Johnnie Cake Posted April 25, 2017 Author Posted April 25, 2017 1 hour ago, rchorse said: Critics of the church use fear at times, as well, to try to manipulate believers. Fear of being labeled a bigot or closed-minded. Fear of missing out on things. Fear of being repressed or controlled. Fear of all this being wasted effort, because it's not true anyway. Fear of societal shame and ridicule. Fear of being deceived or lied to. And in some extreme cases, fear of loss of employment or invasion of privacy. I'll admit that the church has sometimes used fear, but the critics also need to get off their high horses and recognize that they, as a group, have done the same. We can all learn lessons from President Uchtdorf's words...I think it was wonderful council... 1
Popular Post Rain Posted April 25, 2017 Popular Post Posted April 25, 2017 This morning during family scriptures I kept coming back to this thread. I finally figured I better read the talk again in it's entirety. I'm glad because once again I think you miss a lot sometimes if you only use certain quotes. I've highlighted in orange what Johnny quoted. I have highlighted in green what I will talk about below. Quote My beloved brothers and sisters, dear friends, what a privilege and joy it is to meet as a worldwide Church united in our faith and love for God and His children. I am especially grateful for the presence of our beloved prophet, Thomas S. Monson. President, we will always take to heart your words of direction, counsel, and wisdom. We love you, President Monson, and we always pray for you. Years ago, when I was serving as stake president in Frankfurt, Germany, a dear but unhappy sister approached me at the end of one of our stake meetings. “Isn’t it terrible?” she said. “There must have been four or five people sound asleep during your talk!” I thought for a moment and answered, “I am pretty sure that church sleep is among the healthiest of all sleeps.” My wonderful wife, Harriet, overheard this casual exchange and later mentioned that it was one of the nicest answers I had ever given. The Great Awakening A few hundred years ago in North America, a movement called the “Great Awakening” spread across the countryside. One of its primary objectives was to awaken the people who appeared to be asleep regarding spiritual matters. Young Joseph Smith was influenced by the things he heard from preachers who were part of this religious awakening. It is one of the reasons he decided to seek earnestly the will of the Lord in private prayer. These preachers had a dramatic, emotional preaching style, with sermons that were known for their heavy emphasis on the fiery terrors of hell that await the sinner.1 Their speeches didn’t put people to sleep—but they may have caused a few nightmares. Their purpose and pattern seemed to be to frighten people into church. Fear as Manipulation Historically, fear has often been used as a means to get people to take action. Parents have used it with their children, employers with employees, and politicians with voters. Experts in marketing understand the power of fear and often employ it. This is why some advertisements seem to carry the implicit message that if we fail to buy their breakfast cereal or miss out on the newest video game or cell phone, we run the risk of living a miserable life, dying alone and unhappy. We smile at this and think we would never fall for such manipulation, but we sometimes do. Worse, we sometimes use similar methods to get others to do what we want. My message has two purposes today: The first is to urge us to contemplate and consider the extent to which we use fear to motivate others—including ourselves. The second is to suggest a better way. The Problem with Fear First, let us address the problem with fear. After all, who among us has never been compelled by fear to eat better, wear a seat belt, exercise more, save money, or even repent of sin? It is true that fear can have a powerful influence over our actions and behavior. But that influence tends to be temporary and shallow. Fear rarely has the power to change our hearts, and it will never transform us into people who love what is right and who want to obey Heavenly Father. People who are fearful may say and do the right things, but they do not feel the right things. They often feel helpless and resentful, even angry. Over time these feelings lead to mistrust, defiance, even rebellion. Unfortunately, this misguided approach to life and leadership is not limited to the secular world. It grieves me to hear of Church members who exercise unrighteous dominion—whether in their homes, in their Church callings, at work, or in their daily interactions with others. Often, people may condemn bullying in others, yet they cannot see it in themselves. They demand compliance with their own arbitrary rules, but when others don’t follow these random rules, they chasten them verbally, emotionally, and sometimes even physically. The Lord has said that “when we … exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, … the heavens withdraw themselves [and] the Spirit of the Lord is grieved.”2 There may be moments when we are tempted to justify our actions by believing that the end justifies the means. We might even think that to be controlling, manipulative, and harsh will be for the good of others. Not so, for the Lord has made it clear that “the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, [and] temperance.”3 A Better Way The more I come to know my Heavenly Father, the more I see how He inspires and leads His children. He is not angry, vengeful, or retaliatory.4His very purpose—His work and His glory—is to mentor us, exalt us, and lead us to His fulness.5 God described Himself to Moses as “merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth.”6 Our Father in Heaven’s love for us, His children, surpasses by far our ability to comprehend.7 Does this mean that God condones or overlooks behaviors that run contrary to His commands? No, definitely not! But He wants to change more than just our behaviors. He wants to change our very natures. He wants to change our hearts. He wants us to reach out and take firm hold of the iron rod, confront our fears, and bravely step forward and upward along the strait and narrow path. He wants this for us because He loves us and because this is the way to happiness. So, how does God motivate His children to follow Him in our day? He sent His Son! God sent His Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ, to show us the right way. God motivates through persuasion, long-suffering, gentleness, meekness, and love unfeigned.8 God is on our side. He loves us, and when we stumble, He wants us to rise up, try again, and become stronger. He is our mentor. He is our great and cherished hope. He desires to stimulate us with faith. He trusts us to learn from our missteps and make correct choices. This is the better way!9 What of the Evils of the World? One of the ways Satan wants us to manipulate others is by dwelling upon and even exaggerating the evil in the world. Certainly our world has always been, and will continue to be, imperfect. Far too many innocent people suffer because of circumstances of nature as well as from man’s inhumanity. The corruption and wickedness in our day are unique and alarming. But in spite of all this, I wouldn’t trade living in this time with any other time in the history of the world. We are blessed beyond measure to live in a day of unparalleled prosperity, enlightenment, and advantage. Most of all, we are blessed to have the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ, which gives us a unique perspective on the world’s dangers and shows us how to either avoid these dangers or deal with them. When I think of these blessings, I want to fall to my knees and offer praises to our Heavenly Father for His never-ending love for all of His children. I don’t believe God wants His children to be fearful or dwell on the evils of the world. “For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.”10 He has given us an abundance of reasons to rejoice. We just need to find and to recognize them. The Lord often reminds us to “be not afraid,” to “be of good cheer,”11 and to “fear not, little flock.”12 The Lord Will Fight Our Battles Brothers and sisters, we are the Lord’s “little flock.” We are the Saints of the latter days. Inherent in our name is the commitment to look forward to the Savior’s return and prepare ourselves and the world to receive Him. Therefore, let us serve God and love our fellowmen. Let us do this with a natural confidence, with humility, never looking down on any other religion or group of people. Brothers and sisters, we are charged with studying the word of God and heeding the voice of the Spirit, that we may “know the signs of the times, and the signs of the coming of the Son of Man.”13 We are, therefore, not ignorant of the challenges of the world, nor are we unaware of the difficulties of our times. But this does not mean that we should burden ourselves or others with constant fear. Rather than dwelling on the immensity of our challenges, would it not be better to focus on the infinite greatness, goodness, and absolute power of our God, trusting Him and preparing with a joyful heart for the return of Jesus the Christ? As His covenant people, we need not be paralyzed by fear because bad things might happen. Instead, we can move forward with faith, courage, determination, and trust in God as we approach the challenges and opportunities ahead.14 We do not walk the path of discipleship alone. “The Lord thy God … doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.”15 “The Lord will fight for you, and you shall hold your peace.”16 In the face of fear, let us find our courage, muster our faith, and have confidence in the promise that “no weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper.”17 Do we live in a time of peril and turmoil? Of course we do. God Himself has said, “In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.”18 Can we exercise the faith to believe and to act accordingly? Can we live up to our commitments and sacred covenants? Can we keep the commandments of God even in challenging circumstances? Of course we can! We can because God has promised, “All things shall work together for your good, if [you] walk uprightly.”19 Therefore, let us set aside our fears and live instead with joy, humility, hope, and a bold confidence that the Lord is with us. Perfect Love Casteth Out Fear My beloved friends, my dear brothers and sisters in Christ, if we ever find ourselves living in fear or anxiety, or if we ever find that our own words, attitudes, or actions are causing fear in others, I pray with all the strength of my soul that we may become liberated from this fear by the divinely appointed antidote to fear: the pure love of Christ, for “perfect love casteth out fear.”20 Christ’s perfect love overcomes temptations to harm, coerce, bully, or oppress. Christ’s perfect love allows us to walk with humility, dignity, and a bold confidence as followers of our beloved Savior. Christ’s perfect love gives us the confidence to press through our fears and place our complete trust in the power and goodness of our Heavenly Father and of His Son, Jesus Christ. In our homes, in our places of business, in our Church callings, in our hearts, let us replace fear with Christ’s perfect love. Christ’s love will replace fear with faith! His love will enable us to recognize, trust, and have faith in our Heavenly Father’s goodness, His divine plan, His gospel, and His commandments.21Loving God and our fellowmen will turn our obedience to God’s commandments into a blessing rather than a burden. Christ’s love will help us become a little kinder, more forgiving, more caring, and more dedicated to His work. As we fill our hearts with the love of Christ, we will awaken with a renewed spiritual freshness and we will walk joyfully, confidently, awake, and alive in the light and glory of our beloved Savior, Jesus Christ. I testify, with the Apostle John, “There is no fear in [Christ’s] love.”22Brothers and sisters, dear friends, God knows you perfectly. He loves you perfectly. He knows what your future holds. He wants you to “be not afraid, only believe”23 and “abide in his [perfect] love.”24 This is my prayer and blessing in the name of Jesus Christ, amen. Quote One of the ways Satan wants us to manipulate others is by dwelling upon and even exaggerating the evil in the world. Note he said, "dwelling upon" and "exaggerating" the evil. He did not say there is no evil. He did not say there is no Satan. He also didn't say the only way that Satan manipulates is is by doing this. He said "One" of the ways is by overdoing it. I think that one of the ways that Satan manipulates us is also understating the evil in the world. I also think the word "manipulate" is important. it takes into account intent. Your intent to force someone. Quote It is true that fear can have a powerful influence over our actions and behavior. But that influence tends to be temporary and shallow. Fear rarely has the power to change our hearts, and it will never transform us into people who love what is right and who want to obey Heavenly Father. I think this is very important. If you read through the scriptures you can see this - doing things through fear IS temporary. Quote Does this mean that God condones or overlooks behaviors that run contrary to His commands? No, definitely not! But He wants to change more than just our behaviors. He wants to change our very natures. He wants to change our hearts. He wants us to reach out and take firm hold of the iron rod, confront our fears, and bravely step forward and upward along the strait and narrow path. He wants this for us because He loves us and because this is the way to happiness. Quote God motivates through persuasion, long-suffering, gentleness, meekness, and love unfeigned.8 God is on our side. He loves us, and when we stumble, He wants us to rise up, try again, and become stronger. Reading through the old testament a couple of years ago I was impressed how many times they say the Lord's "hand is stretched out still." These are a people that kept doing wrong over and over again. They so often were not listening to the Lord. He was long suffering towards them. But like Elder Uchtdorf said the Lord does not overlook or condone bad behaviors. He loves us too much for that! He lets people know the consequences. Letting someone know the consequences is not manipulating them by fear. It is giving them the power to make good choices. When he finally had to let the consequences take affect it was almost always temporary. The only way it could go long term was when people took the gospel into their hearts. One of the reason the Lord allows people to have chances over and over again is because he doesn't want to manipulate through fear. If the mountain comes down upon you as soon as you do one wrong thing then that is a tool of manipulation. No, the Lord, lets us know consequences again and again, giving us chances to change our hearts, until he sees that our hearts are not going to change. Then he lets the consequences happen. Quote Brothers and sisters, we are charged with studying the word of God and heeding the voice of the Spirit, that we may “know the signs of the times, and the signs of the coming of the Son of Man.”13 We are, therefore, not ignorant of the challenges of the world, nor are we unaware of the difficulties of our times. But this does not mean that we should burden ourselves or others with constant fear. Rather than dwelling on the immensity of our challenges, would it not be better to focus on the infinite greatness, goodness, and absolute power of our God, trusting Him and preparing with a joyful heart for the return of Jesus the Christ? As His covenant people, we need not be paralyzed by fear because bad things might happen. Instead, we can move forward with faith, courage, determination, and trust in God as we approach the challenges and opportunities ahead.14 We do not walk the path of discipleship alone. “The Lord thy God … doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.”15 “The Lord will fight for you, and you shall hold your peace.”16 Here is a powerful thing about letting us know about consequences. When we see those things happening and we do our best to hold on to the Lord He stands with us. He makes it so we don't have to fear. In fact, because we know of the evil of the world and we know God's power then we can feel and actually be enabled by his power. 8
Johnnie Cake Posted April 25, 2017 Author Posted April 25, 2017 14 minutes ago, Rain said: This morning during family scriptures I kept coming back to this thread. I finally figured I better read the talk again in it's entirety. I'm glad because once again I think you miss a lot sometimes if you only use certain quotes. I've highlighted in orange what Johnny quoted. I have highlighted in green what I will talk about below. Note he said, "dwelling upon" and "exaggerating" the evil. He did not say there is no evil. He did not say there is no Satan. He also didn't say the only way that Satan manipulates is is by doing this. He said "One" of the ways is by overdoing it. I think that one of the ways that Satan manipulates us is also understating the evil in the world. I also think the word "manipulate" is important. it takes into account intent. Your intent to force someone. I think this is very important. If you read through the scriptures you can see this - doing things through fear IS temporary. Reading through the old testament a couple of years ago I was impressed how many times they say the Lord's "hand is stretched out still." These are a people that kept doing wrong over and over again. They so often were not listening to the Lord. He was long suffering towards them. But like Elder Uchtdorf said the Lord does not overlook or condone bad behaviors. He loves us too much for that! He lets people know the consequences. Letting someone know the consequences is not manipulating them by fear. It is giving them the power to make good choices. When he finally had to let the consequences take affect it was almost always temporary. The only way it could go long term was when people took the gospel into their hearts. One of the reason the Lord allows people to have chances over and over again is because he doesn't want to manipulate through fear. If the mountain comes down upon you as soon as you do one wrong thing then that is a tool of manipulation. No, the Lord, lets us know consequences again and again, giving us chances to change our hearts, until he sees that our hearts are not going to change. Then he lets the consequences happen. Here is a powerful thing about letting us know about consequences. When we see those things happening and we do our best to hold on to the Lord He stands with us. He makes it so we don't have to fear. In fact, because we know of the evil of the world and we know God's power then we can feel and actually be enabled by his power. I'll quote myself again... Quote We can all learn lessons from President Uchtdorf's words...I think it was wonderful council...
Rain Posted April 25, 2017 Posted April 25, 2017 21 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: I'll quote myself again... I'm confused. Does this mean you don't want more discussion? 2
Johnnie Cake Posted April 25, 2017 Author Posted April 25, 2017 15 minutes ago, Rain said: I'm confused. Does this mean you don't want more discussion? not at all...I'm merely pointing out that I enjoyed his entire address and not just the parts I specifically quoted from...
Popular Post pogi Posted April 25, 2017 Popular Post Posted April 25, 2017 On 4/24/2017 at 10:02 AM, rockpond said: I think where people will always differ on this is in determining what constitutes "dwelling upon" and exaggeration vs. what is a proper warning for the saints. I think you are right that people will differ in perceptions of what qualifies as an example of "exaggeration" and "dwelling on" fear. This meme is a perfect example that. If you were to read President Monson's talk, this quote is not an exaggeration, and his talk does not dwell on fear. His entire talk was about focusing on kindness, charity, love, and a testimony in Jesus Christ in an effort to combat the fear and evils that exist in the world today. President Monson's talk is in perfect harmony with President Uchtdorf's talk, which basically made the same observation of wickedness and corruption in the world today with the same suggested solution of focusing on love etc. Uchtdorf said in his talk, "the corruption and wickedness in our day are unique and alarming." Clearly he does NOT view President Monson's statement as an exaggeration, nor would he view his talk as fear based, rather it pointed to love. There are those who will always twist and manipulate messages to find fault with the church. They will use Uchtdorf's beautiful message to accuse any prophetic warning as a fear based manipulation. 5
rockpond Posted April 25, 2017 Posted April 25, 2017 12 minutes ago, pogi said: I think you are right that people will differ in perceptions of what qualifies as an example of "exaggeration" and "dwelling on" fear. This meme is a perfect example that. If you were to read President Monson's talk, this quote is not an exaggeration, and his talk does not dwell on fear. His entire talk was about focusing on kindness, charity, love, and a testimony in Jesus Christ in an effort to combat the fear and evils that exist in the world today. President Monson's talk is in perfect harmony with President Uchtdorf's talk, which basically made the same observation of wickedness and corruption in the world today with the same suggested solution of focusing on love etc. Uchtdorf said in his talk, "the corruption and wickedness in our day are unique and alarming." Clearly he does NOT view President Monson's statement as an exaggeration, nor would he view his talk as fear based, rather it pointed to love. There are those who will always twist and manipulate messages to find fault with the church. They will use Uchtdorf's beautiful message to accuse any prophetic warning as a fear based manipulation. Yes... both quotes in the meme are out of context. While I think the creator is guilty of creating a false criticism, I also think it illustrates how the "problem" that Uchtdorf warns of happens in the lives of church members: We (Mormons but maybe all of the religious world) are really good at proof-texting. Just as the critic did in this meme, the active member will do the same when they stand at the pulpit or in front of a classroom and speak of how scary the evil world is and how we must protect ourselves from it. I think it was a very timely message from President Uchtdorf and applies to many of us at all levels of belief and all levels of leadership in the church. 2
bluebell Posted April 25, 2017 Posted April 25, 2017 This topic is probably a good one for extreme preppers to mull over. There are lots of topics where focusing on fear can cause us to dwell on some issues too much and lose perspective. I personally could benefit from toning down my worry gene some, which is basically all about fear. 4
Johnnie Cake Posted April 25, 2017 Author Posted April 25, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, pogi said: I think you are right that people will differ in perceptions of what qualifies as an example of "exaggeration" and "dwelling on" fear. This meme is a perfect example that. If you were to read President Monson's talk, this quote is not an exaggeration, and his talk does not dwell on fear. His entire talk was about focusing on kindness, charity, love, and a testimony in Jesus Christ in an effort to combat the fear and evils that exist in the world today. President Monson's talk is in perfect harmony with President Uchtdorf's talk, which basically made the same observation of wickedness and corruption in the world today with the same suggested solution of focusing on love etc. Uchtdorf said in his talk, "the corruption and wickedness in our day are unique and alarming." Clearly he does NOT view President Monson's statement as an exaggeration, nor would he view his talk as fear based, rather it pointed to love. There are those who will always twist and manipulate messages to find fault with the church. They will use Uchtdorf's beautiful message to accuse any prophetic warning as a fear based manipulation. Just for the record...I too see this meme as a sad example of an out of context false criticism. There are plenty of points that can legitimately be discussed without resorting to this kind of out of context exaggeration. PS: Pogi, When is fear based motivation appropriate coming from a church? Edited April 25, 2017 by Johnnie Cake 1
Johnnie Cake Posted April 25, 2017 Author Posted April 25, 2017 1 hour ago, bluebell said: This topic is probably a good one for extreme preppers to mull over. There are lots of topics where focusing on fear can cause us to dwell on some issues too much and lose perspective. I personally could benefit from toning down my worry gene some, which is basically all about fear. Funny but that was my exact thought when I first listened to this talk...Julie Rowe and her ilk of fundie preppers have been appropriately warned to back down...but were they listening...I rather doubt it 1
pogi Posted April 25, 2017 Posted April 25, 2017 (edited) On 4/24/2017 at 11:00 AM, HappyJackWagon said: The good ship Zion is a fear based metaphor I actually like the metaphor and don't think it is fear based when taught correctly. Here is the thing about fear, it's not all bad. The scriptures, and Christ himself, appropriately used fear as a tool for learning. I think Uchtdorf correctly put fear it in its proper perspective, without removing it entirely as a useful tool of caution and warning in teaching boundaries and consequences. The main point he made is that we should not dwell on it, exaggerate it, or use it to manipulate in unrighteous dominion, but that our emphasis should be on the positive aspects of the gospel. The good ship Zion is a hope based metaphor, not fear based. It teaches proper boundaries for safety and respect of the ocean, while emphasizing the joy and security that comes from trusting in the Lord. Quote "We are on the old ship Zion. … [God] is at the helm and will stay there. … All is right, sing Hallelujah, for the Lord is here. He dictates, guides and directs. If the people will have implicit confidence in their God, never forsake their covenants nor their God, He will guide us right." Brigham Young Do you see the emphasis there? The scriptures teach us to fear the Lord. I think this type of fear is appropriately interpreted as "respect", and that is how fear should be used in the church. The ocean is a lot like the Lord (to use a different metaphor), it deserves our respect. Like the Lord, we are drawn to the ocean for its magnificence, power, beauty, and life. It is an endless source of inspiration. However, anyone who has ever spent time on the ocean knows to give it the respect it deserves. While we should not be so consumed with fear and anxiety about the ocean that we are afraid to enjoy it and partake of its blessings, without a healthy sense of fear/respect and understanding of proper boundaries, the ocean can swallow us up. This understanding helps us to enjoy the ocean safely, to partake of its blessings while avoiding the consequences of ignorance and carelessness. The church and the prophets give warnings not to dwell on fear, but to allow us to dwell in safety and joy. That is the emphasis of the church in general as I see it - that we might have joy. Edited April 25, 2017 by pogi 2
pogi Posted April 25, 2017 Posted April 25, 2017 1 hour ago, Johnnie Cake said: PS: Pogi, When is fear based motivation appropriate coming from a church? See my last post, I think it answers your question. 1
Freedom Posted April 26, 2017 Posted April 26, 2017 13 hours ago, rockpond said: I'm not sure how you conclude that the evidence is overwhelmingly against Johnnie. I provided an example of fear being used by our prophet right in that very same conference. If the church wasn't guilty of using fear, why did an apostle need to counsel against it? You just applied a logical fallacy. This is like saying, "if the church is not guilty of pornography, why did an apostle need to counsel against it". The church decidedly does not use guilt and fear. It uses gentle persuasion by teaching us how to love one another and now to be better people.
Freedom Posted April 26, 2017 Posted April 26, 2017 10 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: You asked for an example...I provided 2. It just so happened that one was from BY used in the 1850's and the same quote used recently in the BY lesson manual. That this is the same quote is immaterial. I love that. 'I used two quotes'. So if I use a quote from someone 500 times I can claim I provided 500 examples? 1
Johnnie Cake Posted April 26, 2017 Author Posted April 26, 2017 9 minutes ago, Freedom said: I love that. 'I used two quotes'. So if I use a quote from someone 500 times I can claim I provided 500 examples? Yes if that quote is used in different scenarios 500 times...but not if the same person says the same thing 500 times...that wouldn't qualify 😜 but again you asked for an example which I've provided. I gave an example of institutional fear from both the 1850's and a recent example of institutional fear. Plus I've given you a long list of other situations where fear is used. Thanks
Johnnie Cake Posted April 26, 2017 Author Posted April 26, 2017 22 minutes ago, Freedom said: You just applied a logical fallacy. This is like saying, "if the church is not guilty of pornography, why did an apostle need to counsel against it". The church decidedly does not use guilt and fear. It uses gentle persuasion by teaching us how to love one another and now to be better people. And yet several belivers within this very thread have acknowledged the use of fear by the church...don't believe me, believe them
pogi Posted April 26, 2017 Posted April 26, 2017 27 minutes ago, Freedom said: The church decidedly does not use guilt and fear. It uses gentle persuasion by teaching us how to love one another and now to be better people. I think we need to acknowledge that our leaders are human and have at times innapropriately used guilt and fear. But I agree that the overall spirit, teaching and emphasis of the church is positive and uplifting rather than fear or guilt based. 2
HappyJackWagon Posted April 26, 2017 Posted April 26, 2017 On 4/24/2017 at 7:46 PM, Robert F. Smith said: You were painting modern Mormonism with the brush of hysteria and fear-mongering, which just does not take place today. Quite the opposite. If you have to go back to the 19th century to find actual hysteria, that shows how much of a reach it takes. Are you challenging the premise of the OP? If so, you are making an overt criticism/accusation that this thread is nothing more than an attempt to fear-monger and hysteria. But isn't a discussion board about discussing the various topics presented, which is what is happening here? I don't think there is much need to totally dismiss an idea or OP because you don't agree with it. And if you think that fear was only used as a motivator by the church in the 19th century, I don't think you're paying very close attention There are many examples, some of which have already been shared here.
Robert F. Smith Posted April 26, 2017 Posted April 26, 2017 (edited) 9 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said: Quote On 4/24/2017 at 6:46 PM, Robert F. Smith said: You were painting modern Mormonism with the brush of hysteria and fear-mongering, which just does not take place today. Quite the opposite. If you have to go back to the 19th century to find actual hysteria, that shows how much of a reach it takes. Are you challenging the premise of the OP? If so, you are making an overt criticism/accusation that this thread is nothing more than an attempt to fear-monger and hysteria. But isn't a discussion board about discussing the various topics presented, which is what is happening here? I don't think there is much need to totally dismiss an idea or OP because you don't agree with it. And if you think that fear was only used as a motivator by the church in the 19th century, I don't think you're paying very close attention There are many examples, some of which have already been shared here. The premise of Johnnie's OP was that modern Mormonism purveys fear as standard procedure, and that Pres Uchtdorf believes that. Both propositions are grossly false. I responded to that false notion in detail, and have found no evidence to the contrary. My personal agreement or disagreement with an OP is not relevant. Only the evidence is relevant. Edited April 26, 2017 by Robert F. Smith 1
Freedom Posted April 27, 2017 Posted April 27, 2017 On 4/25/2017 at 6:20 PM, Johnnie Cake said: And yet several belivers within this very thread have acknowledged the use of fear by the church...don't believe me, believe them I don't 'believe' in opinions, I believe in evidence. In order to prove that the church uses fear as a matter of course you have to demonstrate that this is the method the church uses. It is not. Your quote references the condition of the last days. This is not fear mongering, this is prophesy. Each time such a quote is provided, it is always couched in the teaching that the righteous have no need to fear, that despite the fact that perilous times will come (which the will, and this is not to push fear but to present doctrinal fact), the future is bright. 99.99% of church teachings are about joy, you are trying to argue that the .01% that discusses the end of days is sufficient proof of fear mongering. That is, in a word, ignorant. But it is your consistent pattern.
Freedom Posted April 27, 2017 Posted April 27, 2017 On 4/25/2017 at 6:35 PM, pogi said: I think we need to acknowledge that our leaders are human and have at times innapropriately used guilt and fear. But I agree that the overall spirit, teaching and emphasis of the church is positive and uplifting rather than fear or guilt based. Do you have any statistics on how many times a given church leader uses such an approach, or for that matter how many church leaders over the past 30 years use fear and guilt inappropriately? I suspect you have no such evidence. You may be able to quote mine and fine one or two examples, or try to argue that any mention of the consequence of sin as fear mongering (which it is not), but the reality is, the church has consistently NOT used this approach. The Last Days are part of our doctrine and teaching it is not fear mongering, just as teaching apprentice mechanical contractors of the dangers of carbon monoxide is not fear mongering, or teaching a new driver of the dangerous risks of distracted driving is not fear mongering. It is presenting facts.
Calm Posted April 27, 2017 Posted April 27, 2017 11 minutes ago, Freedom said: but the reality is, the church has consistently NOT used this approach..... I believe this is what Pogi meant by saying the overall spirit is positive.
Johnnie Cake Posted April 27, 2017 Author Posted April 27, 2017 1 hour ago, Freedom said: I don't 'believe' in opinions, I believe in evidence. In order to prove that the church uses fear as a matter of course you have to demonstrate that this is the method the church uses. It is not. Your quote references the condition of the last days. This is not fear mongering, this is prophesy. Each time such a quote is provided, it is always couched in the teaching that the righteous have no need to fear, that despite the fact that perilous times will come (which the will, and this is not to push fear but to present doctrinal fact), the future is bright. 99.99% of church teachings are about joy, you are trying to argue that the .01% that discusses the end of days is sufficient proof of fear mongering. That is, in a word, ignorant. But it is your consistent pattern. I've given you multiple examples where fear has been/is used in the church. I've said that the church also uses positive means to achieve its goals. You're now making things up and exaggerating what I've said why for what purpose? I'm done, I can't help you further....
pogi Posted April 27, 2017 Posted April 27, 2017 (edited) Freedom, maybe you missed the part where I said that I basically agree with you in the general sense. You just need to be a little less absolute in your statements. The church and its leaders are not perfect, and presenting them as such is misguided. Your apparent position of perfection is unsustainable. I don't know what you think my position is here, but I never made a statistical argument, and I don't need to know how many leaders over the past 30 years have used guilt and fear inappropriately to support my claim. I only need a few examples (which I have). You yourself acknowledge that I may be able to "quote mine" and find a few examples, so what's your beef? I could offer you some examples, but I don't like to unnecessarily air the imperfections of the brethren in order to prove a point, out of respect. But, if you force my hand with a CFR, I will unhappily oblige you with the evidence. Edited April 27, 2017 by pogi
Freedom Posted April 27, 2017 Posted April 27, 2017 1 hour ago, pogi said: Freedom, maybe you missed the part where I said that I basically agree with you in the general sense. You just need to be a little less absolute in your statements. The church and its leaders are not perfect, and presenting them as such is misguided. Your apparent position of perfection is unsustainable. I don't know what you think my position is here, but I never made a statistical argument, and I don't need to know how many leaders over the past 30 years have used guilt and fear inappropriately to support my claim. I only need a few examples (which I have). You yourself acknowledge that I may be able to "quote mine" and find a few examples, so what's your beef? I could offer you some examples, but I don't like to unnecessarily air the imperfections of the brethren in order to prove a point, out of respect. But, if you force my hand with a CFR, I will unhappily oblige you with the evidence. I did not mean you specifically. Claiming a reference to the last days is using fear is silly, just as advising of any consequences is using fear. it is using facts. Fear suggests using of threats. The leap goes from finding one or two quotes form individuals that can be perceived to be using fear, to claiming the church uses fear. There are no examples I can think of where the church uses fear. Yes, from time to time an individual may do so, but looking through the manuals of the church it just is not there. It is like saying a food chain uses addictive products to bring their customers back when in reality, the food chain happens to have a pharmacy and some of the drugs sold at the pharmacy may have addicting qualities.
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