Looking for a specific reference of Christ's sinless life enabling him to atone

[Rain]

I have been preparing to give a talk on the enabling power of the atonement.  I read something this past week that really stuck out to me, but I cannot find it now.  It may have been a BYU speech, but I just am not finding it. He said something about living a sinless life enabled Jesus to atone for us.  Now I can find LOTS of things similar and lots of things that give the same idea.  I just able not finding success in finding the sentence that because he lived without sin it "enabled" him to atone.

In other words all in one sentence: sinless enabled atonement. 

My next thinking, after reading it initially,  was that it matches: atonement enables us to be free from sin. 

Any chance someone is familiar with that specific passage? 

 

[Duncan]

try this by Elder Bednar, maybe it's in there?

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/david-a-bednar_strength-lord/

[Rain]

Thank you for the link.  Wonderful talk.  There are passages in it that I would like to use in my talk.  But I am not finding the line.  Am I just missing it?  

[CV75]

50 minutes ago, Rain said:

I have been preparing to give a talk on the enabling power of the atonement.  I read something this past week that really stuck out to me, but I cannot find it now.  It may have been a BYU speech, but I just am not finding it. He said something about living a sinless life enabled Jesus to atone for us.  Now I can find LOTS of things similar and lots of things that give the same idea.  I just able not finding success in finding the sentence that because he lived without sin it "enabled" him to atone.

In other words all in one sentence: sinless enabled atonement. 

My next thinking, after reading it initially,  was that it matches: atonement enables us to be free from sin. 

Any chance someone is familiar with that specific passage?

 

"Jesus Christ, as the Only Begotten Son of God and the only sinless person to live on this earth, was the only one capable of making an atonement for mankind."

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/atonement

"This infinite Atonement of Christ-and of Christ only-was possible because (1) he was the only sinless man ever to live on this earth and therefore was not subject to the spiritual death that comes as a result of sin; (2) he was the Only Begotten of the Father and therefore possessed the attributes of Godhood, which gave him power over physical death (see 2 Ne. 9:5-9; Alma 34:9-12); and (3) he was the only one sufficiently humble and willing in the premortal council to be foreordained there to that service (JC, pp. 21-62)."

http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Atonement_of_Jesus_Christ

Hebrews 9:14-15, “How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.”

Moroni 10:33, “And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.”

Edited March 24, 2017 by CV75

[rongo]

Brad Wilcox on grace?

[Rain]

Thanks CV75.  Not quite.  They gave the same idea, but it isn't the specific sentence that the sinless life enables Him.

 

Rongo - I'll check through it, but I don't think so.  It's interesting to me that it is still the top viewed talk at BYU speeches.  

[JAHS]

"Because of his sinless life, his genetic nature as the Only Begotten of the Father, and his willingness to drink the bitter cup of justice, the Savior was able to atone unconditionally for Adam and Eve’s transgression and for physical death and to atone conditionally for our personal sins."  (Bruce C. Hafen)
https://www.lds.org/liahona/1997/04/beauty-for-ashes-the-atonement-of-jesus-christ?lang=eng

I see a lot of talks that say basically the same thing as what you want so it's hard to find the exact quote you are looking for.

 

[Rain]

OK, didn't find it in the Wilcox talk.

I keep thinking back to the Bednar talk though.

Quote

If I were to emphasize one overarching point this morning, it would be this: I suspect that you and I are much more familiar with the nature of the redeeming power of the Atonement than we are with the enabling power of the Atonement. It is one thing to know that Jesus Christ came to earth to die for us. That is fundamental and foundational to the doctrine of Christ. But we also need to appreciate that the Lord desires, through His Atonement and by the power of the Holy Ghost, to live in us—not only to direct us but also to empower us. I think most of us know that when we do things wrong, when we need help to overcome the effects of sin in our lives, the Savior has paid the price and made it possible for us to be made clean through His redeeming power. Most of us clearly understand that the Atonement is for sinners. I am not so sure, however, that we know and understand that the Atonement is also for saints—for good men and women who are obedient and worthy and conscientious and who are striving to become better and serve more faithfully. I frankly do not think many of us “get it” concerning this enabling and strengthening aspect of the Atonement, and I wonder if we mistakenly believe we must make the journey from good to better and become a saint all by ourselves through sheer grit, willpower, and discipline, and with our obviously limited capacities.

Brothers and sisters, the gospel of the Savior is not simply about avoiding bad in our lives; it also is essentially about doing and becoming good. And the Atonement provides help for us to overcome and avoid bad and to do and become good. There is help from the Savior for the entire journey of life—from bad to good to better and to change our very nature.

I am not trying to suggest that the redeeming and enabling powers of the Atonement are separate and discrete. Rather, these two dimensions of the Atonement are connected and complementary; they both need to be operational during all phases of the journey of life. And it is eternally important for all of us to recognize that both of these essential elements of the journey of life—both putting off the natural man and becoming a saint, both overcoming bad and becoming good—are accomplished through the power of the Atonement. Individual willpower, personal determination and motivation, and effective planning and goal setting are necessary but ultimately insufficient to triumphantly complete this mortal journey. Truly we must come to rely upon “the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah” (2 Nephi 2:8).

I was thinking that he is probably right that we often think we need to do it on our own, but more I think that most feel they need to get past the redeeming part before they get to the empowering part. People just think they will never get past the redeeming part in this life so they may not even keep the empowering part in mind - I'm finding it again and again the scriptures and talks.  Places I had read several times, but didn't pick up.  

[snowflake]

53 minutes ago, Rain said:

I have been preparing to give a talk on the enabling power of the atonement.  I read something this past week that really stuck out to me, but I cannot find it now.  It may have been a BYU speech, but I just am not finding it. He said something about living a sinless life enabled Jesus to atone for us.  Now I can find LOTS of things similar and lots of things that give the same idea.  I just able not finding success in finding the sentence that because he lived without sin it "enabled" him to atone.

In other words all in one sentence: sinless enabled atonement. 

My next thinking, after reading it initially,  was that it matches: atonement enables us to be free from sin. 

Any chance someone is familiar with that specific passage? 

 

Mark 2: 5-10  When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.

⁶ But there was certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts,

⁷ Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

⁸ And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?

⁹ Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?

¹⁰ But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)

 

According to the Bible, Jesus is God in the flesh, His name is Emmanuel (which means God with us). Jesus can forgive sin because he is God. The scribes accused him of blasphemy because of this. Hope this helps!

[probablyHagoth7]

I would suggest starting with the unblemished lamb required for the Passover to remind them of Israel being saved from the destroying angel in times past. Ex. 12:21–28; 13:14–15

Might comment with a few NT and BofM passages in a bit.

Edited March 24, 2017 by probablyHagoth7

[Rain]

I appreciate the scriptures, but I know it was in a talk, not a scripture.  It specifically used some for of the word "enable".  

Edited March 26, 2017 by Rain

[smac97]

43 minutes ago, Rain said:

I have been preparing to give a talk on the enabling power of the atonement.  I read something this past week that really stuck out to me, but I cannot find it now.  It may have been a BYU speech, but I just am not finding it. He said something about living a sinless life enabled Jesus to atone for us.  Now I can find LOTS of things similar and lots of things that give the same idea.  I just able not finding success in finding the sentence that because he lived without sin it "enabled" him to atone.

In other words all in one sentence: sinless enabled atonement. 

My next thinking, after reading it initially,  was that it matches: atonement enables us to be free from sin. 

Any chance someone is familiar with that specific passage? 

 

The JST of Hebrews 7:25-26 may be helpful:

Quote

JST, Hebrews 7:25–26. Compare Hebrews 7:26–27

Jesus offers Himself as a sinless sacrifice for our sins.

25 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made ruler over the heavens;

26 And not as those high priests who offered up sacrifice daily, first for their own sins, and then for the sins of the people; for he needeth not offer sacrifice for his own sins, for he knew no sins; but for the sins of the people. And this he did once, when he offered up himself.

Thanks,

-Smac

 

[rongo]

39 minutes ago, Rain said:

rongo - I'll check through it, but I don't think so.  It's interesting to me that it is still the top viewed talk at BYU speeches.  

It's an outstanding talk. 

[clarkgoble]

Closest is probably the JST for Hebrews 7:25–26. 

For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made ruler over the heavens; and not as those high priests who offered up sacrifice daily, first for their own sins, and then for the sins of the people; for he needeth not offer sacrifice for his own sins, for he knew no sins; but for the sins of the people. And this he did once, when he offered up himself.

Even it doesn't say that Christ could atone because he was sinless. Rather it's just noting the symbolism of the Mosaic sacrifices.

Typically the Book of Mormon understanding is that it's a sacrifice only God could make but it's due to the deeper nature of being God that enables it of which being sinless is just a part. Exactly what the atonement has to do depends upon what the problem it's trying to solve is. And the scriptures take different views on that. The view of Alma is wrapped up with the law of Moses that gets missed. There's a punishment affixed to breaking the law, but that's in terms of the law of Moses which includes sin offerings as the punishment. So it's not the way it's usually taught in Church which is usually done as a way of escaping punishment by someone else suffering it. For Alma the punishment is the reconciliation and Christ does that because he's God. The sinless part is more the idea of law of Moses that the sacrifice be pure and so forth. So the symbolism of Christ being sinless is necessary for that aspect of the law of Moses. But from our cultural perspective that seems like an irrelevant trapping even though it seems key to Alma.

So the sinless part is due to the symbolism of the old testament but usually isn't brought up as necessary for the atonement.

There is a two covenant theory that requires Jesus to fulfill the first covenant (do everything God says) to enable a second covenant (come to Jesus). Chauncy Riddle is the best known proponent of that theology. A few GAs adopted elements of it but I don't think it's ever been fully embraced due to the key problem of figuring out how Christ being perfect meant he could bring us to him.

Edited March 24, 2017 by clarkgoble

[probablyHagoth7]

43 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

...due to the key problem of figuring out how Christ being perfect meant he could bring us to him.

I suspect it could have something to do with a principle surrounding the ancient tradition of granting extensive rewards to the one who first scaled the walls of a besieged city. And/or the victor of a race.

For example:

Here.

And here.

And even here, when describing Stephen, the first Christian martyr.

This approach to the retelling of Christ's story is along such lines....which approaches his life and ministry as the superlative victory of a heroic champion to be followed and emulated...rather than a Greek tragedy.

 

Edited March 24, 2017 by probablyHagoth7

[clarkgoble]

I should note the one explanation that Riddle touches upon in that paper is the idea that Jesus is perfect and so he knows how to make us like him. Thus the atonement proper is a slow transformation as we allow him to change us. (The resurrection being a key part) The sinless part is just that you can only change someone into something that is possible. So it's not that the sinlessness has a causal role but that Christ being sinless gives him knowledge of how to transform us. A subtle but important distinction.

[mfbukowski]

10 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

I should note the one explanation that Riddle touches upon in that paper is the idea that Jesus is perfect and so he knows how to make us like him. Thus the atonement proper is a slow transformation as we allow him to change us. (The resurrection being a key part) The sinless part is just that you can only change someone into something that is possible. So it's not that the sinlessness has a causal role but that Christ being sinless gives him knowledge of how to transform us. A subtle but important distinction.

And an important one

I see his perfection in empathy as perhaps his most important attribute.  The belief that he can understand and empathize with any problem is the pragmatic key to faith in the atonement, as I see it.  I think it is that belief that gives us the sense of forgiveness we get from the belief in the atonement 

And of course none of that works without a belief in his sinlessness 

I think that if one has perfect empathy, one knows how much sin hurts the other person, especially if that other Person is God.  It also makes one unable to harm another since one can perfectly feel their pain for what we have done against them

Edited March 24, 2017 by mfbukowski

[clarkgoble]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

And an important one

I see his perfection in empathy as perhaps his most important attribute.  The belief that he can understand and empathize with any problem is the pragmatic key to faith in the atonement, as I see it.  I think it is that belief that gives us the sense of forgiveness we get from the belief in the atonement 

This is also I think why Mormonism, especially 20th century Mormonism, tended to emphasize the intercessory prayer over the cross. The idea was that it was in that prayer that Christ achieves complete empathetic knowledge of each of us. Not just knowing what we experienced but feeling it. Now I'm not sure sure of the history for that. There's a whole lot of theology developed there out of pretty vague scriptures. But still the idea behind it seems true that Christ acting as God is able to save us because he has that experiential knowledge of what we suffer. This in turn allows us to be free to make a free choice of what we ultimately want to be.

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

This is also I think why Mormonism, especially 20th century Mormonism, tended to emphasize the intercessory prayer over the cross. The idea was that it was in that prayer that Christ achieves complete empathetic knowledge of each of us. Not just knowing what we experienced but feeling it. Now I'm not sure sure of the history for that. There's a whole lot of theology developed there out of pretty vague scriptures. But still the idea behind it seems true that Christ acting as God is able to save us because he has that experiential knowledge of what we suffer. This in turn allows us to be free to make a free choice of what we ultimately want to be.

Agree completely!

And for me, since we have an open canon, scriptural history is not as important as it might be for others.  For me the bottom line is hermeneutics. Scripture of course can be seen in multiple ways; the question of evolution is a good example, or for that matter the Copernican revolution.

The scriptures have not changed, yet virtually no one today would argue that they should be interpreted to imply that the sun revolves around earth.  Fewer and fewer Mormons today would support a young earth or that evolution conflicts with scripture, I think, though we do tend to be very conservative on those points.

[bluebell]

Rain you should look in the youth manual. March's topic is the Atonement and each lesson gives talk references. Maybe you'll find what you are looking for there. 

Edited March 25, 2017 by bluebell

[Maidservant]

Possibly Alma 34 beginning with verse 8?