Elder Uchtdorf's Council to Avoid using Fear to Motivate

[Calm]

48 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Thank goodness this has been brought to awareness and fixed in and outside the church.  It hasn't been a year yet but it is nice to know that fear for young women reporting rapes or any sexual harassment has been removed.  The worry of losing school and church discipline kept many silent.

Takes more than a changed policy to remove fear.  I don't really understand what you mean by being fixed outside the Church, I am guessing inside you mean BYU's policy.  Also I am not sure why you see fear in reporting rapes or sexual harassment would be removed.  Diminished yes, but until there are success stories being shared, I don't see a huge change happening.

And outside of BYU and the Church, I haven't seen reports of percentage of rapes being reported moving to over 50%.  Instead there are a number of stories of eviedence of persistence of rape culture around the US unfortunately.

It is great to be positive, but unrealistic expectations lead to disappointments and feelings of betrayal.  Better to be realistic and cautious in seeing cultural change.

Edited April 23, 2017 by Calm

[Jeanne]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

Takes more than a changed policy to remove fear.  I don't really understand what you mean by being fixed outside the Church, I am guessing inside you mean BYU's policy.  Also I am not sure why you see fear in reporting rapes or sexual harassment would be removed.  Diminished yes, but until there are success stories being shared, I don't see a huge change happening.

And outside of BYU and the Church, I haven't seen reports of percentage of rapes being reported moving to over 50%.  Instead there are a number of stories of eviedence of persistence of rape culture around the US unfortunately.

Oh..I guess I may be too optimistic...but any change directed to victims to get some help should be a good thing.  If at least they can go to police first without the whole world knowing their story  I guess it will take time to know if there has been success.  I am grateful that BYU has made some changes to policies but you are right...this is a problem that belongs to the whole of this country.

[Calm]

43 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Oh..I guess I may be too optimistic...but any change directed to victims to get some help should be a good thing.  If at least they can go to police first without the whole world knowing their story  I guess it will take time to know if there has been success.  I am grateful that BYU has made some changes to policies but you are right...this is a problem that belongs to the whole of this country.

I love optimism and think it is great to approach the world on a daily basis that way as how we approach life will determine to a great extent what we get back, imo.  We tend to try harder when we are optimistic and influence others to be positive by being positive ourselves.  Mood and attitudes can be contagious, so to speak.

But as I said, I think being realistic in expectations is important to avoid unnecessary disappointment and especially feelings of betrayal.

What the balance is probably is different for everyone as some need higher levels of positive feedback to feel positive than others.

[carbon dioxide]

Fear is a powerful motivating tool.  Not all fear is bad.  For example I have the fear that I will not have enough money for retirement.  Since I have that fear, it motivates me to plan ahead so that I will have enough money for retirement.  If I go through life without that fear, I may find myself a little short in my financial situation when I retire.  Fear motivates me to go to the dentist or doctor more regularly.  There is a good type of fear that keeps us out of trouble.  Same with the spiritual side of things.  If we do not fear wickedness, we  may not repent because we are indifferent to the sins we commit.

So there is good fear and bad fear.  Good fear can motivate us.  Bad fear might motivate us for a short time but it does not stick and usually its not helpful.  Bad fear includes being afraid of things that are simply out of our control.  Many people have a lot of fear about Trump being the president.  Whether he will be a good or bad president really does not matter.  He is president and there is not much we can do about as individuals.  So don't stress your live about Trump if you don't like him.  Focus on things you can control and find happiness.  Some people in the church might fear if a loved one leaves the church.  Stop worrying about it.  We all have our agency and we can't take that away from anyone.  Pray for them, hope for the best but don't stress your life about it. 

[rodheadlee]

2 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Or what about this classic quote from Boyd K Packer 

If that's not fear based I don't know what is...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

PS: Yes packer said this and yes it was taken completely out of context to be funny

You complain when you get warned of danger and you complain when you don't get warned of danger. Which is it you desire?

[Freedom]

3 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Fear has always been at the foundation of the church.  The church seeks obedience from members it achieves this in part through fear.   Fear of losing God's favor, the fear of forever dividing an "eternal family". Fear of divorce for questioning and doubting. But that's only half of the story because the church has exaggerated the extent of the so called wickedness of the world inorder to accomplish its aims   

Take a recent LDS lesson manuals blatant use of fear:

Does this not scare you to be a good obedient Mormon?  I'm actually surprised you would even question this

these end of time fear tactics have been quite a common topic at GC. Fear has been a tool of motivation to be a good Mormon since it's founding...again I'm surprised you are unaware of them

I question it because you are profoundly ignorant of mormon teaching. For every quote you find that supports your point of view I can find thousands that tell a different story. I invite you to read a primary or sunday school manual, or watch just one session of general conference. Your argument has no merit. The quote you offered, by the way, is a warning of the conditions of the last days; are you suggesting we simply ignore such prophecies and not prepare for what is to come? Are you suggesting we never teach children of the dangers of touching fire or of running across the road without looking first? And you have the audacity to say 'I'm actually surprised you would even question this'? This comment simply gives further evidence of your condescending and polemic approach that is couched in an astounding lack of knowledge. 

Survey the last 10 years of general conference talks and take a tally of how many use a hammer and how many use honey. As I said, your argument has no merit. 

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, MormonVideoGame said:

but in some wards the leaders and teachers do exactly that. As a child and teenager I was a good boy because I was afraid of god's punishment. However, I was not perfect, so every time I made a mistake I was tormented in my mind. 

I was tormented for having "impure" thoughts. No one told me that sexual thoughts and feelings were normal and okay.  To the contrary, many (including my Bishop at the time) told me they were not okay. I now understand that I was psychologically abused by my ward teachers and leaders.  I always felt extremely guilty for having so-called "impure" thoughts and desires. I thought I was going to be punished in Hell.  

I was living in a state of guilt and fear. 

Sounds to me like "Portnoy's Complaint."  The amount of guilt and fear used by American parents to control their children varies by culture, most being quite permissive today, when only a few decades ago things were generally oriented to corporal punishment in schools and at home.  The notion that you felt "abused" by ward teachers and leaders may have something to do with your particular personality.  Some kids are just more boisterous than others, and growing up can be a kind of Hell for any kid.  However, that is part of life, and always has been.

Children raised in overly rigid homes tend to rebel later, and they remain unhappy for years thereafter.  Thus, any suggestion that engaging in  rampant, obsessive sexual activity might be inappropriate, brings on immediate anger in you now.  The notion that life is best lived with some sort of equilibrium is rejected as boring.  But such value judgments are matters of free choice for adults, so no one can tell you "no" at this late date.

However, I just don't see the abusive behavior you claim is committed by LDS ward leaders and teachers.  Indeed, far from being controlling and hard core, LDS congregations tend to be the most permissive and noisy of any church or synagogue.  The same app[lies to Primary and the Nursery.  If anything, LDS children are indulged and pampered to a greater degree than I have seen anywhere else.

What you describe sounds more like some Fundamentalist Protestant congregation than any Mormon one.

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Speakers at conference often exaggerate world conditions, impact of the influence of alternative life choices as a motivational fear tactic...heck the Book of Mormon is full of these tactics. 

Yeh, and maybe we could include the Bible -- plenty of Hell Fire and Brimstone there.  But I am unaware of any exaggerations by the Brethren.  They never sound like the Donald, and they never get excited like Donald Duck.  What I hear from them is straight reportage, when and if they bother to report societal ills and world problems.  Well, maybe you are in denial -- as with the climate deniers.

4 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I didn't think I was beating anyone over the head Robert, thought I was complimenting President Uchtdorf's talk

As well you might.  It was a good talk.  Very much along the same lines we could expect from Joseph Smith himself.  I just think that you took his comments too far.

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Fear has always been at the foundation of the church.  The church seeks obedience from members it achieves this in part through fear.   Fear of losing God's favor, the fear of forever dividing an "eternal family". Fear of divorce for questioning and doubting. But that's only half of the story because the church has exaggerated the extent of the so called wickedness of the world inorder to accomplish its aims   

Take a recent LDS lesson manuals blatant use of fear:

Does this not scare you to be a good obedient Mormon?  I'm actually surprised you would even question this

these end of time fear tactics have been quite a common topic at GC. Fear has been a tool of motivation to be a good Mormon since it's founding...again I'm surprised you are unaware of them

Of course it has not been common at Gen Conf, and you are citing a lesson manual anyhow -- even though you didn't bother to tell us which one and its date of publication.  Your exaggerations here are amazing, and completely out of touch with reality.  In fact the LDS Church leaders and manuals are notable for the absence of fear-mongering.  And we certainly don't experience it at our wards or stakes.

At the same time, it will do no good to ignore world problems, nor to pretend that there are no dangers.  In fact. we have an ignorant Commander in Chief who could very well get us and the rest of the world in big trouble in about two shakes.  If you really are completely unaware of the status of world problems, then any factual report will indeed seem like an exaggeration, Johnnie.

[Johnnie Cake]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Of course it has not been common at Gen Conf, and you are citing a lesson manual anyhow -- even though you didn't bother to tell us which one and its date of publication.  Your exaggerations here are amazing, and completely out of touch with reality.  In fact the LDS Church leaders and manuals are notable for the absence of fear-mongering.  And we certainly don't experience it at our wards or stakes.

At the same time, it will do no good to ignore world problems, nor to pretend that there are no dangers.  In fact. we have an ignorant Commander in Chief who could very well get us and the rest of the world in big trouble in about two shakes.  If you really are completely unaware of the status of world problems, then any factual report will indeed seem like an exaggeration, Johnnie.

If what you say is true, why would President Uchtdorf chastise the church then?

[Rain]

3 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

If what you say is true, why would President Uchtdorf chastise the church then?

Did he?

Looking over what you quoted I can only see him chastising church "members".

[Robert F. Smith]

5 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

If what you say is true, why would President Uchtdorf chastise the church then?

That was your misinterpretation of his talk, which I think is a good talk, but I don't believe that he is "chastising the LDS Church," as you suggest.

[Freedom]

I took at look at the talks from General Conference 10 years ago, April 2007. Here are some of the topics they covered:

The Supernatural Gift of Prayer

The Nourishing Power of Hymns

Gratitude the Path to Happiness

The Healing Power of Forgiveness

The Message of the Restoration. 

So no hammers 10 years ago. Lets go back 20 years;

Caring for the Souls of Children

Eternity Lies Before Us

Gratitude

You Have Nothing to Fear from the Journey

Friends Stand Together

Ya, no hammers, no threats, no bulling tactics. It is easy to make an accusation, but it is much more difficult to prove it. It is easy to attach the church, but it is much more difficult to find evidence to justify your attacks. 

 

 

[The Nehor]

11 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I surprisenly enjoyed Elder Uchtdorfs General Conference Sunday morning address.  Like Elder Uchdorf, I agree that using fear as a means to motivate while effective is not long lasting. He said:

He goes on to council that: 

Fear has been used throughout the history of the church as a club to beat members with to motivate them to reach church goals of compliance with commandments. Fear of the consequences of sin. Hanging the threats of eternal punishment over members heads is a fear tactic or threats of loss of greater eternal reward by failing to comply with church standards is a fear tactic. Using guilt as a means of motivation is a fear tactic. Using the tired trope of a world in constant decline is a fear tactic.  I was particularly happy to hear Elder Uchtdorf call out the use of these fear tactic in the church when he said:

Hasn't this been one of the churches favorite fear tactic? To demonize the world and paint it as a sin filled maze laying in wait to tear down and destroy? Instead of Elder Uchtdorf's more balanced approach of recognizing how wonderful the world actually is and how fortunate we all are to be living in the imperfect yet beautiful world.

Juxtaposed against his talk are all the past general conference talks that resorted to fear and exaggeration of world conditions and use of fear based themes in talks, the very world Elder Uchtdorf says he prefers to live in despite its problems. I was glad Elder Uchtdorf called out these fear based themes and used a more balanced positive approach. Perhaps this will lead to fear being used less in the future within the church as a means of motivation. At least that is my hope.

And I hope no one believes your twisted history of the church and the saints.

Standard rhetorical technique is to take something your enemy says and use it to try to beat on them. When called out you play innocent and suggest you were trying so hard to compliment someone and everyone just always assumes the worst of you.

So tediously transparent.

[Johnnie Cake]

12 hours ago, Freedom said:

I question it because you are profoundly ignorant of mormon teaching. For every quote you find that supports your point of view I can find thousands that tell a different story. I invite you to read a primary or sunday school manual, or watch just one session of general conference.

Classic Dunning and Kruger effect...and a bit hyperbolic as well....and not very nice either...but setting that personal swipe aside...I assure you I am well aware of Mormon teachings...but certainly not ignorant of their use of fear as a motivational tactic.  This is not to say that, fear is not the only tool in the churches motivation tool bag and it does use other, more positive means to motivate its members as well.  I didn't focus on those because Fear was the central point of Elder Uchtdorfs talk which is why I also focused on fear.

Quote

 

Your argument has no merit. The quote you offered, by the way, is a warning of the conditions of the last days; are you suggesting we simply ignore such prophecies and not prepare for what is to come? Are you suggesting we never teach children of the dangers of touching fire or of running across the road without looking first? And you have the audacity to say 'I'm actually surprised you would even question this'? This comment simply gives further evidence of your condescending and polemic approach that is couched in an astounding lack of knowledge. 

Survey the last 10 years of general conference talks and take a tally of how many use a hammer and how many use honey. As I said, your argument has no merit. 

You asked for evidence that the church uses fear as a tactic and I provided evidence where the church has used fear taken directly from a recent LDS lesson manual no less. 

Chill bro, I was in no means attempting to belittle or talk down at you or be condescending...I was just expressing my surprise that you were unaware of the use of fear as a tool of motivation in the church.  Heck even Elder Uchtdorf is aware of its use in the church and is calling those who employ this device to repentance.  To use your metaphor, That the church also uses honey does not erase the fact that it also uses the hammer of fear when it benefits them.

Edited April 24, 2017 by Johnnie Cake

[Johnnie Cake]

7 hours ago, The Nehor said:

And I hope no one believes your twisted history of the church and the saints.

Standard rhetorical technique is to take something your enemy says and use it to try to beat on them. When called out you play innocent and suggest you were trying so hard to compliment someone and everyone just always assumes the worst of you.

So tediously transparent.

I didn't know we were enemies Nehor

[Johnnie Cake]

10 hours ago, Rain said:

Did he?

Looking over what you quoted I can only see him chastising church "members".

Robert...Elder Uchtdorf is addressing the entire church...at a general conference...so who exactly is he referring to when he uses the pronoun "We" if not the church and its members?

Quote

We smile at this and think we would never fall for such manipulation, but we sometimes do. Worse, we sometimes use similar methods to get others to do what we want.

My message has two purposes today: The first is to urge us to contemplate and consider the extent to which we use fear to motivate others—including ourselves. The second is to suggest a better way.

 

[Storm Rider]

Guys, you gotta stop feeding a troll. You feed the behavior and it is only reinforced.  

Last week I listened very briefly to a fellow that converted from Mormonism to the Catholic Church.  The fellow had a very unfortunate history - folks had a bad marriage; occasionally attended church, but often without the dad; father having a bad drinking problem; left the church around the age of fifteen; turned to atheism; ends up with a doctorate and finds Catholicism where he is happy (the end is much better than the beginning).  However, what I found so unfortunate is the how poorly this fellow understood Mormonism, LDS Church doctrine, teachings actually within the Book of Mormon, etc.

I find so few decent critics in today's world. Most are raised with technology that creates an attention span of ten seconds, desperate to scream fire, but it comes out as babbling because of a lack of knowledge or just plain extremely poor presentation.  

Find what makes you happy and hold onto it.  If we are going to be critical seek for a balanced, intelligent approach or review, but keep moving on.  I have yet to meet an individual who is at peace that continues to re-chew the spoiled food of yesteryear like an old cow chewing her cud without ever completely swallowing.  It becomes obvious that some just want to be unhappy.  

[rockpond]

I think where people will always differ on this is in determining what constitutes "dwelling upon" and exaggeration vs. what is a proper warning for the saints.

[Maestrophil]

My personal feeling is that those who truly understand and embrace the doctrine of Justification and sanctification through Jesus, will be able to hear admonitions and warnings without fear because of where their faith lies.  I definitely have never been in fear of anything in the church aside from disappointing my God.  And even when I know I do disappoint Him, there is a ready and immediate fix.  Life is good in the church for me due to that belief. 

I am still struggling to understand why many seem to not find solace in the sacrifice and promises of Christ...

Edited April 24, 2017 by Maestrophil

[MiserereNobis]

6 minutes ago, Maestrophil said:

My personal feeling is that those who truly understand and embrace the doctrine of Justification and sanctification through Jesus, will be able to hear admonitions and warnings without fear because of where their faith lies.  I definitely have never been in fear of anything in the church aside from disappointing my God.  And even when I know I do disappoint Him, there is a ready and immediate fix.  Life is good in the church for me due to that belief. 

I am still struggling to understand why many seem to not find solace in the sacrifice and promises of Christ...

Nice point.  For me, this is the beauty of the confessional.  I love to be able to go and unburden my sins, faults, weaknesses, and struggles in a place set aside for such things to a priest whose job it is to hear, console, advise, and then absolve through the love and mercy of God and the atonement of Christ.  The ritual of confession is spiritually and psychologically healing.

I know LDS confession is different (only for major sins) but surely the personal confession to God and Christ would bring about the immediate fix Maestrophil mentions.  Perhaps when one is overwhelmed with fear and guilt, one should pray more for forgiveness and peace...?

But I do have to say the rite of confession, with it's closing "ego te absolvo a peccatis tuis in nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen" (I absolve you of your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit) brings a sense of closure and finality that I might not have if I were just praying by myself to God.  When I leave the confessional, I know the ready and immediate fix has happened.  That brings a lightness that is sweet to enjoy.

[hope_for_things]

20 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I surprisenly enjoyed Elder Uchtdorfs General Conference Sunday morning address.  Like Elder Uchdorf, I agree that using fear as a means to motivate while effective is not long lasting. He said:

He goes on to council that: 

Fear has been used throughout the history of the church as a club to beat members with to motivate them to reach church goals of compliance with commandments. Fear of the consequences of sin. Hanging the threats of eternal punishment over members heads is a fear tactic or threats of loss of greater eternal reward by failing to comply with church standards is a fear tactic. Using guilt as a means of motivation is a fear tactic. Using the tired trope of a world in constant decline is a fear tactic.  I was particularly happy to hear Elder Uchtdorf call out the use of these fear tactic in the church when he said:

Hasn't this been one of the churches favorite fear tactic? To demonize the world and paint it as a sin filled maze laying in wait to tear down and destroy? Instead of Elder Uchtdorf's more balanced approach of recognizing how wonderful the world actually is and how fortunate we all are to be living in the imperfect yet beautiful world.

Juxtaposed against his talk are all the past general conference talks that resorted to fear and exaggeration of world conditions and use of fear based themes in talks, the very world Elder Uchtdorf says he prefers to live in despite its problems. I was glad Elder Uchtdorf called out these fear based themes and used a more balanced positive approach. Perhaps this will lead to fear being used less in the future within the church as a means of motivation. At least that is my hope.

I think it was truly one of the best conference talks given in recent years, and it stood in stark contrast to many of the other fear based talks.  Unfortunately, your average member will think that all of the talks harmonize and miss the essence of the message that Uchtdorf was communicating all together.  However, the optimistic side of me is hoping that other church leaders(including his peers) who regularly use fear to motivate will take this counsel to heart.    

[MiserereNobis]

If you want to see fear as a motivating tool, check out Edwards' sermon "Sinners in the Hands of Angry God."

Great for rhetorical analysis! (and for pitying those poor Puritans...)

[bluebell]

12 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

But I do have to say the rite of confession, with it's closing "ego te absolvo a peccatis tuis in nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen" (I absolve you of your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit) brings a sense of closure and finality that I might not have if I were just praying by myself to God.  When I leave the confessional, I know the ready and immediate fix has happened.  That brings a lightness that is sweet to enjoy.

I think this is probably part of it.  I think it's easy for satan to convince people that they haven't really repented or haven't really been forgiven, when they have no one specifically declaring it is so.

 

[Johnnie Cake]

While I appreciate Elder Uchtdorf's message...one thing that I wouldn't expect him to point out but I will is just how much fear loses its sting and effectiveness as a manipulative tool by the well meaning and the not so well meaning when one also loses belief in religion.

It's amazing how free the human mind is when one rids him or herself from the confines of religious dogma.  While I don't expect believers to share my perspective I did feel that it was important to at least state this reality. Its hard I know for believers to understand just how amazingly free life is outside of religion...for me it was like removing a restrictive piece of clothing and being able to take a deep breath of fresh air for the first time in my life...truly exhilarating.  I respect that believers will disagree.

Edited April 24, 2017 by Johnnie Cake