Pres. Nelson's Atonement quotation

[Garden Girl]

16 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

GG, nearly every F&T meeting in my ward has the little ones baring their testimonies, some in their parents arms. And everyone just loves it, they think it's so sweet. I keep remembering that it's been said that they should wait till they are at least eight. But apparently my bishop thinks it's just fine...so be it. 

Sorry Tacenda... I've never found little ones too young to understand a testimony, just parroting their parents, to be cute or sweet.  Although, there were those ward members who did... but I was glad to see it stopped.  What I do appreciate is a young child of 10 or so who can walk up to and stand at the podium with a modicum of understanding about a testimony.  (Perhaps I don't find it cute because it's not my child).   

GG

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

GG, nearly every F&T meeting in my ward has the little ones baring their testimonies, some in their parents arms. And everyone just loves it, they think it's so sweet. I keep remembering that it's been said that they should wait till they are at least eight. But apparently my bishop thinks it's just fine...so be it. 

I agree that can get pretty old. 

[Tacenda]

12 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I agree that can get pretty old. 

It tends to run in families too. But maybe it's more and more because people must think it's okay again. ETA: Just thought of something, I wonder if some of these children are eight and just look 5 or 6. There are a lot of new move-ins that I don't know their families.

Edited April 3, 2017 by Tacenda

[SamIam]

11 hours ago, Duncan said:

Yestarday Pres. Nelson said that "Don't be confused, it is not the Atonement which saves us, it is Jesus Christ" How does that make sense in light of the 3rd AOF which says,  "'We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel." How are we saved?

This is actually the second time I have heard something along this line and I think there is an effort to not only make the atonement about Jesus Christ but also to correct some very pervasive and long held mentalities about what the atonement is and how it works. The other reference I transcribed from the original source.  It seems like this subject is being discussed amongst the brethren and seeing how they are discussing the subject may help us get a better idea of what President Nelson was implying.

In a recent, taped youth event titled Face to Face, an apostle and a member of the first presidency, President Henry B. Eyring and Jeffrey R. Holland did a question and answer session that provided for me the first time I had ever heard this doctrine taught the way I have come to understand it.  I transcribed that section here:

Question: What exactly is the atonement and how can I receive its blessings and one thing I have always wondered but have never been able to find my answer to is how do I access the atonement. Is all I have to do is just ask God for the atonement to take place in my life?

President Eyring: Could I … First thing to do is to get a few facts straight.  The atonement was something that Jesus Christ Did.  It's not a thing itself he atoned for our sins and he paid the price to allow us to be forgiven and to be resurrected...alright.so it's what he did that qualified him to give us forgiveness to change our hearts and it's the Holy Ghost that is doing that.It's not the atonement as if it is a thing itself. 

The atonement is something the Savior did and the Father has given Him, because of that great sacrifice that He made for us, the power to forgive us.  And so when you feel forgiveness that is not the atonement - that's the Savior giving you a feeling of forgiveness because of the atonement.(President Henry B. Eyring, Face To Face, March 4th 2017 )

The underlined portion is constructed in such a way as that anyone who is comfortable hearing “Christ paid the price for our sins” will hear that and perhaps miss the specificity of the mechanism that President Eyering relates which more accurately defines the mechanism that his sacrifice gave him access too – that being that it placed Christ in the position as the offended one who could forgive or demand justice as he saw appropriate.

Edited April 3, 2017 by SamIam

[Duncan]

Just now, SamIam said:

This is actually the second time I have heard something along this line and I think there is an effort to not only make the atonement about Jesus Christ but also to correct some very pervasive and long held mentalities about what the atonement is and how it works. The other reference I transcribed from the original source.

In a recent, taped youth event titled Face to Face, two apostles, President Henry B. Eyring and Jeffrey R. Holland did a question and answer session that provided for me the first time I had ever heard this doctrine taught the way I have come to understand it.  I transcribed that section here:

 

 

 

Question: What exactly is the atonement and how can I receive its blessings and one thing I have always wondered but have never been able to find my answer to is how do I access the atonement. Is all I have to do is just ask God for the atonement to take place in my life?

 

 

 

President Eyring: Could I … First thing to do is to get a few facts straight.  The atonement was something that Jesus Christ Did.  It's not a thing itself he atoned for our sins and he paid the price to allow us to be forgiven and to be resurrected...alright.so it's what he did that qualified him to give us forgiveness to change our hearts and it's the Holy Ghost that is doing that.It's not the atonement as if it is a thing itself. 

 

 

 

The atonement is something the Savior did and the Father has given Him, because of that great sacrifice that He made for us, the power to forgive us.  And so when you feel forgiveness that is not the atonement - that's the Savior giving you a feeling of forgiveness because of the atonement.(President Henry B. Eyring, Face To Face, March 4th 2017 )

 

 

 

The underlined portion is constructed in such a way as that anyone who is comfortable hearing “Christ paid the price for our sins” will hear that and perhaps miss the specificity of the mechanism that President Eyering relates which more accurately defines the mechanism that his sacrifice gave him access too – that being that it placed Christ in the position as the offeneded one who could forgive or demand justice as he saw appropriate.

 

okay, i'm going to digest this, it'll take some time! Thank you!

[SamIam]

2 minutes ago, Duncan said:

okay, i'm going to digest this, it'll take some time! Thank you!

If you wish to hear the whole section, it starts at about 1 hour and 3 minutes into the taped event. A link to access is:

https://www.lds.org/church/events/face-to-face-with-president-eyring-and-elder-holland?lang=eng

Edited April 3, 2017 by SamIam

[sunstoned]

delete

 

[JAHS]

I have seen several other references that talk of the power of the atonement to help us overcome sin or how it can save us, as if it is a thing by itself.

“The enabling power of the Atonement strengthens us to do and be good and to serve beyond our own individual desire and natural capacity.”
(Elder David A. Bednar of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, “The Atonement and the Journey of Mortality,” Ensign, Apr. 2012, 42–43)

"The Atonement can heal the effects of tasting all of this bitterness. This healing power cleanses our spirits, upon condition of repentance, when our souls are soiled with sin."
(Beauty for Ashes: The Atonement of Jesus Christ By Bruce C. Hafen)

"The Atonement ransoms men from the Fall and saves them from death and hell, 2 Ne. 9:5–24."  (Guide to the Scriptures - Atonement)

"For the atonement satisfieth the demands of his justice upon all those who have not the law given to them, that they are delivered from that awful monster, death and hell, and the devil, and the lake of fire and brimstone"  (2 Nephi 9: 26)

“We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.” [A of F 1:3]

These seem to contradict what Elder Nelson said or perhaps it can do these things but Elder Nelson is just trying to emphasize the total involvement of Christ in it.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, JAHS said:

I have seen several other references that talk of the power of the atonement to help us overcome sin or how it can save us, as if it is a thing by itself.

“The enabling power of the Atonement strengthens us to do and be good and to serve beyond our own individual desire and natural capacity.”
(Elder David A. Bednar of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, “The Atonement and the Journey of Mortality,” Ensign, Apr. 2012, 42–43)

"The Atonement can heal the effects of tasting all of this bitterness. This healing power cleanses our spirits, upon condition of repentance, when our souls are soiled with sin."
(Beauty for Ashes: The Atonement of Jesus Christ By Bruce C. Hafen)

"The Atonement ransoms men from the Fall and saves them from death and hell, 2 Ne. 9:5–24."  (Guide to the Scriptures - Atonement)

"For the atonement satisfieth the demands of his justice upon all those who have not the law given to them, that they are delivered from that awful monster, death and hell, and the devil, and the lake of fire and brimstone"  (2 Nephi 9: 26)

“We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.” [A of F 1:3]

These seem to contradict what Elder Nelson said or perhaps it can do these things but Elder Nelson is just trying to emphasize the total involvement of Christ in it.

None of the statements are wrong. Elder Nelson was just saying a person was doing these things, not an independent process or event and that it is important to remember that. When the atonement heals us it is Christ healing us.

[Thinking]

15 hours ago, bluebell said:

He was trying to get people to more fully realize that the term "the Atonement" is incomplete. It is "the Atonement of Christ" that saves, not the Atonement.

If there was another atonement, then I could see the need for clarification.

I have exactly one wife. If I say "my wife" without calling her by name, is anybody going to be confused and think I am talking about another woman other than her?

[Meadowchik]

Delete by way of edit:

I agree that emphasizing Christ is good in context of the Atonement. For me, so much of it involves accepting the real gift from the real person Jesus Christ.

Gotta keep it real!

Edited April 3, 2017 by Meadowchik
wrong thread, replaced with relevant comment instead

[bluebell]

5 hours ago, Thinking said:

If there was another atonement, then I could see the need for clarification.

I have exactly one wife. If I say "my wife" without calling her by name, is anybody going to be confused and think I am talking about another woman other than her?

You've illustrated the point perfectly.   Whatever her name is, she is your wife. 

The Savior isn't the Atonement.   The Atonement is a tool that the Savior uses, it's not Him. 

 

[Rain]

8 hours ago, JAHS said:

I have seen several other references that talk of the power of the atonement to help us overcome sin or how it can save us, as if it is a thing by itself.

“The enabling power of the Atonement strengthens us to do and be good and to serve beyond our own individual desire and natural capacity.”
(Elder David A. Bednar of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, “The Atonement and the Journey of Mortality,” Ensign, Apr. 2012, 42–43)

"The Atonement can heal the effects of tasting all of this bitterness. This healing power cleanses our spirits, upon condition of repentance, when our souls are soiled with sin."
(Beauty for Ashes: The Atonement of Jesus Christ By Bruce C. Hafen)

"The Atonement ransoms men from the Fall and saves them from death and hell, 2 Ne. 9:5–24."  (Guide to the Scriptures - Atonement)

"For the atonement satisfieth the demands of his justice upon all those who have not the law given to them, that they are delivered from that awful monster, death and hell, and the devil, and the lake of fire and brimstone"  (2 Nephi 9: 26)

“We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.” [A of F 1:3]

These seem to contradict what Elder Nelson said or perhaps it can do these things but Elder Nelson is just trying to emphasize the total involvement of Christ in it.

Funny you choose the first one. I gave a talk using part of that talk on Sunday.

I would agree with your assessment of these IF this was all there is to them. The talks all talk of Christ being the one who is doing it. They just don't seem to be doing it in the quote you captured from them. I didn't check the guide to the scriptures one and the AofF one seems to do it, though it says the "atonement of Christ", not the "atonement" which makes it a given to me that Christ is the one doing it.

Without having heard the talk again I would bet you are right that he is trying to emphasize it. I'll have to listen again. 

[Rain]

3 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

 

*BTW, do yourealize that this is a different thread from the one where I created the "parable of Steve?" That's okay, though! 

Sorry, board glitch. I've erased my post on this thread to keep this on topic now. 

Edited April 3, 2017 by Rain

[Meadowchik]

20 minutes ago, Rain said:

Sorry, board glitch. I've erased my post on this this thread to keep this on topic now. 

I'll do the same!

[Rain]

Posting this link here because every time I try to access it from my phone, LDS.org opens my app takes me to "conference" and the talk isn't there yet.  Hoping the direct link will take me right to it on my phone and this will help others get to it as well.  Elder Nelson's talk.

[stemelbow]

This is the kind of stuff that is conference, for sure.  "I gotsta tell everyone that the atonement actually involved Christ.  If I don't they're going to be confused and think the atonement is something that doesn't involve Christ." 

I'm not sure there's a purpose to it, but it seems to be what's considered revelation these days--the important stuff we have to hear. 

[Rain]

Ok,  just listened again. Much of what he talked about had been on my mind the last several weeks as I prepared for my talk. In fact I posted this thread thinking along the lines of how it is Christ's power that enables us. 

I thought of how Moses 1:39 describes his mission. Elder Nelson basically says the same thing when he talks about the atonement being his mission. 

Over the years I have wondered how Christ physically did the atonement  (and made a thread about it). 

So for me, this goes right along with what I have had in mind for years. 

I find Christ and the atonement intrisically connected. It's hard for me to imagine talking about one without it being fully connected to the other.  

I have no problems with what Elder Nelson was saying and think it was a great topic to share.

Listening again I found one line that made me pause. I wish I could copy and paste it, but the transcription is not up yet.

It came around 4:00. Something along the line of "these expressions (the atonement, the enabling power of the atonement etc ) present a real risk of misdirecting faith by treating the event as if it had living existence and capabilities independent of our Heavenly Father, and his son, Jesus Christ." 

I think that is the whole crux for me. I just can't imagine the atonement being independent of Christ. But like I have described above about the topic of Christ in sacrament meetings perhaps there are people/wards/areas in the world where people ARE thinking of the term independentally. It would make sense that Elder Nelson would talk about it then.  I know there are conference talks over the years that one simple concept finally filled in holes of my understanding and I don't expect that to stop. And it isn't always the words or the knowledge that is filled in. Sometimes the Spirit fills in this bloom of understanding that really is greater than the words we can use to describe it. I suspect that is what happened with bluebell and others.

Edited April 3, 2017 by Rain

[clarkgoble]

10 hours ago, JAHS said:

These seem to contradict what Elder Nelson said or perhaps it can do these things but Elder Nelson is just trying to emphasize the total involvement of Christ in it.

Not quite sure the argument. I don't think those contradict so much as are getting at different aspects of the atonement. The key point of the atonement is its transformative nature. The culmination of the atonement in our lives is getting resurrected which literally gives us a different sort of body. But in the short term the atonement through the spirit can give us strength we otherwise would not have to resist our inclinations. The two aspects of the atonement are often put as justification and sanctification. The former is just the ability to be called right in terms of some judicial component. To my eyes that's the less interesting part for a variety of reasons. The more interesting part is the sanctification. If you think of the sacrament prayers as it relates to sanctification by the spirit as atonement then I think you get the idea of a process of making us like Christ through the atonement. 

[rongo]

Here's another wrinkle. We emphasize Christ and the atonement (properly so), but I don't think we emphasize the role that the Holy Ghost plays enough. When we renew our baptismal covenants with the sacrament, nothing is said about forgiveness of sins. We promise to always remember him, and to keep his commandments, and he promises us that his spirit will be with us. Forgiveness of sins comes through the sanctification of the Spirit. Christ taught the Nephites (3 Nephi 27) that the Holy Ghost sanctifies us, and that's what the baptism with fire is. So, while Christ wrought the atonement and makes forgiveness possible, the cleansing and sanctifying is done by the Holy Ghost --- the member of the Godhead we have the most contact with and the most day-to-day interaction with. 

I think focusing solely on Christ leads us to de-emphasize other important things. Balance is needed.

I am a little confused at President Nelson's emphasis here. When we talk about the atonement, it is a given that Jesus wrought the atonement. I don't think anyone misunderstands that. Nor do I think that anyone referencing the atonement without specifying that Jesus wrought it is somehow de-emphasizing Jesus or treating the atonement as a separate thing from Jesus. It looks like a solution in search of a problem.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

This is the kind of stuff that is conference, for sure.  "I gotsta tell everyone that the atonement actually involved Christ.  If I don't they're going to be confused and think the atonement is something that doesn't involve Christ." 

I'm not sure there's a purpose to it, but it seems to be what's considered revelation these days--the important stuff we have to hear. 

Earlier in the thread, a poster provided an example of a teenager who didn't seem to understand the difference between the Atonement and the Savior.  I have a teenager and i'm around them in my calling and that example wasn't unique.  

Maybe that is why Elder Nelson felt it was important to clarify the issue.

[stemelbow]

1 minute ago, bluebell said:

Earlier in the thread, a poster provided an example of a teenager who didn't seem to understand the difference between the Atonement and the Savior.  I have a teenager and i'm around them in my calling and that example wasn't unique.  

Maybe that is why Elder Nelson felt it was important to clarify the issue.

Maybe there are a couple of teenagers out there that don't know that Christ did the atonement, but it's gotta be rare.  The quote earlier from the teenager doesn't indicate the teenager didn't know that Christ did the atonement.  That was the assumption by the answerer, though.  The teenager clearly, though, thought the word atonement was something he/she did when trying to apply it. 

[rongo]

4 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Earlier in the thread, a poster provided an example of a teenager who didn't seem to understand the difference between the Atonement and the Savior.  I have a teenager and i'm around them in my calling and that example wasn't unique.  

How is this possible? We're in, what, the 4th year of Come Follow Me, where the youth get two hours of the atonement every Sunday every March? 

How can anyone not understand the difference be between the atonement and Jesus? One might not be able to articulate what the atonement is very well, but they should at least be able to distinguish between a person and the thing you can't explain very well . . .  

[mfbukowski]

On 4/2/2017 at 8:36 AM, Duncan said:

Yestarday Pres. Nelson said that "Don't be confused, it is not the Atonement which saves us, it is Jesus Christ" How does that make sense in light of the 3rd AOF which says,  "'We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel." How are we saved?

Did you listen to the rest of the talk at all?

"The Atonement OF CHRIST"as a phrase, fits in perfectly with every other word he said.  The entire point is to realized WHO made the "event" possible, if you think of it as an "event".

CHRIST gives us hope of forgiveness, no event could do that.

God is not about history or events, God and religion is about BELIEFS which give us HOPE for things unseen which we call "faith".

God does not care about events - he cares about what we BELIEVE because only through that HOPE of faith does forgiveness happen.  God cares about the content of our hearts, not events.  Belief in the atonement is about changing your heart to a Christ centered way of life.

The atonement is not like washing your car to make it clean.

 

[Duncan]

Just now, mfbukowski said:

Did you listen to the rest of the talk at all?

"The Atonement OF CHRIST"as a phrase, fits in perfectly with every other word he said.  The entire point is to realized WHO made the "event" possible, if you think of it as an "event".

CHRIST gives us hope of forgiveness, no event could do that.

God is not about history or events, God and religion is about BELIEFS which give us HOPE for things unseen which we call "faith".

God does not care about events - he cares about what we BELIEVE because only through that HOPE of faith does forgiveness happen.  God cares about the content of our hearts, not events.  Belief in the atonement is about changing your heart to a Christ centered way of life.

The atonement is not like washing your car to make it clean.

 

I did! the atonement is about washing your car to make it clean and the enabling power is to keep it clean