Gay Clergy- UMC Church Division

[HappyJackWagon]

20 minutes ago, juliann said:

You aren't using the word theology correctly. Theology is the study of. Or a discussion of. By definition, it is the talking about a belief system. It is not the doctrine itself. Mormonism doesn't have a systematic theology so an appeal to theology as the basis of "truth" is misplaced. 

As long as Mormons accept Genesis, male and female are most certainly in the creation narrative. What becomes problematic is when all creation accounts are ignored as they say that creation happened through "word."  Without the element that is always inserted, biological reproduction, the gay debate changes considerably. 

*What difference would it make who was sexually attracted to who if attraction was not the basis of eternal partnerships? The strength of the Mormon position is that is protects the female role in creation. 

Yes, I'm using theology correctly (though I may be the only one) since my claim this whole time has been that the church does not have a systematic theology about spiritual creation. I have accepted in multiple posts that there have been a variety of teachings and doctrines, yet there is not an organized, systematic theology that attempts to answer the questions about how creation occurs. If there is no discussion or study or understanding about how spiritual creation takes place, it is a fallacy then to claim that gay partnerships could never create because of an inability to biologically reproduce. So yes, the gay debate changes considerably.

*That is a great question. Even though I'm arguing that we don't have enough information to claim that biological reproduction is an eternal necessity I've fallen into the same trap of expecting sxual activity to at least be a part of an eternal partnership, but I suppose it isn't necessarily so.

The female role in creation is merely implied. Again, since we don't know how creation works, we don't really know. We are told we have a Heavenly Mother, yet we know almost nothing about her. We know that she isn't included in the creation narrative in the scriptures or in the temple. So calling that a Mormon strength is a bit of a stretch. The implication is wonderful, but the doctrine is only an inch deep.

[HappyJackWagon]

51 minutes ago, Darren10 said:

Yes. If these blessings are equally for homosexual couples then why does it not say so? 

Because it has hardly been a question in the past like it is now. Blacks and the priesthood was never a problem...until it was. Sexism in the church was never an issue...until it was. Once the problems were identified, attempts were made to correct the problems.

There is virtually nothing in scripture about h0mosxuality at all. Why? Probably because it wasn't an issue of prominence like it is today. The culture didn't even allow for the possibility of rethinking the issue. 

[Darren10]

2 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I lie? Calm down and try to be a little more responsible in your communication and less offensive.

I see 3 options and you can correct me where I'm wrong.

1- Gays will be alone in eternity because gay relationships will not be permitted

2- Gays will not be alone in eternity because they will not be gay any longer. They will be straight and therefore have a straight marriage.

3- Gays will continue to be gay but will engage in an eternal mixed orientation marriage

Please add other possibilities to my list if you see them. If you happen to agree with those possibilities, please show may where the church specifically teaches about any of them. I don't think you'll find anything. Why? Because the church doesn't have anything to offer gays. They are not included in the plan of happiness and therefore have not been addressed. The church doesn't have an answer for them.

Personally, I don't find any of these options realistic, healthy, or aspirational which again makes my point that the church has ZERO to offer gay people.

Don't cite me as something blatantly false and and I won't call you a liar. And don't call me names which are inaccurate and I won't get offended (I'm sure you agree)

2 wins the day. 

Quote

I though that at some point down the road, I’d quit dating women and start going back to church. Then something unexpected happened. I fell in love with a woman I’d been dating. It surprised me because I didn’t really think I’d fall in love (although I’m not sure what I thought would happen since I was dating women). But despite the fact that my feelings for her were so strong, my testimony carried a great deal of weight too—both in the sense of a strong conviction of the gospel as well as the weight of the conflict.

After we'd been together about a year and a half, we broke up. I dated more women in an effort to get over her, but it didn’t work very well. When I moved out of state, I had this feeling—this impression—that I should find out what ward I lived in and go talk to the bishop. I wasn't even sure what to say. I just felt like it was important.

In hindsight, I can see why. By the grace of God, that bishop was truly Christlike. He used the power of the priesthood in my behalf, just as the divine plan had been designed. He lived the scripture “No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned” (D&C 121:41).

That bishop met with me for almost three years, even when I got back with my girlfriend for a while.

(snip)

With the help of the bishop, I started reading scriptures every day and attending church more often, even though my faith was difficult to maintain. Many times I was unable to feel God’s presence. Prayers seemed far more like monologues than dialogues.

(Snip)

To this day, I let people in certain situations know about my background when I feel a need to educate and inform, to help increase understanding about same-sex attraction and LGBT Mormons who are looking to find a sense of belonging among the community of Saints. I do get treated differently sometimes, even avoided or shunned by a few. More often, I’ve gained greater friendships and found I have more in common with others than I thought.

(Snip)

My faith is more seasoned now. I depend on the Lord in all things and have grown to trust that somehow, someway, all of this truly is giving us experience. Even though the very jaws of hell have seemed to gape open wide after me, at several times throughout my life, I do have a perfect knowledge that it is for my good (see D&C 122:7).

That is a lot of good offerings for a church that has notihng to offer gays. 

https://mormonandgay.lds.org/articles/lauries-story

Now, as for gay feelings "going away", yes, I am convinced they will in the afterife. How and under what conditions I do not know, but they will lest the Atonement be ofr heterosexuals only which I reject.

Quote

The intensity of same-sex attraction is not a measure of your faithfulness. Many people pray for years and do all they can to be obedient in an effort to reduce same-sex attraction, yet find they are still attracted to the same sex. Same-sex attraction is experienced along a spectrum of intensity and is not the same for everyone. Some are attracted to both genders, and others are attracted exclusively to the same gender. For some, feelings of same-sex attraction, or at least the intensity of those feelings, may diminish over time. In any case, a change in attraction should not be expected or demanded as an outcome by parents or leaders.

The intensity of your attractions may not be in your control; however, you can choose how to respond. Asking the Lord what you can learn from this experience can focus your faith on an outcome you can control. Turning your life over to God is an important act of faith that brings great blessings now and even greater blessings in the world to come.

https://mormonandgay.lds.org/articles/frequently-asked-questions

Repentance is a change of heart. Homosexual activity is outside the bounds of sexuaL exoression the Lord has set and so must be repented of. To say that gays won't change is to say they won't repent and you pronounce damnation upon them. That's not nice. 

Quote

“But with the grace of God, her own tenacity, and the help of scores of Church leaders, friends, family members, and professionals, this importuning mother has seen her son come home to the promised land. Sadly we acknowledge that such a blessing does not, or at least has not yet, come to all parents who anguish over a wide variety of their children’s circumstances, but here there was hope. And, I must say, this son’s sexual orientation did not somehow miraculously change—no one assumed it would. But little by little, his heart changed” (“Behold Thy Mother,” Oct. 2015 general conference).

https://mormonandgay.lds.org/articles/jesus-christ-can-change-our-hearts

Quote

“Most of us are born with [or develop] thorns in the flesh, some more visible, some more serious than others. We all seem to have susceptibilities to one disorder or another, but whatever our susceptibilities, we have the will and the power to control our thoughts and our actions. This must be so. God has said that he holds us accountable for what we do and what we think, so our thoughts and actions must be controllable by our agency. Once we have reached the age or condition of accountability, the claim ‘I was born that way’ does not excuse actions or thoughts that fail to conform to the commandments of God. We need to learn how to live so that a weakness that is mortal will not prevent us from achieving the goal that is eternal.

“God has promised that he will consecrate our afflictions for our gain (see 2 Ne. 2:2). The efforts we expend in overcoming any inherited [or developed] weakness build a spiritual strength that will serve us throughout eternity. Thus, when Paul prayed thrice that his ‘thorn in the flesh’ would depart from him, the Lord replied, ‘My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness.’ Obedient, Paul concluded:

“‘Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

“‘Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ’s sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong’ (2 Cor. 12:9–10).

“Whatever our susceptibilities or tendencies [feelings], they cannot subject us to eternal consequences unless we exercise our free agency to do or think the things forbidden by the commandments of God. For example, a susceptibility to alcoholism impairs its victim’s freedom to partake without addiction, but his free agency allows him to abstain and thus escape the physical debilitation of alcohol and the spiritual deterioration of addiction.

https://www.lds.org/manual/eternal-marriage-student-manual/same-gender-attraction?lang=eng

consecrating our suffering fir our gain is nothing but vampnity if we cannot change. 

As I see it, denying gays can change is a durect afrint to the Atonement and quite disdainful of gays as children of God. There is no such thing as "I cannot change" in an eternal sense and there is no doctrine in the LDS Church which denies homosexuals exaltation if they live the same covenants as anyone else. 

poster removed

[HappyJackWagon]

15 minutes ago, Darren10 said:

Don't cite me as something blatantly false and and I won't call you a liar. And don't call me names which are inaccurate and I won't get offended (I'm sure you agree)

 

Yes, I agree about not calling names. I don't recall having called you a name. If you can show me where I have called you a name I will apologize, but I don't think you can. On the other hand I can cite you as calling me a liar.

Either way, I think we're done here.

[juliann]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Yes, I'm using theology correctly (though I may be the only one) since my claim this whole time has been that the church does not have a systematic theology about spiritual creation. I have accepted in multiple posts that there have been a variety of teachings and doctrines, yet there is not an organized, systematic theology that attempts to answer the questions about how creation occurs. If there is no discussion or study or understanding about how spiritual creation takes place, it is a fallacy then to claim that gay partnerships could never create because of an inability to biologically reproduce. So yes, the gay debate changes considerably.

*That is a great question. Even though I'm arguing that we don't have enough information to claim that biological reproduction is an eternal necessity I've fallen into the same trap of expecting sxual activity to at least be a part of an eternal partnership, but I suppose it isn't necessarily so.

The female role in creation is merely implied. Again, since we don't know how creation works, we don't really know. We are told we have a Heavenly Mother, yet we know almost nothing about her. We know that she isn't included in the creation narrative in the scriptures or in the temple. So calling that a Mormon strength is a bit of a stretch. The implication is wonderful, but the doctrine is only an inch deep.

When you say there is no "theology" on creation that isn't accurate. What you mean to say is there is little doctrine. 

You continue to return to LDS additions to the Bible as if that is all there is in our belief system. I have done graduate work in biblical studies. You would have to go to Bible schools to find anyone denying a council of gods. There is a ton of literature on this.  LDS expand on that council. God to LDS means, by definition, male and female. In our culture, we always fall back to the "he" part but no one, NO one is going to deny that ultimately that god is a man and a woman. We get around that, of course, by subordinating and diminishing the woman but that isn't going to hold up forever.  I do not believe in what I call the eternal honeymoon sealing that seems so prevalent today. I believe sealings are to build a heavenly family, not isolate us into little honeymoon cottages with a spouse. Our current idea of sealings/families is exclusive not inclusive and I think that is why we are having so much trouble accounting for those who do not fit that construct because of their sexual leanings. What I reject is the idea that men can create without a woman and to me that is where gay sealings become problematic. 

The theology, i.e., study/discourse part of this is happening now.  The female/goddess influence in the Bible has to be dug out, especially in the OT. Our scholars are putting women back into our church history as well. There has to be a theological foundation for doctrine (however you define it)  to be built...or restored. The LDS church is uniquely positioned for this because of that inch deep Heavenly Mother. The more shallow the better, actually, because that means less time wasted on eliminating misogyny.  

Once the obsession with eternal sex is removed by acknowledging that it has never been presented as part of creation (a type perhaps, but not the real thing) rational discussion can occur.  (One can fantasize all they want about forever sex but just keep it apart from creation.)

I'm having a senior moment. I know one of the Brethren said that we lack the keys for resurrection....didn't he also say creation? 

[USU78]

3 hours ago, Darren10 said:

Don't cite me as something blatantly false and and I won't call you a liar. And don't call me names which are inaccurate and I won't get offended (I'm sure you agree)

2 wins the day. 

That is a lot of good offerings for a church that has notihng to offer gays. 

https://mormonandgay.lds.org/articles/lauries-story

Now, as for gay feelings "going away", yes, I am convinced they will in the afterife. How and under what conditions I do not know, but they will lest the Atonement be ofr heterosexuals only which I reject.

https://mormonandgay.lds.org/articles/frequently-asked-questions

Repentance is a change of heart. Homosexual activity is outside the bounds of sexuaL exoression the Lord has set and so must be repented of. To say that gays won't change is to say they won't repent and you pronounce damnation upon them. That's not nice. 

https://mormonandgay.lds.org/articles/jesus-christ-can-change-our-hearts

https://www.lds.org/manual/eternal-marriage-student-manual/same-gender-attraction?lang=eng

consecrating our suffering fir our gain is nothing but vampnity if we cannot change. 

As I see it, denying gays can change is a durect afrint to the Atonement and quite disdainful of gays as children of God. There is no such thing as "I cannot change" in an eternal sense and there is no doctrine in the LDS Church which denies homosexuals exaltation if they live the same covenants as anyone else. 

poster removed

And this is a good demonstration of why I have not been active on this board for such a long time. People with one point of view are permitted to be nasty to others, while people having a different point of view are removed from threads.

Edited May 3, 2017 by USU78

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, USU78 said:

And this is a good demonstration of why I have not been active on this board for such a long time.

You're certainly not alone, mate.

[Daniel2]

On ‎5‎/‎1‎/‎2017 at 10:09 AM, HappyJackWagon said:

That is the assumption made by church leaders but I have seen no theology about creation to support it. To answer that question they would need to have some kind of explanation about how spirits are created. I'd love to read some church theology on this topic if any exists.

As it is, the only creation narrative we have seems to support the concept of men creating everything without the aid of women.

It's non-canonical and really not doctrinal from the church's current expressions of belief, but during my years of activity within the church (and as discovered during the decades of my devout LDS years while on my LDS mission) I always found Parley Pratt's "Key to the Science of Theology" to be a thought-provoking personal attempt by an early church leader to understand the science of creation.  It's an interesting view into how one apostle tried to make sense of the issue, and, when taken as such (including it's limitations), I'd highly recommend it.

It's free on Amazon Kindle, here.

Edited May 3, 2017 by Daniel2

[smac97]

7 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I lie? Calm down and try to be a little more responsible in your communication and less offensive.

I see 3 options and you can correct me where I'm wrong.

1- Gays will be alone in eternity because gay relationships will not be permitted

Lots of people "will be alone in eternity," at least in the sense of not having an eternal marriage.  Only those who attain the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom will be able to have a marriage that lasts into the eternities.

So it's not like same-sex marital relationships are being singled out.  All "marital" relationships, except those "made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, of him who is anointed, both as well for time and for all eternity, and that too most holy, by revelation and commandment through the medium of mine anointed, whom I have appointed on the earth to hold this power" will be "of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead."  (D&C 132:7)

Quote

2- Gays will not be alone in eternity because they will not be gay any longer. They will be straight and therefore have a straight marriage.

This is a bit muddled.  We know what the LDS paradigm is.  We know what sorts of marital/familial relationships have the potential to endure into the eternities.

Quote

3- Gays will continue to be gay but will engage in an eternal mixed orientation marriage

I'm trying to take this seriously.  But it's a struggle.

Quote

Please add other possibilities to my list if you see them.

You are treating "gays" as a discrete category of people, or at least as an immutable and eternal trait.  I don't think that works (in the LDS paradigm, anyway).

There are all sorts of people who, owing to diverse reasons and circumstances, will not be married in this life, but will have a fair opportunity to attain the highest degree of salvation.

Quote

If you happen to agree with those possibilities, please show may where the church specifically teaches about any of them.

See D&C 132, passim.  And D&C 131:1-4.  And D&C 76:51-53.  And D&C 137:5.  And the Proclamation.  And Chapter 46 of the Gospel Principles manual ("Through the work we do in temples, all people who have lived on the earth can have an equal opportunity to receive the fulness of the gospel and the ordinances of salvation so they can inherit a place in the highest degree of celestial glory.")

Quote

I don't think you'll find anything. Why? Because the church doesn't have anything to offer gays.

Yes, it does.  It has something to offer every person who has ever lived.  For some strange and sad reason, that seems to be a bitter pill for you.  I am saddened by that.  But I can't let your misrepresentation go unchallenged.

Again: "{A}ll people who have lived on the earth can have an equal opportunity to receive the fulness of the gospel and the ordinances of salvation so they can inherit a place in the highest degree of celestial glory."

"All people."

"All."

Quote

They are not included in the plan of happiness and therefore have not been addressed.

This is a falsehood.  It is not a correct representation of LDS doctrine and belief.

Quote

The church doesn't have an answer for them.

Yes, it does.

Quote

Personally, I don't find any of these options realistic, healthy, or aspirational which again makes my point that the church has ZERO to offer gay people.

If you were accurately and fairly representing the LDS position, your "point" might have some oomph.  But I don't think you are doing that, or anything like it.

• "Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him."  (1 Cor. 2:9).  
• "{A}ll people who have lived on the earth can have an equal opportunity to receive the fulness of the gospel and the ordinances of salvation so they can inherit a place in the highest degree of celestial glory."  (Gospel Principles, Ch. 46)
• "As members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we care about all of God’s children who now live or who have ever lived upon the earth. 'Our message,' as stated by the First Presidency in 1978, 'is one of special love and concern for the eternal welfare of all men and women, regardless of religious belief, race, or nationality, knowing that we are truly brothers and sisters because we are sons and daughters of the same Eternal Father.'"  (James E. Faust, The Restoration of All Things, April 2006 General Conference)
• "Jesus Christ lived and exemplified the heavenly life, that the Father desires all of his children to live. ... All of God’s children are branches on the vine; all have the opportunity to partake of the life, example, and commandments of Jesus Christ and to become like him."  (Bernard P. Brockbank, God’s Way to Eternal Life, October 1973 General Conference)
• "Heavenly Father has made each of us unique. No two of us have exactly the same experiences. No two families are alike. So it is not surprising that advice about how to choose happiness in family life is hard to give. Yet a loving Heavenly Father has set the same path to happiness for all of His children. Whatever our personal characteristics or whatever will be our experiences, there is but one plan of happiness. That plan is to follow all the commandments of God."  (Henry B. Eyring, To My Grandchildren, October 2013 General Conference)
• “The Church provides the organization and means for teaching the gospel of Jesus Christ to all of God’s children. It provides the priesthood authority to administer the ordinances of salvation and exaltation to all who are worthy and willing to accept them.”  (Handbook 2, 1.1.5)
• "{T}he very purpose of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints— {is} to invite, encourage, and assist all of God’s children, both living and dead, to come to Christ and “lay hold upon every good gift” (Moro. 10:30), that 'ye may receive a remission of your sins, and be filled with the Holy Ghost, that ye may be numbered with my people who are of the house of Israel' (3 Ne. 30:2)."  (Alexander B. Morrison, The Dawning of a New Day in Africa, October 1987 General Conference)
• "To all of God’s children, either able to hear or deaf to mortal sound, He offers this reward: 'Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live.' (Isa. 55:3.)"  (Russell M. Nelson, Listen to Learn, April 1991 General Conference)
• "My dear brethren of the priesthood, my beloved fellow disciples of the gentle Christ, should we not hold ourselves to a higher standard? As priesthood bearers, we must realize that all of God’s children wear the same jersey. Our team is the brotherhood of man. This mortal life is our playing field. Our goal is to learn to love God and to extend that same love toward our fellowman. We are here to live according to His law and establish the kingdom of God. We are here to build, uplift, treat fairly, and encourage all of Heavenly Father’s children."  (Dieter F. Uchtdorf, Pride and the Priesthood, October 2010 General Conference)
• "Eternal justice requires that all of God’s children have adequate opportunity to hear and receive the gospel message. Christ taught, 'And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.' (Matt. 24:14.)"  (David B. Haight, A Call to Serve, October 1988 General Conference)
• "Oh, yes, brothers and sisters; we can feel the Savior’s touch, and we can help others feel that divine touch. We can bless each other by reaching out to the wayward youth, the inactive adult, the widowed, the aged, the sick, and to all of God’s children everywhere, member and nonmember of the Church alike."  (M. Russell Ballard, The Savior's Touch, October 1980 General Conference)
• "The Church is engaged in the greatest work in all the world—saving the souls of our Father’s children. It is important that each member know his or her duties and be dedicated and committed in carrying them out in a manner that is pleasing to the Lord. It is important that all concerned have vision of the total job to be done and his or her role with respect thereto. It is important that we marshall all the resources and get them working together in a correlated way so the Church can reach its full potential in helping the Lord bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. Our goal is perfection for all of God’s children who will listen, accept, and live the gospel."  (William H. Bennett, Our Goal is Perfection, October 1976 General Conference)

I am saddened by the apparent bitterness in your words.  But that bitterness can only arise when the LDS doctrinal position is distorted.  Misrepresented.  Caricatured.  

I am also saddened to see critics of the Church work so very, very hard to foment hard feelings, even hatred.  To alienate gays from the LDS Church.  To drive wedges.  To tell gay people, falsely, that they have no place in the LDS Church.  To tell gay people, falsely, that the LDS Church teaches that gay people are not worthy of salvation.  It is pernicious.  It is ugly.  And it is exactly what you are doing when you declare, falsely, that "that the church has ZERO to offer gay people."

So when it comes to discerning what message the Church has for "all of God's children," I choose to listen to the Church, not you.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited May 3, 2017 by smac97

[california boy]

4 hours ago, smac97 said:

Lots of people "will be alone in eternity," at least in the sense of not having an eternal marriage.  Only those who attain the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom will be able to have a marriage that lasts into the eternities.

So it's not like same-sex marital relationships are being singled out.  All "marital" relationships, except those "made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, of him who is anointed, both as well for time and for all eternity, and that too most holy, by revelation and commandment through the medium of mine anointed, whom I have appointed on the earth to hold this power" will be "of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead."  (D&C 132:7)

This is a bit muddled.  We know what the LDS paradigm is.  We know what sorts of marital/familial relationships have the potential to endure into the eternities.

I'm trying to take this seriously.  But it's a struggle.

You are treating "gays" as a discrete category of people, or at least as an immutable and eternal trait.  I don't think that works (in the LDS paradigm, anyway).

There are all sorts of people who, owing to diverse reasons and circumstances, will not be married in this life, but will have a fair opportunity to attain the highest degree of salvation.

See D&C 132, passim.  And D&C 131:1-4.  And D&C 76:51-53.  And D&C 137:5.  And the Proclamation.  And Chapter 46 of the Gospel Principles manual ("Through the work we do in temples, all people who have lived on the earth can have an equal opportunity to receive the fulness of the gospel and the ordinances of salvation so they can inherit a place in the highest degree of celestial glory.")

Yes, it does.  It has something to offer every person who has ever lived.  For some strange and sad reason, that seems to be a bitter pill for you.  I am saddened by that.  But I can't let your misrepresentation go unchallenged.

Again: "{A}ll people who have lived on the earth can have an equal opportunity to receive the fulness of the gospel and the ordinances of salvation so they can inherit a place in the highest degree of celestial glory."

"All people."

"All."

This is a falsehood.  It is not a correct representation of LDS doctrine and belief.

Yes, it does.

If you were accurately and fairly representing the LDS position, your "point" might have some oomph.  But I don't think you are doing that, or anything like it.

• "Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him."  (1 Cor. 2:9).  
• "{A}ll people who have lived on the earth can have an equal opportunity to receive the fulness of the gospel and the ordinances of salvation so they can inherit a place in the highest degree of celestial glory."  (Gospel Principles, Ch. 46)
• "As members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we care about all of God’s children who now live or who have ever lived upon the earth. 'Our message,' as stated by the First Presidency in 1978, 'is one of special love and concern for the eternal welfare of all men and women, regardless of religious belief, race, or nationality, knowing that we are truly brothers and sisters because we are sons and daughters of the same Eternal Father.'"  (James E. Faust, The Restoration of All Things, April 2006 General Conference)
• "Jesus Christ lived and exemplified the heavenly life, that the Father desires all of his children to live. ... All of God’s children are branches on the vine; all have the opportunity to partake of the life, example, and commandments of Jesus Christ and to become like him."  (Bernard P. Brockbank, God’s Way to Eternal Life, October 1973 General Conference)
• "Heavenly Father has made each of us unique. No two of us have exactly the same experiences. No two families are alike. So it is not surprising that advice about how to choose happiness in family life is hard to give. Yet a loving Heavenly Father has set the same path to happiness for all of His children. Whatever our personal characteristics or whatever will be our experiences, there is but one plan of happiness. That plan is to follow all the commandments of God."  (Henry B. Eyring, To My Grandchildren, October 2013 General Conference)
• “The Church provides the organization and means for teaching the gospel of Jesus Christ to all of God’s children. It provides the priesthood authority to administer the ordinances of salvation and exaltation to all who are worthy and willing to accept them.”  (Handbook 2, 1.1.5)
• "{T}he very purpose of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints— {is} to invite, encourage, and assist all of God’s children, both living and dead, to come to Christ and “lay hold upon every good gift” (Moro. 10:30), that 'ye may receive a remission of your sins, and be filled with the Holy Ghost, that ye may be numbered with my people who are of the house of Israel' (3 Ne. 30:2)."  (Alexander B. Morrison, The Dawning of a New Day in Africa, October 1987 General Conference)
• "To all of God’s children, either able to hear or deaf to mortal sound, He offers this reward: 'Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live.' (Isa. 55:3.)"  (Russell M. Nelson, Listen to Learn, April 1991 General Conference)
• "My dear brethren of the priesthood, my beloved fellow disciples of the gentle Christ, should we not hold ourselves to a higher standard? As priesthood bearers, we must realize that all of God’s children wear the same jersey. Our team is the brotherhood of man. This mortal life is our playing field. Our goal is to learn to love God and to extend that same love toward our fellowman. We are here to live according to His law and establish the kingdom of God. We are here to build, uplift, treat fairly, and encourage all of Heavenly Father’s children."  (Dieter F. Uchtdorf, Pride and the Priesthood, October 2010 General Conference)
• "Eternal justice requires that all of God’s children have adequate opportunity to hear and receive the gospel message. Christ taught, 'And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.' (Matt. 24:14.)"  (David B. Haight, A Call to Serve, October 1988 General Conference)
• "Oh, yes, brothers and sisters; we can feel the Savior’s touch, and we can help others feel that divine touch. We can bless each other by reaching out to the wayward youth, the inactive adult, the widowed, the aged, the sick, and to all of God’s children everywhere, member and nonmember of the Church alike."  (M. Russell Ballard, The Savior's Touch, October 1980 General Conference)
• "The Church is engaged in the greatest work in all the world—saving the souls of our Father’s children. It is important that each member know his or her duties and be dedicated and committed in carrying them out in a manner that is pleasing to the Lord. It is important that all concerned have vision of the total job to be done and his or her role with respect thereto. It is important that we marshall all the resources and get them working together in a correlated way so the Church can reach its full potential in helping the Lord bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. Our goal is perfection for all of God’s children who will listen, accept, and live the gospel."  (William H. Bennett, Our Goal is Perfection, October 1976 General Conference)

I am saddened by the apparent bitterness in your words.  But that bitterness can only arise when the LDS doctrinal position is distorted.  Misrepresented.  Caricatured.  

I am also saddened to see critics of the Church work so very, very hard to foment hard feelings, even hatred.  To alienate gays from the LDS Church.  To drive wedges.  To tell gay people, falsely, that they have no place in the LDS Church.  To tell gay people, falsely, that the LDS Church teaches that gay people are not worthy of salvation.  It is pernicious.  It is ugly.  And it is exactly what you are doing when you declare, falsely, that "that the church has ZERO to offer gay people."

So when it comes to discerning what message the Church has for "all of God's children," I choose to listen to the Church, not you.

Thanks,

-Smac

You seem so clear in what the church offers gays in the eternities.  For others, this seems to be incredibly fuzzy to the point where for us it doesn't seem to exist at all.  Of course we have heard that the plan of salvation is for all.  But if you are gay, it is very difficult to understand where we fit into that plan.  

Would you mind clearly stating exactly what is offered to a gay member and what they can expect will happen to them in the next life.  Just what has been revealed on how gays fit into that plan?  I am not interested in opinions or guesses from church leaders. Given my history, I am sure you can understand why.  And of course I am well familiar what what is promised to heterosexual couples married in the temple.  But obviously that does not apply to someone who is gay.   I would much rather have an honest answer of "we simply don't know" than be told something that is not actually revealed from God.  

Edited May 3, 2017 by california boy

[smac97]

4 hours ago, california boy said:

You seem so clear in what the church offers gays in the eternities.  For others, this seems to be incredibly fuzzy to the point where for us it doesn't seem to exist at all.  

The key words here, I think, are "fuzzy to the point where for us..."

The Restored Gospel is for everyone who has ever lived.  There is no reasonable dispute about that.  "For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile." (2 Nephi 26:33)

"The children of men."

"{H}e inviteth them all..."

"{H}e denieth none..."

"{B}lack and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen..."

"{A}ll are alike unto God..."

So the way the Restored Gospel's application to all of God's children "doesn't seem to exist at all" is to disregard what the Restored Gospel is, and instead listen to an inaccurate, distorted caricature of it.

"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."  (Matt. 11:15). 

Quote

Of course we have heard that the plan of salvation is for all.  

And yet we have people on this very thread declare that it is not for gays.  That the Restored Gospel and the church that houses it, as one fellow put it, "has ZERO to offer gay people."

That is an execrable, and demonstrable, falsehood.  You seem to recognize that.

Quote

But if you are gay, it is very difficult to understand where we fit into that plan.  

I can understand part of why that is.  When you have people constantly presenting a manifestly misleading, unfair, and distorted caricature of "that plan," when you have people who are determined to alienate whole swaths of God's children from "that plan" by falsely claiming it does not apply to them, when the authorized voice of those sent to explain "that plan" is lost in a cacophony of other voices who are attempting to step in and speak for the authorized voice, then I can see how confusion can and does arise.

To be sure, the Church and its members and leaders have had much room for improvement.  And this improvement has taken a while.  But today, the clarity of the message is pretty good.  The LDS Church has made extensive efforts to clarify its teachings, and to file down the rough edges it has had in the past.  I invite you to review the remarks of the General Authorities for the last, say, twenty years, regarding people with same-sex atraction.  I invite you to read Mormonandgay.org.  The message of the Restored Gospel is there.  The application of it to those of God's children who are sexually attracted to the same gender is there.

Quote

Would you mind clearly stating exactly what is offered to a gay member and what they can expect will happen to them in the next life.  

That is up to them, of course.  There is no separate tripartate system of glory for people who are sexually attracted to the same gender.  The Atonement applies to everyone, including those who are sexually attracted to the same gender.  "For, behold, the Lord your Redeemer suffered death in the flesh; wherefore he suffered the pain of all men, that all men might repent and come unto him." (D&C 18:11)

There is no caveat there.  "{T}hat all men might repent and come unto him..."

"For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile." (2 Nephi 26:33)

Again, no caveat.  No exception for people who are sexually attracted to the same gender.

Quote

Just what has been revealed on how gays fit into that plan?  

"Gays fit into that plan" the same way everyone else does.

I am confident that there will be many people who, in the here and now, are sexually attracted to their own gender, who will find glory in the Celestial Kingdom.  They'll do it the same way everyone else there will have done it.  Faith.  Repentance.  Obedience.  Application of the Atonement. 

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited May 3, 2017 by smac97

[Bobbieaware]

15 hours ago, Darren10 said:

Don't cite me as something blatantly false and and I won't call you a liar. And don't call me names which are inaccurate and I won't get offended (I'm sure you agree)

2 wins the day. 

That is a lot of good offerings for a church that has notihng to offer gays. 

https://mormonandgay.lds.org/articles/lauries-story

Now, as for gay feelings "going away", yes, I am convinced they will in the afterife. How and under what conditions I do not know, but they will lest the Atonement be ofr heterosexuals only which I reject.

https://mormonandgay.lds.org/articles/frequently-asked-questions

Repentance is a change of heart. Homosexual activity is outside the bounds of sexuaL exoression the Lord has set and so must be repented of. To say that gays won't change is to say they won't repent and you pronounce damnation upon them. That's not nice. 

https://mormonandgay.lds.org/articles/jesus-christ-can-change-our-hearts

https://www.lds.org/manual/eternal-marriage-student-manual/same-gender-attraction?lang=eng

consecrating our suffering fir our gain is nothing but vampnity if we cannot change. 

As I see it, denying gays can change is a durect afrint to the Atonement and quite disdainful of gays as children of God. There is no such thing as "I cannot change" in an eternal sense and there is no doctrine in the LDS Church which denies homosexuals exaltation if they live the same covenants as anyone else. 

poster removed

The fact that Darren10 has been excluded from further participation on this thread as a consequence of what he said in the above post serves as more evidence that the easiest way to get in trouble in this politically correct, hyper-sensitive age is to speak the truth. It reminds me of what's going on on so many college campuses where traditional thinkers are shouted down and prevented by mobs from speaking a single word of truth as they sincerely understand it. 

Edited May 3, 2017 by Bobbieaware

[rockpond]

44 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

The fact that Darren10 has been excluded from further participation on this thread as a consequence of what he said in the above post serves as more evidence that the easiest way to get in trouble in this politically correct, hyper-sensitive age is to speak the truth. It reminds me of what's going on on so many college campuses where traditional thinkers are shouted down and prevented by mobs from speaking a single word of truth as they sincerely understand it. 

I doubt Nemesis removed him for not being politically correct or for "speaking the truth".

[stemelbow]

1 hour ago, Bobbieaware said:

The fact that Darren10 has been excluded from further participation on this thread as a consequence of what he said in the above post serves as more evidence that the easiest way to get in trouble in this politically correct, hyper-sensitive age is to speak the truth. It reminds me of what's going on on so many college campuses where traditional thinkers are shouted down and prevented by mobs from speaking a single word of truth as they sincerely understand it. 

I think even the Church admits these days that gays can't just change, as Darren alleged.  He didnt' speak truth.  He spoke the church's old way of thinking.  That's gone the way of the dinosaurs though, because it's a direct affront on those that are gay.  There's no conspiracy as I see it here at Mormon Dialogue, even though yesterday a couple of my posts just mysteriously disappeared, without any notice, mention or explanation.  I can't help but get a chuckle to think, though, that you think the conspiracy is that Mormon Dialogue has embraced the notion of shutting down the conservative voice. 

I appreciate the balance here.   

[HappyJackWagon]

11 hours ago, smac97 said:

So when it comes to discerning what message the Church has for "all of God's children," I choose to listen to the Church, not you.

Thanks,

-Smac

Mic drop from a soapbox!!! Impressive.

Sorry- your final line just made me laugh.  

 

[USU78]

4 hours ago, rockpond said:

I doubt Nemesis removed him for not being politically correct or for "speaking the truth".

I agree:  he was removed because of complaints from the usual suspects, without consideration of either provocations, serial misrepresentations, distortions or attacks by other posters.  What he stated was stated without rancor and without namecalling.

There had been a time when the LDS viewpoint was given latitude on this here board.  That has changed:  if one advances secular homosexual viewpoints, one is free from fear of removal or other sanction.

[USU78]

4 hours ago, stemelbow said:

I think even the Church admits these days that gays can't just change, as Darren alleged. 

CFR the Church "admits" any such thing.

[rockpond]

1 hour ago, USU78 said:

I agree:  he was removed because of complaints from the usual suspects, without consideration of either provocations, serial misrepresentations, distortions or attacks by other posters.  What he stated was stated without rancor and without namecalling.

There had been a time when the LDS viewpoint was given latitude on this here board.  That has changed:  if one advances secular homosexual viewpoints, one is free from fear of removal or other sanction.

Do you have some knowledge that anyone reported Darren's posts?

I disagree with your conclusion as I see no support for it.

[stemelbow]

1 hour ago, USU78 said:

CFR the Church "admits" any such thing.

Quote

If I’m Faithful Enough, Will My Attractions Go Away?

The intensity of same-sex attraction is not a measure of your faithfulness. Many people pray for years and do all they can to be obedient in an effort to reduce same-sex attraction, yet find they are still attracted to the same sex. Same-sex attraction is experienced along a spectrum of intensity and is not the same for everyone. Some are attracted to both genders, and others are attracted exclusively to the same gender. For some, feelings of same-sex attraction, or at least the intensity of those feelings, may diminish over time. In any case, a change in attraction should not be expected or demanded as an outcome by parents or leaders.

The intensity of your attractions may not be in your control; however, you can choose how to respond. Asking the Lord what you can learn from this experience can focus your faith on an outcome you can control. Turning your life over to God is an important act of faith that brings great blessings now and even greater blessings in the world to come.

https://mormonandgay.lds.org/articles/frequently-asked-questions

[HappyJackWagon]

1 hour ago, USU78 said:

I agree:  he was removed because of complaints from the usual suspects, without consideration of either provocations, serial misrepresentations, distortions or attacks by other posters.  What he stated was stated without rancor and without namecalling.

There had been a time when the LDS viewpoint was given latitude on this here board.  That has changed:  if one advances secular homosexual viewpoints, one is free from fear of removal or other sanction.

How do you know there were complaints? Who are these usual suspects you speak of? How do you know what was considered? Reasonable people can definitely have different opinions about what is or is not "rancor". Name calling on the other hand, is verifiable.

You're making a lot of assumptions and even accusations here. Do you have anything to back it up?

Quote

     5 hours ago, stemelbow said:

I think even the Church admits these days that gays can't just change, as Darren alleged. 

 

USU78- CFR the Church "admits" any such thing.

0

•  

In addition to what Stem posted from the church's website, I'll also add the recent conference talk, Behold Your Mother, by Elder Holland. https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/10/behold-thy-mother?lang=eng

Quote

I must say, this son’s sexual orientation did not somehow miraculously change—no one assumed it would.

 

Edited May 3, 2017 by HappyJackWagon

[rockpond]

1 hour ago, USU78 said:

CFR the Church "admits" any such thing.

Bryce Cook of ALL (Arizona LDS LGBT) has done a great job of researching and compiling church teachings on homosexuality.  His work has been posted here:  https://mormonlgbtquestions.com/ and there is a downloadable PDF on that page as well.

His research shows both how the Church's teachings have changed over time and what they are now.  It's a great resource if you want to understand this topic.

[USU78]

Recognizing that changing sexually aberrant behaviors is extremely difficult is not the same as admitting it cannot happen.

Recognizing that feelings of same sex attraction may not go away completely is not the same as admitting it can never happen.

Recognizing that copying mechanisms to avoid acting out on feelings of same sex attraction may be the best one can hope for in life is not the same as admitting that reparative therapies don't and cannot ever work.

So  ...  thanks, all, for establishing that the Church "admits" no such thing as asserted by stemelbow.

[HappyJackWagon]

12 minutes ago, USU78 said:

Recognizing that changing sexually aberrant behaviors is extremely difficult is not the same as admitting it cannot happen.

Recognizing that feelings of same sex attraction may not go away completely is not the same as admitting it can never happen.

Recognizing that copying mechanisms to avoid acting out on feelings of same sex attraction may be the best one can hope for in life is not the same as admitting that reparative therapies don't and cannot ever work.

So  ...  thanks, all, for establishing that the Church "admits" no such thing as asserted by stemelbow.

That is an unreasonable response.

Let me remind you what you said earlier on this page...again.

Quote

      7 hours ago, stemelbow said:

I think even the Church admits these days that gays can't just change, as Darren alleged. 

USU78- CFR the Church "admits" any such thing.

So you are calling for a reference that the church admits that gays "can't just change". (I believe the context of 'change' was in regard to orientation, not behavior).

I provided a quote from Holland where he said "this son’s sexual orientation did not somehow miraculously change—no one assumed it would." Holland says that no one assumed the orientation would miraculously change.

Stem's original quote that you CFR'd didn't say that things could "Never happen". That's something you're adding on now. Now you're claiming that reparative therapies work.

You CFR'd. We answered. But no one can make you be reasonable. Obviously. But as I learned from Daren, there's no use trying to converse with someone who is determined to maintain a preconceived idea no matter what.

[USU78]

7 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

That is an unreasonable response.

Let me remind you what you said earlier on this page...again.

So you are calling for a reference that the church admits that gays "can't just change". (I believe the context of 'change' was in regard to orientation, not behavior).

I provided a quote from Holland where he said "this son’s sexual orientation did not somehow miraculously change—no one assumed it would." Holland says that no one assumed the orientation would miraculously change.

Stem's original quote that you CFR'd didn't say that things could "Never happen". That's something you're adding on now. Now you're claiming that reparative therapies work.

You CFR'd. We answered. But no one can make you be reasonable. Obviously. But as I learned from Daren, there's no use trying to converse with someone who is determined to maintain a preconceived idea no matter what.

Recognizing that no one should assume that feelings of same sex attraction will go away is not the same as admitting it cannot happen.

Recognizing that earthstains and thorns and afflictions in life are often, sometimes always, with us for life is not the same as negativing the healing effects of the Spirit and the Atonement.

Recognizing that earthstains and thorns and afflictions in life are often, sometimes always, with us for life is not the same as negativing free will.

[rockpond]

2 minutes ago, USU78 said:

Recognizing that no one should assume that feelings of same sex attraction will go away is not the same as admitting it cannot happen.

Recognizing that earthstains and thorns and afflictions in life are often, sometimes always, with us for life is not the same as negativing the healing effects of the Spirit and the Atonement.

Recognizing that earthstains and thorns and afflictions in life are often, sometimes always, with us for life is not the same as negativing free will.

I don't think anyone is going to say that sexual orientation cannot ever change with 100% certainty.  But, there is a reason that the Church has pulled away from conversion therapy.  There is a reason that they've stopped encouraging change as the correct path for gay church members.  There is a reason that, at least here in the US, there are laws being passed to ban conversion therapy.

Aside from dangerous side effects.  The reason is that change in one's sexual orientation appears to be exceedingly rare and likely not tied to one's efforts but correlated with where one lands on the Kinsey scale.