Apostasy and restoration

[rongo]

I've been asked to speak at a stake youth conference in two weeks about the great apostasy and the restoration. I'm jotting down the concrete, unique blessings of the restoration outside of what is available to non-Mormon Christianity. (I'm going to shatter a mirror on the stand, hold up some of the pieces, and emphasize that non-Mormon Christianity collected and safeguarded pieces of the true mirror over the centuries, but they didn't have all of them. God needed to provide the entire mirror). 

Here are blessings and privileges of the restoration I have listed:

--- Fullness of understanding about the atonement and resurrection (especially in the Book of Mormon and D&C)

--- signs of the physical restoration (translated scriptures, modern-day revelation, etc.)

--- elements having to do with the lead-up to the "winding up scene" (Orson Hyde dedicating the Holy Land, restoration of the ten tribes, city of Zion and the gathering of Israel, etc.)

--- doctrine about the pre-existence (pretty much just a Mormon doctrine)

--- doctrine about exaltation

--- the temple

--- doctrine of the nature of God and man

What am I overlooking? What major blessings and privileges and evidence of the restoration am I missing?

Thanks!

[cinepro]

You could also include some of the things that haven't been restored yet...?

[bluebell]

43 minutes ago, cinepro said:

You could also include some of the things that haven't been restored yet...?

You make a good point.  We know that there are many things that are yet to be revealed.  Does that mean that we don't have the entire mirror yet?  It's an interesting question.

[rpn]

Isn't the biggest thing current access to prophets?   (I understood how important this is when I read the Left Behind series in which you saw that the first thing people needed and looked for after the Rapture was SOMEONE to interpret what was happening around them in scriptural and faithful ways.)

The opportunity that comes from baptism to have the gift of the holy ghost always.

The restoration was required for families to be sealed for eternity --- it is only after the restoration that the physical mechanism (and tech) to find and keep records that will allow that work to eventually be completed on earth.

And how about the equality of mankind, that God has planned for everyone to return to Him, and there are none that are more important than another.

 

Edited April 1, 2018 by rpn

[Duncan]

I would include discussion about this

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1999/06/preparing-for-the-restoration?lang=eng

We heard this weekend as the restoration happening line upon line , precept upon precept, with Joseph Smith being one important part of it, but it didn't begin there

[readstoomuch]

We have a very strong apostasy narrative in our Church.  That can mean that we are so good at making it sound like the original church was fallen so completely and thoroughly that there basically wasn’t anything left.  If someone doubts about the Church or the existence of God, they more often than not, end up being agnostic.  Kind of we are it or there is nothing. There is a book called Standing Apart about a conference at BYU around 2013 about the very topics you are discussing.  Terryl Givens has brought up this line of thinking in the Crucible of Doubt and The Christ Who Heals.  BH Roberts, Talmage and others of the time often used Protestant scholars who would go after Catholics and their tradition.  Yet, the scriptures were preserved and brought forward by other churches.  There are similar lines of thinking about the Bible.  We recently had a pastor join the Church in our ward from a Protestant background.  She especially struggles with things that are said in church about the Bible.  Especially with new translations and earlier versions (including the Dead Sea Scrolls), many corrections have been made.  I am not saying that there wasn’t an apostasy or loss of scriptural meaning and books.  Perhaps just not as profound as we believe.  I also have a convert father and my relatives are not LDS on that side.  I can be sensitive to blanket statements.  I would be happy if my older children went to any church instead of the secular humanist/agnostic trackthey are on.  

Take it for what it is worth, maybe it will give you some things to think about.  

[longview]

The Early Christian Church gradually apostatized and more of the righteous priesthood leaders were severely persecuted and martyred.  Which resulted in a "headless" organisation.  Thus leading to more and more fragmentation of the body of Christ until we see the numerous contending sects that prevailed before the days of Joseph Smith.

[CV75]

23 hours ago, rongo said:

I've been asked to speak at a stake youth conference in two weeks about the great apostasy and the restoration. I'm jotting down the concrete, unique blessings of the restoration outside of what is available to non-Mormon Christianity. (I'm going to shatter a mirror on the stand, hold up some of the pieces, and emphasize that non-Mormon Christianity collected and safeguarded pieces of the true mirror over the centuries, but they didn't have all of them. God needed to provide the entire mirror). 

Here are blessings and privileges of the restoration I have listed:

--- Fullness of understanding about the atonement and resurrection (especially in the Book of Mormon and D&C)

--- signs of the physical restoration (translated scriptures, modern-day revelation, etc.)

--- elements having to do with the lead-up to the "winding up scene" (Orson Hyde dedicating the Holy Land, restoration of the ten tribes, city of Zion and the gathering of Israel, etc.)

--- doctrine about the pre-existence (pretty much just a Mormon doctrine)

--- doctrine about exaltation

--- the temple

--- doctrine of the nature of God and man

What am I overlooking? What major blessings and privileges and evidence of the restoration am I missing?

Thanks!

Hindsight is a major blessing and privilege!

[Amulek]

23 hours ago, rongo said:

Here are blessings and privileges of the restoration I have listed:

--- Fullness of understanding about the atonement and resurrection (especially in the Book of Mormon and D&C)

--- signs of the physical restoration (translated scriptures, modern-day revelation, etc.)

--- elements having to do with the lead-up to the "winding up scene" (Orson Hyde dedicating the Holy Land, restoration of the ten tribes, city of Zion and the gathering of Israel, etc.)

--- doctrine about the pre-existence (pretty much just a Mormon doctrine)

--- doctrine about exaltation

--- the temple

--- doctrine of the nature of God and man

What am I overlooking? What major blessings and privileges and evidence of the restoration am I missing?

Those are defiantly most of the significant, broad brush items. At least, by "the temple" you mean everything that goes along with the restoration of the temple (return of Elijah, sealing keys, covenants, etc.). 

If not already covered, I would maybe consider working in Patriarchal blessings somewhere. That's something unique to Mormonism and relevant for a youth conference crowd.

 

[rongo]

11 minutes ago, Amulek said:

If not already covered, I would maybe consider working in Patriarchal blessings somewhere. That's something unique to Mormonism and relevant for a youth conference crowd.

It is in my notes; I forgot to type it in the list. Thanks for the reminder!

[pogi]

On 4/1/2018 at 12:17 PM, rongo said:

I've been asked to speak at a stake youth conference in two weeks about the great apostasy and the restoration. I'm jotting down the concrete, unique blessings of the restoration outside of what is available to non-Mormon Christianity. (I'm going to shatter a mirror on the stand, hold up some of the pieces, and emphasize that non-Mormon Christianity collected and safeguarded pieces of the true mirror over the centuries, but they didn't have all of them. God needed to provide the entire mirror). 

Here are blessings and privileges of the restoration I have listed:

--- Fullness of understanding about the atonement and resurrection (especially in the Book of Mormon and D&C)

--- signs of the physical restoration (translated scriptures, modern-day revelation, etc.)

--- elements having to do with the lead-up to the "winding up scene" (Orson Hyde dedicating the Holy Land, restoration of the ten tribes, city of Zion and the gathering of Israel, etc.)

--- doctrine about the pre-existence (pretty much just a Mormon doctrine)

--- doctrine about exaltation

--- the temple

--- doctrine of the nature of God and man

What am I overlooking? What major blessings and privileges and evidence of the restoration am I missing?

Thanks!

I don't see the restoration of the priesthood authority mentioned. 

You could also include the under-discussed/appreciated doctrines on the light of Christ (section 88 and 93), those are unique to Mormonism also and pretty central to our understanding of the creation and the governance of all things. 

[hope_for_things]

On 4/1/2018 at 12:17 PM, rongo said:

I've been asked to speak at a stake youth conference in two weeks about the great apostasy and the restoration. I'm jotting down the concrete, unique blessings of the restoration outside of what is available to non-Mormon Christianity. (I'm going to shatter a mirror on the stand, hold up some of the pieces, and emphasize that non-Mormon Christianity collected and safeguarded pieces of the true mirror over the centuries, but they didn't have all of them. God needed to provide the entire mirror). 

Here are blessings and privileges of the restoration I have listed:

--- Fullness of understanding about the atonement and resurrection (especially in the Book of Mormon and D&C)

--- signs of the physical restoration (translated scriptures, modern-day revelation, etc.)

--- elements having to do with the lead-up to the "winding up scene" (Orson Hyde dedicating the Holy Land, restoration of the ten tribes, city of Zion and the gathering of Israel, etc.)

--- doctrine about the pre-existence (pretty much just a Mormon doctrine)

--- doctrine about exaltation

--- the temple

--- doctrine of the nature of God and man

What am I overlooking? What major blessings and privileges and evidence of the restoration am I missing?

Thanks!

Could I recommend a couple resources which really ought to be considered whenever addressing the Apostasy.  The essays in this collection is just so well done and sheds so much light on this subject for a Mormon audience, it is an absolute must read on this topic. 

https://www.amazon.com/Standing-Apart-Historical-Consciousness-Apostasy/dp/0199348146/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1522701016&sr=1-1&keywords=standing+apart

http://www.mormonmatters.org/podcast-item/251-252-mormonisms-apostasy-narrative/

https://mi.byu.edu/mipodcast-wilcox-young-apostasy/

A couple other thoughts.  

1.  The dark ages weren't dark.  Amazing art, history, science, and Christian theological innovation comes from this time period.  Please don't refer to it as dark and lacking God's blessing, this is a horrible and false dismissal of so much good that happened during this 1500+ year time period that often gets completely maligned in this discussion.  

2.  I would emphasize Elder Uchtdorf's talk about the restoration being ongoing from a couple years ago.  We don't have a complete picture, that is even in our articles of faith, an attitude of looking forward to greater light and knowledge means that we need to be humble enough to recognize that there is much that we don't know and that we are wrong about today.  Its a position of being ever willing to learn and adjust to new light and understanding as we gain it.  

[rongo]

43 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

A couple other thoughts.  

1.  The dark ages weren't dark.  Amazing art, history, science, and Christian theological innovation comes from this time period.  Please don't refer to it as dark and lacking God's blessing, this is a horrible and false dismissal of so much good that happened during this 1500+ year time period that often gets completely maligned in this discussion.  

2.  I would emphasize Elder Uchtdorf's talk about the restoration being ongoing from a couple years ago.  We don't have a complete picture, that is even in our articles of faith, an attitude of looking forward to greater light and knowledge means that we need to be humble enough to recognize that there is much that we don't know and that we are wrong about today.  Its a position of being ever willing to learn and adjust to new light and understanding as we gain it.  

Thanks for those!

I completely agree. In my German 2 classes, we are studying the culture, significance, dialect, and contributions of Nordrhein-Westfalen (North Rhine - Westphalia; Germany's most populous state). We read an article and watched a documentary about Karl der Große (Carl the Great; Charlemagne). Many students were blown away by the scientific, philosophical, cultural, scholarly, etc. achievements and advances of the Carolingian Empire. I completely agree that the Dark Ages is a misnomer, and that isn't the approach I will take.

I'm going to begin by emphasizing how important the apostasy and restoration are, but also how difficult it is for LDS to emphasize this importance without being offensive or being too milquetoast or squishy about it, either (it can be a fine line, and difficult to do). The bulk will focus on the unique, special, and indispensable gifts of the restoration ("how great the need to make these things known"), but I think I will end talking about Kristar Stendahl's three laws. Stendahl was the dean of the Harvard School of Divinity and the Archbishop of Stockholm. During the vehement opposition to the temple there, he asked the Church if he could give a press conference from the stake center. In that talk, he announced that he was giving his full support for the LDS temple, and he encouraged everyone else to support it as well. He said he wanted to make three points that are important to consider: 1) Always get your information from authorized sources (if you want to know what Mormons believe, then ask Mormons, not Lutherans or Catholics), 2) Always compare apples to apples (never compare the best example of your faith with the worst example possible of the other one), and 3) Always leave room for "holy envy" (he said that Mormon doctrine about the need for temples and what happens in them is his biggest reason for supporting it, and that he wished the Lutheran Church had those teachings).

I think my closing thought is that a) we have access to the full, restored mirror, but b) many people outside of the Church do more with and appreciate their true mirror fragments more than we do with the full mirror. We should have "holy envy" and repent and do better when we see this in churches and philosophies that do not have the fullness of the restoration. 

[Spammer]

When you mention what Stendhal said regarding the need for temples and the Restoration, I would hope your talk will include some mention that temples and temple theology are also part of the Catholic tradition, Liturgy and church buildings, to include such ancient temple elements as divinization (theosis), the Holy of Holies, bread and wine, anointing with oil, sacred clothing (vestments), the seven branched candlestick, the veil, and incense. Protestantism has mostly forgotten the temple-centric worship of the Catholicism they sought to reform, eliminating most of the temple elements I mentioned in the process. 

Edited April 2, 2018 by Spammer

[rongo]

29 minutes ago, Spammer said:

When you mention what Stendhal said regarding the need for temples and the Restoration, I would hope your talk will include some mention that temples and temple theology are also part of the Catholic tradition, Liturgy and church buildings, to include such ancient temple elements as divinization (theosis), the Holy of Holies, bread and wine, anointing with oil, sacred clothing (vestments), the seven branched candlestick, the veil, and incense. Protestantism has mostly forgotten the temple-centric worship of the Catholicism they sought to reform, eliminating most of the temple elements I mentioned in the process. 

How do you feel about the pre-Vatican II vs. post-Vatican II liturgy?

You are very correct about the difference between "high church" versus "low church" ritual. There are some parallels between Mormon temple rituals and the Catholic Mass --- especially as they are perceived by believing Mormons and Catholics. 

Edited April 2, 2018 by rongo

[Spammer]

50 minutes ago, rongo said:

How do you feel about the pre-Vatican II vs. post-Vatican II liturgy?

You are very correct about the difference between "high church" versus "low church" ritual. There are some parallels between Mormon temple rituals and the Catholic Mass --- especially as they are perceived by believing Mormons and Catholics. 

Yes, there are many similarities, some of them uncanny, especially if you compare LDS temple rituals with Coptic, Eastern Orthodox and pre-Vatican II rites, which, to answer your question,  should give you a hint about what I think of the Novus Ordo Liturgy. Henry VIII stripped the altars in England and Vatican II stripped them everywhere else. Pope Benedict’s issuance of his letter ‘Summorum Pontificum’ was therefore a great day for the Latin Rite churches.

[Eek!]

 

On ‎4‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 1:17 PM, rongo said:

I've been asked to speak at a stake youth conference in two weeks about the great apostasy and the restoration....

What am I overlooking? What major blessings and privileges and evidence of the restoration am I missing?

"We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth."  - 7th Article of Faith

My understanding is that back in the Nauvoo and early Utah Valley eras, the missionaries used the claimed (and apparently demonstrable) existence of spiritual gifts,  in particular the gift of healing, as evidence that the LDS church was the authentic restoration of the New Testament church.  

 

 

Edited April 2, 2018 by Eek!

[Atheist Mormon]

On 4/1/2018 at 1:28 PM, cinepro said:

You could also include some of the things that haven't been restored yet...?

Things thant haven't been restored yet;

1-Immortality 2- FTL (faster than light) Travel 3- Telepathy 4-Intelligent communication with animals.........

 

[Kevin Christensen]

Look through the essays in Early Christians in Disarray:

https://publications.mi.byu.edu/book/early-christians-in-disarray-contemporary-lds-perspectives-on-the-christian-apostasy/

And also, you could look at www.margaretbarker.com for "Text and Context" and "The Secret Tradition".

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

 

[Gkmchardy]

I am curious to know why it is that a mirror is the object that has to be shattered? I too am familiar with this mental picture; used it on my mission. But why a mirror? Why not a ripped up book or shattered pot? Does anyone have any insight to where this whole mirror simile originated?

[rongo]

31 minutes ago, Gkmchardy said:

I am curious to know why it is that a mirror is the object that has to be shattered? I too am familiar with this mental picture; used it on my mission. But why a mirror? Why not a ripped up book or shattered pot? Does anyone have any insight to where this whole mirror simile originated?

I think it's because it's a stark image. As you said, a shattered pot or a ripped up book work as well. But, the sound and the sight of the shattering mirror, together with gathering up shards and the thought of even attempting to restore the mirror with them, is a lot more daunting and stark than it would be for a pot or a book (paper pieces can actually be taped back together, for example. Or potsherds can be glued back together. Both are ugly, but they work. Mirror powder/mirror slivers, though? Much different). 

I don't remember if I had posted in this thread (I haven't been around here for a couple of years) or not, but it was awesome when I did this! I had two fairly large mirrors, and I had put a paving stone beneath the pulpit. The **sound** of it shattering was louder and more attention-grabbing than I had envisioned. And, a group of new beehives on the first row were in the "Shamu splash zone" (the mirror shards ranged further than I had thought they would. Thankfully, no casualties). I had preemptively put a blanket under the paver so it could easily be cleaned up, and I brought a hand vacuum so I could get everything up afterwards.

My son is in Norway on his mission right now. He's made good use of little square mirrors we sent him for Christmas (the mirror thing is a hit with small children, who get to smash it with a rock or hammer). I also used it in deacons' quorums lessons. There is something very satisfying about breaking mirrors that isn't quite as cool as ripping paper . . . :) 

[Calm]

Rongo, welcome back!

[Damien the Leper]

Rongo! Good to see you!!

[Ahab]

5 hours ago, rongo said:

I think it's because it's a stark image. As you said, a shattered pot or a ripped up book work as well. But, the sound and the sight of the shattering mirror, together with gathering up shards and the thought of even attempting to restore the mirror with them, is a lot more daunting and stark than it would be for a pot or a book (paper pieces can actually be taped back together, for example. Or potsherds can be glued back together. Both are ugly, but they work. Mirror powder/mirror slivers, though? Much different). 

I don't remember if I had posted in this thread (I haven't been around here for a couple of years) or not, but it was awesome when I did this! I had two fairly large mirrors, and I had put a paving stone beneath the pulpit. The **sound** of it shattering was louder and more attention-grabbing than I had envisioned. And, a group of new beehives on the first row were in the "Shamu splash zone" (the mirror shards ranged further than I had thought they would. Thankfully, no casualties). I had preemptively put a blanket under the paver so it could easily be cleaned up, and I brought a hand vacuum so I could get everything up afterwards.

My son is in Norway on his mission right now. He's made good use of little square mirrors we sent him for Christmas (the mirror thing is a hit with small children, who get to smash it with a rock or hammer). I also used it in deacons' quorums lessons. There is something very satisfying about breaking mirrors that isn't quite as cool as ripping paper . . .

You said you did this on a stand?  Was that in a sacrament meeting?  And the bishopric didn't immediately stand up and go to you and escort you out of the building?  Did you give them advance warning first and also get their permission to use that visual aid?

The thing I think is remarkable about how the gospel was "lost" over the ages is that the gospel was still in the text of the Bible even though it wasn't correctly understood and properly taught.  The Bible still contains the fullness of the gospel, even now, even though many don't understand it correctly.  I believe that's because there was nobody around who had the true priesthood of God to teach it or the gift of the Holy Ghost to properly understand it, so people were left with only their own reasoning of the scriptures, with different people understanding different pages of scriptures differently than other people and with nobody to set them straight.  

I hope things went over well.  Glad to see you around these parts again.

[Damien the Leper]

31 minutes ago, Ahab said:

You said you did this on a stand?  Was that in a sacrament meeting?  And the bishopric didn't immediately stand up and go to you and escort you out of the building?  Did you give them advance warning first and also get their permission to use that visual aid?

The thing I think is remarkable about how the gospel was "lost" over the ages is that the gospel was still in the text of the Bible even though it wasn't correctly understood and properly taught.  The Bible still contains the fullness of the gospel, even now, even though many don't understand it correctly.  I believe that's because there was nobody around who had the true priesthood of God to teach it or the gift of the Holy Ghost to properly understand it, so people were left with only their own reasoning of the scriptures, with different people understanding different pages of scriptures differently than other people and with nobody to set them straight.  

I hope things went over well.  Glad to see you around these parts again.

I'm pretty sure that @rongo was the bishop of his ward at this time.