are obeying the commandments.

I disagree.  "If ye love me, keep my commandments" (John 14:15) seems to motivate a lot of people.  And Jesus seems pretty clear in John 7:21 as well.

Jesus: "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

You: "but whether we obey His commandments or not..."

I cannot reconcile these two statements.  I feel that I must choose one or the other.  

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited May 10, 2018 by smac97

[FormerLDS]

22 hours ago, bluebell said:

22 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

Am I wrong in stating that LDS theology teaches that no one can have eternal life during mortality?

No, you're not wrong about that; you're wrong in trying to argue that it means anything significant.  Like the bible, LDS theology teaches that part of gaining eternal life is being resurrected.  If you're not resurrected yet, then you don't have eternal life yet because eternal life is being saved from physical death AND spiritual death.   You can't separate them.

Like the bible says, accepting Christ and covenanting with Him puts us on the path that leads to eternal life.  Being a Christian is a journey to become like Christ.  That is what the bible teaches and that is what LDS theology teaches.

Thank you for confirming Bluebell.   So, for clarity, when you said "You are always claiming that you know what LDS believe and teach but your arguments make it clear that you really don't get it", in reality, I actually do understand LDS theology perfectly well - I do "get it".

If resurrection is required prior to receiving eternal life, why does Jesus Christ plainly tell us that eternal life if received prior to the resurrection?

"Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."  John 6:54

What does "hath eternal life" in this verse mean?

Does "I will raise him up at the last day" mean resurrection?

[Calm]

Quote

gain, only those who have eternal life are capable of obeying the commandments because they love Him.  Everyone else obeys the commandments out of a selfish desire for eternal life as the true reason they think they are obeying the commandments.

If someone feels such love for God that they desire to have eternal life with him, is that a selfish desire?

[FormerLDS]

22 hours ago, bluebell said:

No, you're not wrong about that; you're wrong in trying to argue that it means anything significant.

The Bible says those who have Jesus Christ have eternal life and those who do not have Jesus Christ do not have eternal life (1 John 5:12).

Are you saying it doesn't mean anything significant if you do not have Jesus Christ/eternal life? 

[smac97]

13 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

Quote

I disagree with OSAS on a fundamental level.  How it ultimately plays out in an individual's life is a secondary consideration.

But if you want an example of how OSAS can create problematic perspectives on behavior, here's "Exhibit A":

So you're telling me that one person's actions dictate what everyone believes?

No.  I'm giving you an example of how OSAS can create problematic perspectives on behavior.

13 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

I'm sure that I could find plenty of links about LDS members as well if you'd like, but I do not believe that one person's twisted beliefs are indicative of all LDS. 

What is "twisted" about a person who, believing he has an eternal Get-Out-of-Jail-Free card, believing that he is saved no matter what he does or does not do (the sine qua non of "Once Saved, Always Saved"), believing that morality and obedience to God are - after being "saved" - merely optional, then proceeds to act in accordance with those precepts and live without any constraints on his behavior?

OSAS excuses everything.  Adultery?  No problem!  Once saved, always saved!  Theft? No problem.  Debauchery?  No worries!  Abandoning your children?  Fuggettaboutit!  Salvation is assured!

I normally don't really comment on the beliefs of others.  I'm more inclined to take a live-and-let-live approach.  But you seem to be asking us to consider your beliefs, so I'm explaining why I cannot accept this facet of them.

I just cannot accept a doctrine that divorces obedience from love of God.  

Thanks,

-Smac

[bluebell]

Just now, FormerLDS said:

Thank you for confirming Bluebell.   So, for clarity, when you said "You are always claiming that you know what LDS believe and teach but your arguments make it clear that you really don't get it", in reality, I actually do understand LDS theology perfectly well - I do "get it".

If you don't understand what the theology means, then no, you don't get it, regardless of whether or not you can parrot it back to us.  Think of it like this, my 4 year old repeats stuff back to me all the time.  Does that have any relevance on what he actually understands?  No.

Quote

 

If resurrection is required prior to receiving eternal life, why does Jesus Christ plainly tell us that eternal life if received prior to the resurrection?

"Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."  John 6:54

What does "hath eternal life" in this verse mean?

Does "I will raise him up at the last day" mean resurrection?

 

It means they are heirs to all that the Father has.  They are on the path that leads them to God and when they die they will receive all the blessings that they had claim of in mortality.  

[bluebell]

6 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

The Bible says those who have Jesus Christ have eternal life and those who do not have Jesus Christ do not have eternal life (1 John 5:12).

Are you saying it doesn't mean anything significant if you do not have Jesus Christ/eternal life? 

No, I'm saying that your argument (that the LDS church is a fraud because it understands what Jesus is saying there differently) is insignificant.  Whether or not someone believes they have eternal life right this second (like you do) or they believe that they have been promised eternal life and will receive it at death (as others do) has no impact on their salvation.  None.  

The question of 'when do we get eternal life' is irrelevant to the issues of salvation.  It doesn't matter what someone believes about it because that belief alone does not impact their salvation in any way.

Edited May 10, 2018 by bluebell

[FormerLDS]

22 hours ago, smac97 said:

It's also a gift.

I think Stephen Robinson's Parable of the Bicycle sums up my perspective on this.

Thanks,

-Smac

You miss the fundamental difference between what Jesus Christ offers you and what LDS theology offers you.

“I’ll tell you what. You give me everything you’ve got and a hug and a kiss, and the bike is yours.” Then I drove home very slowly because she insisted on riding the bike home."

The little girl could still boast that she obtained the bicycle because she did something.  After all, you'd have to admit that her earning 61 cents took some work, which makes the bicycle a reward, not a gift.

The Bible says in Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Jesus Christ offers you a free gift of eternal life today friends.  He did everything for you perfectly if you would only believe completely upon Him and not Him plus your 61 cents.

[FormerLDS]

22 hours ago, pogi said:

23 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

How do you know that Jesus Christ isn't using this site to show you the truth about LDS theology?

That would not be very sola scriptura of him. 

But what if someone on the site were actually using His words?  

22 hours ago, pogi said:

23 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

I've shown you that LDS theology teaches that you do not have eternal life.  That is truth.

I am ok with that.  I have the promise of eternal life.  That is good enough for me. 

If you can see that you do not have eternal life, then you should be able to see that you do not have Jesus Christ (1 John 5:12).  Are you really ok with that?

Consider the words of Jesus Christ friends.  If you leave this world without eternal life you shall not see life in the world to come.

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."  John 3:36

It's almost as if Jesus Christ Himself were actually using this site to try to reach through your religion and show you the truth isn't it?

22 hours ago, pogi said:

23 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

I've shown in the scriptures Jesus Christ says He gives eternal life to anyone today.  That is truth.

No, you've shown your out of context, faulty interpretation of scripture.  That is the truth. 

23 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

You must choose who you will believe: LDS theology or Jesus Christ.

False dichotomy.  Jesus Christ is the author of true LDS doctrine. 

I just showed you the words of Jesus Christ.  Plainly read from the scriptures.  

You're tight though about one thing; if you choose to believe LDS theology than the words of Jesus Christ will become a "false dichotomy".

[JayneAdelle]

On 5/8/2018 at 5:24 PM, theplains said:

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Romans 6:23).

Jim

That kind of "death" means spiritual death, which means a feeling of separation from God. I was mistaken when I said that everyone gets eternal life. In fact, everyone gets IMMORTALITY. No one simply ceases to exist--energy can be neither created nor destroyed, it merely changes form. To correct my earlier assertion, I quote Joseph B Wirthlin: "

Because of the sacrifice of the Son of God, the hour will come when “all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation” (John 5:28–29).

The just as well as the unjust are given a priceless and incomprehensible gift: immortality. Because of Jesus the Christ, we will live forever. We are immortal.

Eternal life, however, is something altogether different. Immortality is about quantity. Eternal life is about quality.

To use a metaphor, immortality is how long the dinner lasts. Eternal life is what is on the menu and who is with us at the table."

[smac97]

18 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

Quote

We work on having faith.  We repent.  We receive baptism.  We obey, and repent when we mess up.  We share the Gospel.  We serve our fellow man.  We do temple work.  We focus on our families.  

If you don't do these things, will you receive eternal life or not?

Resurrection?  Yes.

Exaltation?  No.

John 7:21: "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

"He that doeth the will of my father" = "We work on having faith.  We repent.  We receive baptism.  We obey, and repent when we mess up.  We share the Gospel.  We serve our fellow man.  We do temple work.  We focus on our families."

18 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

Quote

The irony is rather stunning.  Advocacy of OSAS, by definition, includes separating sin from the consequences of sin.  Sinning is A-OK because . . . OSAS.

The irony is that you think you're obeying the commandments

Trying to, yes.  And reptenting when I mess up.

18 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

and not sinning

I never said that.  I sin all the time.  

18 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

and somehow going to make it.

I believe that, yes.  2 Nephi 31:19 says it nicely:

Quote

And now, my beloved brethren, after ye have gotten into this strait and narrow path, I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save.

"Relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save."  Yes.

And 2 Nephi 25:23:

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For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

I believe we are, if we choose, saved by Grace.

18 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

If you don't have eternal life now, you're never going to gain it after mortality.

I'm not interested in lexical squabbles.

The Restored Gospel makes me a better person.  The Bible tells me that to love God is to obey Him, so I do.  The Bible tells me that "he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven" will "enter the kingdom of heaven," so I seek to do His will.  The Bible tells me that "except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish," so I repent.

The Book of Mormon tells me that I am or will be saved by Grace, so I have faith in that.  The Book of Mormon tells me to rely "wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save," so I try to do that.

I am happy and content as a Latter-day Saint.  I work hard to take care of my wife and children.  I try to obey God in ways large and small.  I repent when I screw up.  I "look forward unto Christ with steadfastness for the signs which are given" (2 Nephi 26:8).  

"And, if you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God."  (D&C 14:7)

"Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life."  (2 Nephi 31:20)

"And he shall come into the world to redeem his people; and he shall take upon him the transgressions of those who believe on his name; and these are they that shall have eternal life."  (Alma 11:40)

"Yea, verily I say unto you, if ye will come unto me ye shall have eternal life. Behold, mine arm of mercy is extended towards you, and whosoever will come, him will I receive; and blessed are those who come unto me."  (3 Nephi 9:14)

These are all quite comforting to me.

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

23 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

Quote

It's also a gift.

I think Stephen Robinson's Parable of the Bicycle sums up my perspective on this.

Thanks,

-Smac

You miss the fundamental difference between what Jesus Christ offers you and what LDS theology offers you.

I don't think I do.

Quote

“I’ll tell you what. You give me everything you’ve got and a hug and a kiss, and the bike is yours.” Then I drove home very slowly because she insisted on riding the bike home."

The little girl could still boast that she obtained the bicycle because she did something. 

Yes.  Metaphorically speaking, she did the will of the Father.  She obeyed Him.  And in obeying Him, she loved Him.

John 7:21: "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven ."

Quote

After all, you'd have to admit that her earning 61 cents took some work, which makes the bicycle a reward, not a gift.

I'm not particularly interested in such lexical squabbles.  By your reckoning, John 7:21 turns salvation into a "reward, not a gift" since it is contingent on the individual "do[ing] the will of my Father which is in heaven."

I'm just not hung up on such things.  The Scriptures tell me that obedience is a necessary thing for salvation, and that salvation comes by Grace.

If you want to argue whether the 61 cents actually went toward the purchase of the bicycle, or whether the father just put his daughter's coins in his pocket and paid for the bicycle entirely by himself, then have at it.  I'm not particularly invested in such a debate.  All I know is that I really, really want to give God my 61 cents.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited May 10, 2018 by smac97

[FormerLDS]

21 hours ago, MormonMason said:

But notice that even your list differs in a few places.  "Whoso eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood."  That has reference to what one might refer to as the Lord's Supper, Eucharist, or Sacrament.  What about those who believe but then do not participate in eating the flesh and blood of Christ? Do they truly have eternal life and keep it? That is a work.  A thing for believers to do.  The converse meaning of the text is that those who don't eat the flesh and blood of Christ won't have eternal life.

If "Whoso eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood" was a reference to the sacrament, as you say, why does LDS theology claim you do not have eternal life?  Could it be that you are incorrect?

21 hours ago, MormonMason said:

Another also is the present active, indicating, once again, part of a process.  John 10:28 has Jesus say, "I am giving to them life eternal."  That is what the Greek there means.  He does not use the aorist or perfect to indicate a completed, single action.  It is the present active.  It is a process of something that started but then continues.  Your reference to 1 Jn. 5:12 is mistaken.  It is composed of parts of 1 Jn. 5:11-13.  In that case the key Greek verb is an aorist indicative active, representing something accomplished in past time.  However, this is followed by participles and verbs in the present tense, modifying the sense of the first verb in the text.

Those who have the Son have eternal life.  Those who do not have the Son do not have eternal life. 

Past, present, future.  You either have eternal life or you do not.

21 hours ago, MormonMason said:

But believing or putting faith and trust in Christ (the 'event') does not get rid of the process that continues afterward.  That is where the Reformers got it wrong.  They have discarded the process in favor of the event and promise.  We also are told by Paul about the "earnest money" of eternal life that is the Spirit of God (2 Cor. 1:22; 5:5; Eph. 1:13-14).  That is roughly like a down payment or a pledge given that someone will complete a contract for purchase.  We are promised it on our acceptance of Christ but we still have to undergo the process that leads to the final result.  Just because one puts down a down payment or pledges payment does not mean one gets to keep or receive the deed to the home without some effort or without fulfilling the terms of the contract.  Right now the promise is but the pledge but the final result doesn't come until the redemption of the body.  That is what the Greek New Testament teaches as a whole.  We have the first installment but do not get the new house until the redemption of the body, which is yet future.  But Paul uses the contract metaphor because that is exactly what salvation and eternal life are.  They are part of a contract.  God has done his part but expects us to continue in the contract and to do what the contract requires.  As of now we get the first installment but do not get the final result until after the resurrection.

"Believe it as a whole" doesn't give you an explanation for "hath eternal life".  This most clearly this contradicts LDS theology.

No one is as blind as those who will not see, and those who will not see that which is obvious are blind indeed.

21 hours ago, MormonMason said:

Just because something is set in the present tense does not necessarily mean anything overly significant as the Reformers erroneously had thought.  The author of Ephesians also uses the aorist (expressing past event) to write that we "were raised together" and "were made to sit in the heavenly places" (Eph. 2:6).  Have we been raised from the dead already?

Not that it really matters at this point, but what does Jesus Christ Himself plainly say about being resurrected from death during mortality for those who HAVE ETERNAL LIFE?

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."  John 5:24

Could it be the reason you don't get it is that you don't have eternal life?

[smac97]

27 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

Could it be the reason you don't get it is that you don't have eternal life?

I don't presently have a resurrected, perfected, glorified body.  But I have an assurance from God that it's coming.  That's good enough for me.

In the LDS paradigm, "eternal life" means:

Quote

to live forever as families in God’s presence (D&C 132:19–20, 24, 55). Eternal life is God’s greatest gift to man.

Are we living "in God's presence" now?  Well, in a sense, we have a portion of this through baptism and the Gift of the Holy Ghost.  But in the main, eternal life is what comes after this current, temporary one.  So we don't have it yet (in its fullness), but we do have an assurance of how to pursue it if we so choose.

I am grateful for that.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited May 10, 2018 by smac97

[RevTestament]

23 minutes ago, bluebell said:

No, I'm saying that your argument (that the LDS church is a fraud because it understands what Jesus is saying there differently) is insignificant.  Whether or not someone believes they have eternal life right this second (like you do) or they believe that they have been promised eternal life and will receive it at death (as others do) has no impact on their salvation.  None.  

The question of 'when do we get eternal life' is irrelevant to the issues of salvation.  It doesn't matter what someone believes about it because that belief alone does not impact their salvation in any way.

Oh, silly Buebell. Don't you know that if you repent and believe in Yeshua, your Savior, that you must burn in hell for believing that you receive eternal life upon resurrection? After all Jesus said "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."  John 3:36.  Nevermind the fact that neither this scripture or any other says that you must believe you have eternal life now or you will burn in hell. Now hold on just a minute. You can't just do that above. You must do something else:
"Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."  John 6:54 Maybe there are other instructions in the scriptures too. Maybe, we must do the will of the Father: "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." 

Gosh, there just went my happy, go-lucky eternal life onlyism. Maybe you aren't so silly after all Bluebell. Maybe someone else is encouraging us to read the scriptures too narrowly. If they don't do the will of the Father, they may not make it despite their belief they have eternal life now and forever. 

[FormerLDS]

4 hours ago, MormonMason said:

23 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

Am I wrong in stating that LDS theology teaches that no one can have eternal life during mortality?

Yep.  Here is one of several LDS scriptures on the subject:

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5 (May 17th, 1843.) The more sure word of prophecy means a man’s knowing that he is sealed up unto eternal life, by revelation and the spirit of prophecy, through the power of the Holy Priesthood.

(Doctrine and Covenants 131:5)

It's in official LDS scripture, Documentary History of the Church, and Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, too, but far too many members of the Church do not read their scriptures, or merely read them superficially, or even study the words of the prophets like they should.

The D&C and BoM both say that one can have eternal life, that's never been the issue.  

LDS theology clearly states that no one can have eternal life during mortality.  

True to the Faith, Salvation (P. 150-153)

Since you've brought it up, how do you deal with the discrepancy between your personal belief about eternal life and what your church plainly teaches?

[FormerLDS]

55 minutes ago, bluebell said:

No, I'm saying that your argument (that the LDS church is a fraud because it understands what Jesus is saying there differently) is insignificant.  Whether or not someone believes they have eternal life right this second (like you do) or they believe that they have been promised eternal life and will receive it at death (as others do) has no impact on their salvation.  None.  

The question of 'when do we get eternal life' is irrelevant to the issues of salvation.  It doesn't matter what someone believes about it because that belief alone does not impact their salvation in any way.

How can having or not having eternal life be insignificant and irrelevant to salvation?

John 3:36 describes both those who have eternal life and those who do not have eternal life.

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."  

Do you think "shall not see life" is irrelevant to the issues of salvation?

Does having the wrath of God abiding on those who do not have eternal life seem insignificant to you?

[FormerLDS]

47 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Yes.  Metaphorically speaking, she did the will of the Father.  She obeyed Him.  And in obeying Him, she loved Him.

John 7:21: "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven ."

Did she save her pennies because she loved her father or because she wanted a new bike.

[mic drop]

[smac97]

26 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

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Yes.  Metaphorically speaking, she did the will of the Father.  She obeyed Him.  And in obeying Him, she loved Him.

John 7:21: "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven ."

Did she save her pennies because she loved her father or because she wanted a new bike.

Yes.  The two are not mutually incompatible.  

Her father wanted to giver her the new bike, and she wanted to receive what he's offering.  And she loves her father before, during and after the trip to the bike shop.  It's a win-win scenario!

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[mic drop]

You forgot the meme gif:

Thanks,

-Smac

 

Edited May 10, 2018 by smac97