Elder Uchtdorf's Council to Avoid using Fear to Motivate

[thesometimesaint]

Isaiah 41:10New International Version (NIV)

¹⁰ So do not fear, for I am with you;
    do not be dismayed, for I am your God.
I will strengthen you and help you;
    I will uphold you with my righteous right hand

[bluebell]

4 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

While I appreciate Elder Uchtdorf's message...one thing that I wouldn't expect him to point out but I will is just how much fear loses its sting and effectiveness as a manipulative tool by the well meaning and the not so well meaning when one also loses belief in religion.

It's amazing how free the human mind is when one rids him or herself from the confines of religious dogma.  While I don't expect believers to share my perspective I did feel that it was important to at least state this reality. Its hard I know for believers to understand just how amazingly free life is outside of religion...for me it was like removing a restrictive piece of clothing and being able to take a deep breath of fresh air for the first time in my life...truly exhilarating.  I respect that believers will disagree.

It's not hard for me to understand at all. I can imagine it's like comparing vacation to real life.   Or the school year to summer break.  

[HappyJackWagon]

19 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The LDS Church has never been a "Hellfire and brimstone" preaching Church, and I don't see it as ever purveying fear.  

Just yesterday we had a stake leader preach the Good Ship Zion. Where will you go? What would you do? Certain death and destruction awaits anyone who gets out of the boat.

"Don't you even think about getting off this boat!" was his concluding remark.

The good ship Zion is a fear based metaphor and the talk yesterday was definitely a fear based talk. The speaker clearly hadn't received Pres. Uchtdorf's message.

[MiserereNobis]

6 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

It's amazing how free the human mind is when one rids him or herself from the confines of religious dogma.  While I don't expect believers to share my perspective I did feel that it was important to at least state this reality. Its hard I know for believers to understand just how amazingly free life is outside of religion...for me it was like removing a restrictive piece of clothing and being able to take a deep breath of fresh air for the first time in my life...truly exhilarating.  I respect that believers will disagree.

I totally understand what you are saying.  For one thing, there is less on your "to-do" list if you aren't a believer

I came from non-belief to belief and my experience is that I know have greater freedom.  My days of non-belief were fine -- I didn't have some sort of deep existential crisis that lead me to belief and I wouldn't characterize my time of non-belief in the negative terms some converts might characterize theirs.  I think of it like being 10 years old.  Remember how awesome 10 was?  Old enough to have lots of freedom, to learn, to understand to some degree how big and beautiful the world is.  And dang, those summers sure lasted forever!  No major responsibilities, no worries about money or relationships.  But I wouldn't go back to being 10, because the responsibilities of being an adult have also given me greater freedoms.  As a believer, I feel like I have a deeper more substantial freedom (and experience of joy) than I did as a non-believer, even though my time as a non-believer was fine.

I hope this analogy helps you understand my point-of-view.  And I am in no way saying that non-believers are like children -- I'm just trying to explain my experience with an analogy.

[bluebell]

1 minute ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Just yesterday we had a stake leader preach the Good Ship Zion. Where will you go? What would you do? Certain death and destruction awaits anyone who gets out of the boat.

"Don't you even think about getting off this boat!" was his concluding remark.

The good ship Zion is a fear based metaphor and the talk yesterday was definitely a fear based talk. The speaker clearly hadn't received Pres. Uchtdorf's message.

It's very difficult to straddle the line between correctly teaching about consequences and using fear.  Even people who understand Uchtdorf's talk struggle with doing it well.

[Johnnie Cake]

4 minutes ago, bluebell said:

It's not hard for me to understand at all. I can imagine it's like comparing vacation to real life.   Or the school year to summer break.  

I could retort...with an equally offensive jab, but I'll restrain myself...

[MiserereNobis]

2 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Just yesterday we had a stake leader preach the Good Ship Zion. Where will you go? What would you do? Certain death and destruction awaits anyone who gets out of the boat.

"Don't you even think about getting off this boat!" was his concluding remark.

The good ship Zion is a fear based metaphor and the talk yesterday was definitely a fear based talk. The speaker clearly hadn't received Pres. Uchtdorf's message.

That's interesting that the LDS church has a boat metaphor, too.  In Catholicism, we call it the Barque of St. Peter, with the Pope steering us.

[bluebell]

1 minute ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I could retort...with an equally offensive jab, but I'll restrain myself...

I have no idea what was offensive about my post.  I pretty much said exactly what MIserereNobis said, was his offensive as well?  I'm sincerely confused.

All I said was that i can understand why losing a belief in religion could make life seem so much freer and less restrictive.  It makes sense because you lose a lot of responsibility and work.  You get to be your own boss (so to speak) instead of being directed by someone (or something) else that you won't always agree with and being asked to do things you won't always want to do.

Is that offensive?

[Johnnie Cake]

3 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

I totally understand what you are saying.  For one thing, there is less on your "to-do" list if you aren't a believer

I came from non-belief to belief and my experience is that I know have greater freedom.  My days of non-belief were fine -- I didn't have some sort of deep existential crisis that lead me to belief and I wouldn't characterize my time of non-belief in the negative terms some converts might characterize theirs.  I think of it like being 10 years old.  Remember how awesome 10 was?  Old enough to have lots of freedom, to learn, to understand to some degree how big and beautiful the world is.  And dang, those summers sure lasted forever!  No major responsibilities, no worries about money or relationships.  But I wouldn't go back to being 10, because the responsibilities of being an adult have also given me greater freedoms.  As a believer, I feel like I have a deeper more substantial freedom (and experience of joy) than I did as a non-believer, even though my time as a non-believer was fine.

I hope this analogy helps you understand my point-of-view.  And I am in no way saying that non-believers are like children -- I'm just trying to explain my experience with an analogy.

I guess we each come from a perspective that we are living a more superior life than the one we left...or we wouldn't be where we are....so I'll give you a pass.

[MiserereNobis]

1 minute ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I guess we each come from a perspective that we are living a more superior life than the one we left...or we wouldn't be where we are....so I'll give you a pass.

Were you raised Mormon?  I wonder how much of it comes from being raised in a religion.  I've noticed as a convert to Catholicism, for example, that I don't seem to carry the emotional/psychological baggage that people that were raised Catholic sometimes do.

Sometimes coming to religion as an adult has the advantage of an adult mind being able to process the teachings and ideas.

[JulieM]

20 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The LDS Church has never been a "Hellfire and brimstone" preaching Church, and I don't see it as ever purveying fear. 

I don't know about "never" or "ever".  Have you read some of the speeches Jedediah Grant gave or some of Brigham Young's given to congregations?  I've thought how people would react with terror if they heard those today!

Edited April 24, 2017 by JulieM

[Johnnie Cake]

1 minute ago, bluebell said:

I have no idea what was offensive about my post.  I pretty much said exactly what MIserereNobis said, was his offensive as well?  I'm sincerely confused.

All I said was that i can understand why losing a belief in religion could make life seem so much freer and less restrictive.  It makes sense because you lose a lot of responsibility and work.  You get to be your own boss (so to speak) instead of being directed by someone (or something) else that you won't always agree with and being asked to do things you won't always want to do.

Is that offensive?

yeah and I called him out as well...just less so than I did you....I just sensed some condescension in that particular post....but then I'm sure that my comment on fear losing its sting as a tactic once I lost belief in religion could also be seen as condescending as well...so I'll take it back.  I believe you are a good person...and maybe I'm being too sensitive.  I don't want to insinuate that one life choice is superior to the other.  While I would be miserable as a Mormon...I also know that many find great enjoyment and peace within the church.

[bluebell]

Just now, Johnnie Cake said:

yeah and I called him out as well...just less so than I did you....I just sensed some condescension in that particular post....but then I'm sure that my comment on fear losing its sting as a tactic once I lost belief in religion could also be seen as condescending as well...so I'll take it back.  I believe you are a good person...and maybe I'm being too sensitive.  I don't want to insinuate that one life choice is superior to the other.  While I would be miserable as a Mormon...I also know that many find great enjoyment and peace within the church.

I didn't read any condescension into your post and I meant none in mine either.  You said that you doubted a believer could understand feeling so free after leaving religion and I was speaking to that statement and how it's not hard to understand.  

Besides that though, i've always assumed, based on your posts, that you sincerely believe that being a nonbeliever is a superior way of life compared to being an active mormon.  I don't see anything wrong with that.  Do you not believe that?

 

 

[MiserereNobis]

11 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

yeah and I called him out as well...just less so than I did you....I just sensed some condescension in that particular post....but then I'm sure that my comment on fear losing its sting as a tactic once I lost belief in religion could also be seen as condescending as well...so I'll take it back.  I believe you are a good person...and maybe I'm being too sensitive.  I don't want to insinuate that one life choice is superior to the other.  While I would be miserable as a Mormon...I also know that many find great enjoyment and peace within the church.

I could see how my analogy could be taken the wrong way, which is why I said it was just analogy and I wasn't calling non-believers children.  I was also just pointing out my experience, as you were pointing out yours.  I think you are being too sensitive and I'm glad that you recognized that your post could be taken as condescending as well.  I didn't take it that way because I took it as you describing your own experience and not generalizing out to the rest of us believers, which is exactly how I wanted my post taken -- as my experience in converting and not generalizing out to other non-believers.

ETA: in other words, we're all cool, bro

 

Edited April 24, 2017 by MiserereNobis

[Johnnie Cake]

5 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Were you raised Mormon?  I wonder how much of it comes from being raised in a religion.  I've noticed as a convert to Catholicism, for example, that I don't seem to carry the emotional/psychological baggage that people that were raised Catholic sometimes do.

Sometimes coming to religion as an adult has the advantage of an adult mind being able to process the teachings and ideas.

Yes I was an fully believing Mormon for the majority of my life...until I wasn't

[Maestrophil]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

Nice point.  For me, this is the beauty of the confessional.  I love to be able to go and unburden my sins, faults, weaknesses, and struggles in a place set aside for such things to a priest whose job it is to hear, console, advise, and then absolve through the love and mercy of God and the atonement of Christ.  The ritual of confession is spiritually and psychologically healing.

I know LDS confession is different (only for major sins) but surely the personal confession to God and Christ would bring about the immediate fix Maestrophil mentions.  Perhaps when one is overwhelmed with fear and guilt, one should pray more for forgiveness and peace...?

But I do have to say the rite of confession, with it's closing "ego te absolvo a peccatis tuis in nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen" (I absolve you of your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit) brings a sense of closure and finality that I might not have if I were just praying by myself to God.  When I leave the confessional, I know the ready and immediate fix has happened.  That brings a lightness that is sweet to enjoy.

I am so glad you find the same peace and sanctuary in Christ my brother.  Thank you for your testimony.

[Johnnie Cake]

10 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I didn't read any condescension into your post and I meant none in mine either.  You said that you doubted a believer could understand feeling so free after leaving religion and I was speaking to that statement and how it's not hard to understand.  

Besides that though, i've always assumed, based on your posts, that you sincerely believe that being a nonbeliever is a superior way of life compared to being an active mormon.  I don't see anything wrong with that.  Do you not believe that?

 

 

I try to not view life outside of religion as superior.  I would never say that.  The beauty of human life is that we are each free (for the most part with the caveat that we are somewhat confined by culture, religious indoctrination and up bringing and I'm sure other factors) and as such not truly free, a to chose our life choices and to chose what is best for ourselves.  For me Life outside of Mormonism is the best decision for me and it is what brings me happiness and fulfillment in life...but that only applies to me.  I would never assume that what works best for me is what would be best for you or any one else....and in fact I'm guessing being an active believing Mormon brings you great happiness and satisfaction.

[Johnnie Cake]

21 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

I could see how my analogy could be taken the wrong way, which is why I said it was just analogy and I wasn't calling non-believers children.  I was also just pointing out my experience, as you were pointing out yours.  I think you are being too sensitive and I'm glad that you recognized that your post could be taken as condescending as well.  I didn't take it that way because I took it as you describing your own experience and not generalizing out to the rest of us believers, which is exactly how I wanted my post taken -- as my experience in converting and not generalizing out to other non-believers.

Yeah I tend to wear protective armor when on this board...guilty as charged.  I come at my posts on MD&D honestly and sincerely...but am often referred to as a troll or worse...even in this very thread.

Edited April 24, 2017 by Johnnie Cake

[cacheman]

48 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I have no idea what was offensive about my post.  I pretty much said exactly what MIserereNobis said, was his offensive as well?  I'm sincerely confused.

All I said was that i can understand why losing a belief in religion could make life seem so much freer and less restrictive.  It makes sense because you lose a lot of responsibility and work.  You get to be your own boss (so to speak) instead of being directed by someone (or something) else that you won't always agree with and being asked to do things you won't always want to do.

Is that offensive?

Hi bluebell,

Since the responsibility and work of living a purposeful and meaningful life remain after leaving any religion, a more appropriate analogy might be making a career move from an employed position to a self-employed position.  The specific work activities might change, but you still have the same basic responsibilities of providing for oneself and being a positive force for those around you.  Since there is nothing inherently wrong with either scenario, the analogy might be more tactful.

Edited April 24, 2017 by cacheman

[Jeanne]

11 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

Yeah I tend to wear protective armor when on this board...guilty as charged.  I come at my posts on MD&D honestly and sincerely...but am often referred to as a troll or worse...even in this very thread.

Me too.

[Johnnie Cake]

7 minutes ago, cacheman said:

Hi bluebell,

Since the responsibility and work of living a purposeful and meaningful life remain after leaving any religion, a more appropriate analogy might be making a career move from an employed position to a self-employed position.  The specific work activities might change, but you still have the same basic responsibilities of providing for oneself and being a positive force for those around you.  Since there is nothing inherently wrong with either scenario, the analogy might be more tactful.

Thank you for this...this analogy erases the sense of superiority.  Both choices are good and can bring happiness and fulfillment.  I'm glad that religion fills a need for the religious...and had things been different I would still be a believer...I didn't choose to be a non believer...but it is were I am because it is where I find peace.

Edited April 24, 2017 by Johnnie Cake

[hope_for_things]

1 hour ago, Johnnie Cake said:

While I appreciate Elder Uchtdorf's message...one thing that I wouldn't expect him to point out but I will is just how much fear loses its sting and effectiveness as a manipulative tool by the well meaning and the not so well meaning when one also loses belief in religion.

It's amazing how free the human mind is when one rids him or herself from the confines of religious dogma.  While I don't expect believers to share my perspective I did feel that it was important to at least state this reality. Its hard I know for believers to understand just how amazingly free life is outside of religion...for me it was like removing a restrictive piece of clothing and being able to take a deep breath of fresh air for the first time in my life...truly exhilarating.  I respect that believers will disagree.

I'll just add that one of the first things I lost belief in, even when I was still believing in a more theistic view of God than I do today, was the belief in a literal Satan character.  Losing this belief was a big relief for me personally as I'm naturally inclined towards perfectionism and I was constantly worried about my individual status and hounded by very small mistakes that I would make.

[bluebell]

3 minutes ago, cacheman said:

Hi bluebell,

Since the responsibility and work of living a purposeful and meaningful life remain after leaving any religion, a more appropriate analogy might be making a career move from an employed position to a self-employed position.  The specific work activities might change, but you still have the same basic responsibilities of providing for oneself and being a positive force for those around you.  Since there is nothing inherently wrong with either scenario, the analogy might be more tactful.

That could work.  

Though, my husband has moved from an employee position to a self employed position in the last few years and he gets people every week who come up to him and express how much they wish they could work for themselves, so i don't know that the employed verses self employed comparison is all that equal in most people's minds.  My own husband certainly thinks that the latter is superior to the former.

It seems like (speaking only from my experience) that most people, given the choice, would rather be self employed if they had that option.

I guess this is why using analogies can be a bit of a minefield.  Everyone has their own way of seeing things.  

[hope_for_things]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

It's very difficult to straddle the line between correctly teaching about consequences and using fear.  Even people who understand Uchtdorf's talk struggle with doing it well.

Not when your perspective is different from the average church member's perspective about consequences.  When I started thinking about consequences as natural and not punitive or contrived by a deity, then it became much easier for me.  

[bluebell]

4 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Not when your perspective is different from the average church member's perspective about consequences.  When I started thinking about consequences as natural and not punitive or contrived by a deity, then it became much easier for me.  

I agree, that can help.  I think it's an important distinction to make.