Elder Hales Has Died

[smac97]

Shared article from KSL
Robert D. Hales, LDS Church apostle, dies at 85
http://www.ksl.com/index.php?sid=46007683&nid=968

[thesometimesaint]

Condolences to family and friends. He always seemed to me to be a humble and gentle servant of the Lord.

[Tacenda]

12 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

Condolences to family and friends. He always seemed to me to be a humble and gentle servant of the Lord.

I agree, I always liked him. I'm sad that he had to struggle so.  ETA: I and others have noticed Pres. Uchtdorf's eyes these last two days. They look very sad or very tired, I wonder if it has to do with Elder Hales' health and Pres. Monson's.

Edited October 1, 2017 by Tacenda

[JAHS]

From an article a couple days ago, Church spokesman Eric Hawkins said: 

"To permit their continued medical attention to Elder Hales, his doctors have determined that he should not participate in the Church's general conference this weekend."

I don't know how bad of a condition he was in, but so glad he did not try to attend conference, if it even  was a consideration. 
I learned much from his inspired talks at every conference. He will be missed.

[RevTestament]

10 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

Condolences to family and friends. He always seemed to me to be a humble and gentle servant of the Lord.

Ditto. Basically exactly what I was going to say when I saw the thread. I will add the condolences of my entire family, but esp on the behalf of my second son who is currently serving a mission.

[Avatar4321]

I'm sorry to hear of his passing. I suspect our beloved prophet won't be with us much longer either

[Duncan]

I wonder if they'll call a new Apostle prior to next conference? like not today's conference but April 's

[Jeanne]

So sorry to hear this.  I was not as familiar with him as others..but this is always a sad thing.  Much love and comfort to the members, family and friends.

[Guest]

It is sad that such private matters, happen so publicly. But those who lead us are dearly loved. Thus every illness and misfortune happens on a world stage. May God bless his family, and may God lift up his fellow Apostles with such sad news. Also, all who are now speaking following the sad news. My heart breaks for them all. 

[JAHS]

A rather prophetic statement in an excerpt from Elder Hales' talk that he was planning to give in Conference, that was read by Elder Anderson at the end of his talk today.

“When we choose to have faith we are prepared to stand in the presence of God. After the Savior’s crucifixion, He appeared only to those who had been faithful in the testimony of Him while they lived in mortality. Those who rejected the testimonies of the prophets could not behold the Savior’s presence nor look upon His face. Our faith prepares us to be in the presence of God.”

He is now standing in the presence of God.

[Five Solas]

3 hours ago, JAHS said:

A rather prophetic statement in an excerpt from Elder Hales' talk that he was planning to give in Conference, that was read by Elder Anderson at the end of his talk today.

“When we choose to have faith we are prepared to stand in the presence of God. After the Savior’s crucifixion, He appeared only to those who had been faithful in the testimony of Him while they lived in mortality. Those who rejected the testimonies of the prophets could not behold the Savior’s presence nor look upon His face. Our faith prepares us to be in the presence of God.”

He is now standing in the presence of God.

Although that isn't quite true, is it?  Jesus appeared to Peter (Cephas), and recall that Peter denied Him not once, but three times (John 18:13-27).  Faithful in the testimony?--yeah, not so much.  And what of Thomas, who bluntly told the other disciples, "Unless... I will never believe" (John 20:25)? 

If Scripture teaches us anything, it's that God doesn't depend on us.  God doesn't depend on our faith, our strength of character, our volition, etc.--rather he appears to whom he wants to reveal himself.  And ultimately it is God who gives us faith (Romans 12:3).  Because if it were left up to us & our own agency/fee will--well, see Romans 3:10-12.

If it's too soon to discuss the words/legacy of Hales, please forgive (and if that's the case, please move to Social Hall).  

--Erik

___________________________________________

The last enemy to be destroyed is death

--1 Corinthians 15:26

[Rain]

6 minutes ago, Five Solas said:

Although that isn't quite true, is it?  Jesus appeared to Peter (Cephas), and recall that Peter denied Him not once, but three times (John 18:13-27).  Faithful in the testimony?--yeah, not so much.  And what of Thomas, who bluntly told the other disciples, "Unless... I will never believe" (John 20:25)? 

If Scripture teaches us anything, it's that God doesn't depend on us.  God doesn't depend on our faith, our strength of character, our volition, etc.--rather he appears to whom he wants to reveal himself.  And ultimately it is God who gives us faith (Romans 12:3).  Because if it were left up to us & our own agency/fee will--well, see Romans 3:10-12.

If it's too soon to discuss the words/legacy of Hales, please forgive (and if that's the case, please move to Social Hall).  

--Erik

___________________________________________

The last enemy to be destroyed is death

--1 Corinthians 15:26

I think that saying Peter and Thomas were not faithful would not be really looking upon their hearts. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

11 minutes ago, Five Solas said:

If Scripture teaches us anything, it's that God doesn't depend on us.  God doesn't depend on our faith, our strength of character, our volition, etc.--rather he appears to whom he wants to reveal himself. 

You just reminded me of this passage from Browning's 'Caliban upon Setebos':

Quote

'Am strong myself compared to yonder crabs 

That march now from the mountain to the sea; 

'Let twenty pass, and stone the twenty-first, 

Loving not, hating not, just choosing so. 

'Say, the first straggler that boasts purple spots 

Shall join the file, one pincer twisted off; 

'Say, this bruised fellow shall receive a worm, 

And two worms he whose nippers end in red; 

As it likes me each time, I do: so He. 

 

[Five Solas]

22 minutes ago, Rain said:

I think that saying Peter and Thomas were not faithful would not be really looking upon their hearts. 

"For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks."

--Matthew 12:34 (ESV)

[Rain]

6 minutes ago, Five Solas said:

"For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks."

--Matthew 12:34 (ESV)

What do you mean by that? 

[Five Solas]

22 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

You just reminded me of this passage from Browning's 'Caliban upon Setebos':

Okay, I'm pretty sure that's a first. 

Are you suggesting Scripture teaches us Setebos?  Or are you claiming God's lack of dependency on human will & initiative (as I described it) implies Setebos?   

--Erik

[Five Solas]

6 minutes ago, Rain said:

What do you mean by that? 

You suggested that to judge the actual words (Peter's denial of Christ and Thomas's refusal to believe) somehow misses the intent of these men's hearts.  But Scripture doesn't so readily disconnect words and hearts--as you did in your post.

--Erik  

PS.  I'm not saying I would have been any better...

[Rain]

21 minutes ago, Five Solas said:

You suggested that to judge the actual words (Peter's denial of Christ and Thomas's refusal to believe) somehow misses the intent of these men's hearts.  But Scripture doesn't so readily disconnect words and hearts--as you did in your post.

--Erik  

PS.  I'm not saying I would have been any better...

Thanks for explaining.  I don't feel the scripture really fits, but I apprecite you explaining what you meant. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

2 hours ago, Five Solas said:

Are you suggesting Scripture teaches us Setebos?

No, I think you are. And I completely disagree with your interpretations ... for reasons both scriptural and personal.

Quote

  Or are you claiming God's lack of dependency on human will & initiative (as I described it) implies Setebos?   

Pretty much. And I find your Calvinist god as terrifyingly barbaric and immoral as Browning apparently did.

[Stargazer]

2 hours ago, Five Solas said:

Although that isn't quite true, is it?  Jesus appeared to Peter (Cephas), and recall that Peter denied Him not once, but three times (John 18:13-27).  Faithful in the testimony?--yeah, not so much.  And what of Thomas, who bluntly told the other disciples, "Unless... I will never believe" (John 20:25)? 

If Scripture teaches us anything, it's that God doesn't depend on us.  God doesn't depend on our faith, our strength of character, our volition, etc.--rather he appears to whom he wants to reveal himself.  And ultimately it is God who gives us faith (Romans 12:3).  Because if it were left up to us & our own agency/fee will--well, see Romans 3:10-12.

If it's too soon to discuss the words/legacy of Hales, please forgive (and if that's the case, please move to Social Hall).  

--Erik

___________________________________________

The last enemy to be destroyed is death

--1 Corinthians 15:26

I do believe that saying Peter's momentary lack of fortitude and Thomas' momentary lack of faith cancel's out all their previous faithfulness is a bit much. Especially since Jesus knew in advance that Peter would deny him three times -- and do you not think that Jesus knew in advance that Thomas would refuse to believe?

Which, by the way, should make Thomas the patron saint of atheists who want a sign.  LOL.  Well, maybe that's a bit harsh.  To Thomas, anyway.

[Bernard Gui]

   Duplicate

 

 

Edited October 2, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, Five Solas said:

Although that isn't quite true, is it?  Jesus appeared to Peter (Cephas), and recall that Peter denied Him not once, but three times (John 18:13-27).  Faithful in the testimony?--yeah, not so much.  And what of Thomas, who bluntly told the other disciples, "Unless... I will never believe" (John 20:25)? 

Peter was at the tomb and witnessed the signs of the resurrection, as did John. They were both in the house when Jesus appeared to the disciples. They touched Him. They believed and were blessed. They witnessed the resurrection and never denied it. In like manner Paul also saw and believed and became a witness.

I think Thomas gets a bum rap. By the time he saw and touched the Lord, the others had already seen and touched Him. He believed after he saw and touched the Lord, just like they did. They did this so they could be His eye witness. He did not condemn Thomas, but rather blessed him for believing.

 He also blesses those who do not see but believe - those who have not seen the Lord but accept the testimony of the disciples - us.

Edited October 2, 2017 by Bernard Gui

[mnn727]

15 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

You just reminded me of this passage from Browning's 'Caliban upon Setebos':

 

What?!?!?!? 

[ksfisher]

20 hours ago, JAHS said:

A rather prophetic statement in an excerpt from Elder Hales' talk that he was planning to give in Conference, that was read by Elder Anderson at the end of his talk today.

“When we choose to have faith we are prepared to stand in the presence of God. After the Savior’s crucifixion, He appeared only to those who had been faithful in the testimony of Him while they lived in mortality. Those who rejected the testimonies of the prophets could not behold the Savior’s presence nor look upon His face. Our faith prepares us to be in the presence of God.”

He is now standing in the presence of God.

It was related by several speakers the number of drafts they went through in preparing their conference talks.  I think we can excuse Elder Hales for perhaps not having time to revise.

Perhaps Elder Anderson could have clarified it, but I don't think Elder Anderson had other things on his mind.

Peter did not reject the Savior, but showed weakness in a dangerous situation.

Edited October 2, 2017 by ksfisher

[Calm]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliban_upon_Setebos