Birth of Christ

[theplains]

The LDS Church seems to continue to propagate its teaching that Jesus was born to Mary and 
Heavenly Father in a literal sense, according to natural law (even using the term Celestial 
Sireship).  This is from the 2015/2016 "Jesus Christ and the Everlasting Gospel Teacher'sManual",
chapter 7.

Would this mean Mary was not really a virgin when Jesus was born in the manger?  Or does the 
LDS Church still consider Mary a virgin because a mortal virgin cannot lose her virginity if 
she has physical relations with an immortal glorified man of flesh and bones?

In the Book of Mormon, Nephi says of Mary "A virgin, most beautiful and fair above all other 
virgins ... And I looked and beheld the virgin again, bearing a child in her arms."

Luke 1:28 says, "And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, 
the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women."

In what ways do you consider that Mary was highly favoured?  Was it because of Nephi's view
of her outward appearance?

Thanks,
Jim

[JAHS]

Who said she had physical relations with an immortal glorified man? I am sure God was quite capable of placing His seed in Mary's womb without physical relations as we know it. 
Mary was still considered a virgin afterwards, since virginity is a concept confined to earthly human beings and can only be violated by an earthly man. 
Elder James E. Talmage, a past authority of the LDS Church, has written: 
"That Child … born of Mary was begotten of Elohim, the Eternal Father, not in violation of natural law but in accordance with a higher manifestation thereof; and the offspring from that association of supreme sanctity, celestial Sireship, and pure though mortal maternity, was of right to be called the 'Son of the Highest'".(Talmage, Jesus the Christ)

 

[Glenn101]

I don't really care to speculate. It is enough for me to know that Jesus is the Only Begotten of the Father in the flesh. Exactly how it was accomplished is a mystery and one I do not need to know the details of at this point or maybe ever to attain my exaltation.

Glenn

[carbon dioxide]

2 hours ago, theplains said:

The LDS Church seems to continue to propagate its teaching that Jesus was born to Mary and 
Heavenly Father in a literal sense, according to natural law (even using the term Celestial 
Sireship).  This is from the 2015/2016 "Jesus Christ and the Everlasting Gospel Teacher'sManual",
chapter 7.

Would this mean Mary was not really a virgin when Jesus was born in the manger?  Or does the 
LDS Church still consider Mary a virgin because a mortal virgin cannot lose her virginity if 
she has physical relations with an immortal glorified man of flesh and bones?

In the Book of Mormon, Nephi says of Mary "A virgin, most beautiful and fair above all other 
virgins ... And I looked and beheld the virgin again, bearing a child in her arms."

Luke 1:28 says, "And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, 
the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women."

In what ways do you consider that Mary was highly favoured?  Was it because of Nephi's view
of her outward appearance?

Thanks,
Jim

What does sex have to do with birth?  Jesus has to have had a father of some sort.  Where did he get his Y chromosome from?  Modern medicine as the capacity to make any virgin pregnant today.  I would think that God also knows a few additional ways to accomplish this task.  You really think your local fertility doctor can make a virgin pregnant but God does not have the ability to do this?

[Calm]

Banned topics:

"• Sexually themed threads or discussions of sexual behavior of LDS leaders, past or present"

see guidelines

[JulieM]

Well, Brigham Young taught that God had physical relations with Mary to impregnate  her.

And, I'm sure Calm will be locking this thread in 3...2...1...

Edited December 25, 2016 by JulieM

[Calm]

I am not a mod and cannot lock threads or this would have already been locked hours ago when .i first saw it.  Nor would I post guidelines in hope that the poster will agree to abide on them on their own so we don't have to wait for a mod to show up.I really wish people would stop spreading the rumor of me being a mod around.  It got old after the first five years of it.

I would have thought the length of time it can take mods to respond would have ruled me out as a mod eons ago considering how much time I spend on here, usually checking in multiple times every day.

Edited December 25, 2016 by Calm

[longview]

2 hours ago, JulieM said:

Well, Brigham Young taught that God had physical relations with Mary to impregnate  her.

And, I'm sure Calm will be locking this thread in 3...2...1...

You have misinterpreted BY's words.  He was referring to the Holy Ghost.  The HG was only an intermediary between God the Father and Mary.  BY was arguing about how the HG "conveyed" the DNA of HF through the stomach of Mary without having to engage in the "sex act."  We know this is possible because after the resurrection, Jesus "passed" through the wall (without breaking or breaching the wall) to visit with His Apostles.  BY made his point clear when he joked about the HG falling on people (and women do NOT get pregnant as a result).

[Robert F. Smith]

8 hours ago, theplains said:

.................................................................   

In the Book of Mormon, Nephi says of Mary "A virgin, most beautiful and fair above all other 
virgins ... And I looked and beheld the virgin again, bearing a child in her arms."

Luke 1:28 says, "And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, 
the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women."

In what ways do you consider that Mary was highly favoured?  Was it because of Nephi's view
of her outward appearance?

Thanks,
Jim

Rather than claim to understand the arcane mysteries of God and the nature of the conception of Jesus as the Holy Ghost came upon Mary, and the power of the Highest overshadowed her (Luke 1:35), we ought simply to note that she was highly favored because of her purity of spirit and because she became the literal Mother of God (theotokos).  Man does indeed look on the outward appearance (which you do here), while God looks on the heart.

The heretical notions of Original Sin, Immaculate Conception, Permanent Virginity, and the Assumption of Mary at her life's end are non-biblical constructs.

[JulieM]

3 hours ago, longview said:

You have misinterpreted BY's words.  He was referring to the Holy Ghost.  

Nope.  You must not have really studied what Brigham Young stated.  That might be what you wish he'd said, but it's absolutely not what he (and other leaders) stated about how Christ was conceived.  Complete wishful thinking on your part.  Do you also believe he never stated that Adam was our God and the Father of Christ?

These statements disagree with you:

• Brigham Young (Mormonism's 2nd president-prophet): “Now Remember from this time forth, and forever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. … When the Virgin Mary conceived the Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost… What a learned idea' Jesus, our elder brother was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in heaven.”  [Journal of Discourses, vol. 1:8]
• Joseph Fielding Smith (Mormonism's 10th president-prophet): “CHRIST NOT BEGOTTEN OF THE HOLY GHOST … Christ was begotten of God. He was not born without the aid of Man, and that Man was God! ... They tell us the Book of Mormon states that Jesus was begotten of the Holy Ghost. I challenge that statement.”  [Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1:18]
• Ezra Taft Benson (Mormonism's 13th presiden-prophet): “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints proclaims that Jesus Christ is the Son of God in the most literal sense. The body in which He performed His mission in the flesh was sired by that same Holy Being we worship as God, our Eternal Father. Jesus was not the son of Joseph, nor was He begotten by the Holy Ghost”  [The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, 7.]

Edited December 25, 2016 by JulieM

[thesometimesaint]

10 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Rather than claim to understand the arcane mysteries of God and the nature of the conception of Jesus as the Holy Ghost came upon Mary, and the power of the Highest overshadowed her (Luke 1:35), we ought simply to note that she was highly favored because of her purity of spirit and because she became the literal Mother of God (theotokos).  Man does indeed look on the outward appearance (which you do here), while God looks on the heart.

The heretical notions of Original Sin, Immaculate Conception, Permanent Virginity, and the Assumption of Mary at her life's end are non-biblical constructs.

Agreed.

[webbles]

12 hours ago, JulieM said:

Nope.  You must not have really studied what Brigham Young stated.  That might be what you wish he'd said, but it's absolutely not what he (and other leaders) stated about how Christ was conceived.  Complete wishful thinking on your part.  Do you also believe he never stated that Adam was our God and the Father of Christ?

These statements disagree with you:

• Brigham Young (Mormonism's 2nd president-prophet): “Now Remember from this time forth, and forever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. … When the Virgin Mary conceived the Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost… What a learned idea' Jesus, our elder brother was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in heaven.”  [Journal of Discourses, vol. 1:8]
• Joseph Fielding Smith (Mormonism's 10th president-prophet): “CHRIST NOT BEGOTTEN OF THE HOLY GHOST … Christ was begotten of God. He was not born without the aid of Man, and that Man was God! ... They tell us the Book of Mormon states that Jesus was begotten of the Holy Ghost. I challenge that statement.”  [Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1:18]
• Ezra Taft Benson (Mormonism's 13th presiden-prophet): “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints proclaims that Jesus Christ is the Son of God in the most literal sense. The body in which He performed His mission in the flesh was sired by that same Holy Being we worship as God, our Eternal Father. Jesus was not the son of Joseph, nor was He begotten by the Holy Ghost”  [The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, 7.]

None of those actually state that God had physical relations with Mary.  They just state that God, and not the Holy Ghost, is Christ's father.  So I think we can agree that Christ is literally God's son in the flesh.  But that could easily be handled through processes similar to IVF without requiring physical relations.

[CV75]

22 hours ago, theplains said:

The LDS Church seems to continue to propagate its teaching that Jesus was born to Mary and 
Heavenly Father in a literal sense, according to natural law (even using the term Celestial 
Sireship).  This is from the 2015/2016 "Jesus Christ and the Everlasting Gospel Teacher'sManual",
chapter 7.

Would this mean Mary was not really a virgin when Jesus was born in the manger?  Or does the 
LDS Church still consider Mary a virgin because a mortal virgin cannot lose her virginity if 
she has physical relations with an immortal glorified man of flesh and bones?

In the Book of Mormon, Nephi says of Mary "A virgin, most beautiful and fair above all other 
virgins ... And I looked and beheld the virgin again, bearing a child in her arms."

Luke 1:28 says, "And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, 
the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women."

In what ways do you consider that Mary was highly favoured?  Was it because of Nephi's view
of her outward appearance?

Thanks,
Jim

Let’s not overlook that the same link explains that Lord’s birth was the result of a process that was “not in violation of natural law but in accordance with a higher manifestation thereof.” How do you think an appreciation for that concept changes your questions, or how you would go about examining what we think of your own mother’s status in her experience with you?

Also, 1 Nephi 11:20 only means that the same person in verse 15 has had a baby. It’s like me saying my 5-year old granddaughter is the mother of my great-grandchild and I envision her bearing a child in her arms.

Now cut it out!

13 hours ago, JulieM said:

Nope.  You must not have really studied what Brigham Young stated.  That might be what you wish he'd said, but it's absolutely not what he (and other leaders) stated about how Christ was conceived.  Complete wishful thinking on your part.  Do you also believe he never stated that Adam was our God and the Father of Christ?

These statements disagree with you:

All these are examples of a process that was “not in violation of natural law but in accordance with a higher manifestation thereof.”

 

Edited December 25, 2016 by CV75

[longview]

13 hours ago, JulieM said:

Nope.  You must not have really studied what Brigham Young stated.  That might be what you wish he'd said, but it's absolutely not what he (and other leaders) stated about how Christ was conceived.  Complete wishful thinking on your part.  Do you also believe he never stated that Adam was our God and the Father of Christ?

These statements disagree with you:

• Brigham Young (Mormonism's 2nd president-prophet): “Now Remember from this time forth, and forever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. … When the Virgin Mary conceived the Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost… What a learned idea' Jesus, our elder brother was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in heaven.”  [Journal of Discourses, vol. 1:8]
• Joseph Fielding Smith (Mormonism's 10th president-prophet): “CHRIST NOT BEGOTTEN OF THE HOLY GHOST … Christ was begotten of God. He was not born without the aid of Man, and that Man was God! ... They tell us the Book of Mormon states that Jesus was begotten of the Holy Ghost. I challenge that statement.”  [Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1:18]
• Ezra Taft Benson (Mormonism's 13th presiden-prophet): “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints proclaims that Jesus Christ is the Son of God in the most literal sense. The body in which He performed His mission in the flesh was sired by that same Holy Being we worship as God, our Eternal Father. Jesus was not the son of Joseph, nor was He begotten by the Holy Ghost”  [The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, 7.]

You are reading between the lines (as we all are most frequently having to do).  I agree with all three statements above.  However we can pick out a number of statements by BY that are most disconcerting.  A number of them appear to be self contradictory.  We have to wonder if BY's definitions are different from ours (as well as Orson Pratt's, who famously disputed BY's "theories").  I still stand by my statement that the Holy Ghost "conveyed" the DNA of HF to Mary's egg without use of the earthly sex act.  In this way Jesus gained the attributes of BOTH HF and Mary.  Jesus looked exactly like HF.

[Tacenda]

It's in my estimation or opinion why there is a lot of abuse such as incest in our church that has been passed down. I wish the church would denounce Brigham Young's statements on this.

[readstoomuch]

We believe that God the Father has a body as tangible as man's, but glorified.  Jesus has a body like that now also.  How that happened we don't know.  Past prophets or perhaps when the last two were apostles, made statements.  Who knows how accurate Brigham Young's statements are after recent studies about the accuracy of the Journal of Discourses.  Neither I nor my Church is held responsible for every word these men (or women leaders for that matter) said.  I feel more strict about what I consider canon.  I think if all of those leaders were to sit down in a room, they would all come to an agreement about what they would say.   That might be that they don't know for sure.

Tacenda, what the heck?  I don't see anything in your post that has anything to do with this thread.  We have no more problems with incest than any other group of people, but sure we have them.  It's Christmas, isn't that the most important thing?

Praise God that Jesus was born and resurrected!  Merry Christmas to all and may we all remember that and ponder it in our hearts as Mary did and not get caught up in pontificating about mysteries.  I am just glad it happened any way that it took place.  

[JLHPROF]

20 hours ago, Calm said:

Banned topics:

"• Sexually themed threads or discussions of sexual behavior of LDS leaders, past or present"

see guidelines

That's funny!

[JLHPROF]

20 hours ago, JulieM said:

Well, Brigham Young taught that God had physical relations with Mary to impregnate  her.

I agree with him.
However, she wasn't fully mortal at the time (being caught away in the spirit aka transfigured or translated in some way) and obviously neither was he.
So Christ wasn't conceived by fully mortal parents, even if he was born to one.
 

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

It's in my estimation or opinion why there is a lot of abuse such as incest in our church that has been passed down. I wish the church would denounce Brigham Young's statements on this.

Huh?  What nonsense.

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Huh?  What nonsense.

I should have distinguished the two, my bad. It's in some polygamist groups. But I've seen it elsewhere. I'm sorry, I really should delete it, but I hate secrets. But it's a truth, and I'm sure in many faiths too. http://www.mormonstories.org/294-childhood-sexual-abuse-with-dr-barbara-morrell/

Not sure how true this quote is on the web:  "In what Apostle Wilford Woodruff described at the time (1854) as “the greatest sermon that ever was delivered to the Latter Day Saints since they have been a people,” Brigham Young announced: “I believe in Sisters marrying brothers, and brothers having their sisters for Wives.”In our marriage relations here we are marrying our brothers, and our sisters." 

Edited December 26, 2016 by Tacenda

[3DOP]

16 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Rather than claim to understand the arcane mysteries of God and the nature of the conception of Jesus as the Holy Ghost came upon Mary, and the power of the Highest overshadowed her (Luke 1:35), we ought simply to note that she was highly favored because of her purity of spirit and because she became the literal Mother of God (theotokos).  Man does indeed look on the outward appearance (which you do here), while God looks on the heart.

The heretical notions of Original Sin, Immaculate Conception, Permanent Virginity, and the Assumption of Mary at her life's end are non-biblical constructs.

Presumaby, the plains would not wish to defend any of the doctrines which you label as heresy, except perhaps original sin. But you guys believe in the Immaculate Conceptions of not just God's Mother, but everybody. You don't believe Mary was conceived in original sin, do you? Company just arrived. Maybe more later...

Rory, Merry Xmas

[cdowis]

del

Edited December 25, 2016 by cdowis

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Not sure how true this quote is on the web:  "In what Apostle Wilford Woodruff described at the time (1854) as “the greatest sermon that ever was delivered to the Latter Day Saints since they have been a people,” Brigham Young announced: “I believe in Sisters marrying brothers, and brothers having their sisters for Wives.”n our marriage relations here we are marrying our brothers, and our sisters." 

Which you know full well refers to the fact that we are all spirit brothers and sisters as evidenced by the part in bold and the lack of historical sibling marriages among the saints in his day.

As for whether there is anything wrong with it - personally I consider it to be a sin directly connected with our mortal condition.  Were we in a more perfect and pure condition I fail to see where the sin would lie if genetics weren't an issue.  Perhaps you can identify a sin that would occur in such an arrangement if there were no mortal  genetic problems connected?
Personally, I think it's brilliant that because of the genetic problems God/mortal nature almost always provides a repulsion at the idea of being with a close relative.
Regardless of the method used (whether you consider the conception to occur spiritually or in the traditional manner) the mother of God's son was still his spirit daughter.  Making Mary both the mother and sister of Christ.

Edited December 26, 2016 by JLHPROF

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

Which you know full well refers to the fact that we are all spirit brothers and sisters as evidenced by the part in bold and the lack of historical sibling marriages among the saints in his day.

As for whether there is anything wrong with it - personally I consider it to be a sin directly connected with our mortal condition.  Were we in a more perfect and pure condition I fail to see where the sin would lie if genetics weren't an issue.  Perhaps you can identify a sin that would occur in such an arrangement if there were no mortal  genetic problems connected?
Personally, I think it's brilliant that because of the genetic problems God/mortal nature almost always provides a repulsion at the idea of being with a close relative.
Regardless of the method used (whether you consider the conception to occur spiritually or in the traditional manner) the mother of God's son was still his spirit daughter.  Making Mary both the mother and sister of Christ.

I didn't know full well, I'm quite ashamed that I read it like that. Boy do I need a grown up pill.

[mfbukowski]

On 12/24/2016 at 0:35 PM, theplains said:

The LDS Church seems to continue to propagate its teaching that Jesus was born to Mary and 
Heavenly Father in a literal sense, according to natural law (even using the term Celestial 
Sireship).  This is from the 2015/2016 "Jesus Christ and the Everlasting Gospel Teacher'sManual",
chapter 7.

Would this mean Mary was not really a virgin when Jesus was born in the manger?  Or does the 
LDS Church still consider Mary a virgin because a mortal virgin cannot lose her virginity if 
she has physical relations with an immortal glorified man of flesh and bones?

In the Book of Mormon, Nephi says of Mary "A virgin, most beautiful and fair above all other 
virgins ... And I looked and beheld the virgin again, bearing a child in her arms."

Luke 1:28 says, "And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, 
the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women."

In what ways do you consider that Mary was highly favoured?  Was it because of Nephi's view
of her outward appearance?

Thanks,
Jim

This is of course the most base way of possibly interpreting the miracle of the condescension of Christ.  Typical of some posters to see it this way.

I won't discuss it- I just wanted to register my disgust at the topic.