Change in the doctrine of homosexuality

[ksfisher]

Just now, Jeanne said:

And I am sure Calm knew exactly what I meant. 

The hyperbole police got you!

[Jeanne]

2 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

The hyperbole police got you!

yep...what would we do without the policing on this board...

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I am not arguing for or against the term in how it is being used in these quotes.  Just exploring by looking at others's efforts of charting how much the conversation has and has not changed over the years in various measures.

However, there are some attributes that are neither sinless or sinful; it is how we respond to them that matters.  I am not sure we should use the word "cure" with them.  For example, I am an natural introvert who is extremely shy.  I don't want or need to be cured of that personality attribute.  I do need to learn how to control it so that I do not create obstacles for myself in personal growth and eternal progression or make life harder for others because I avoid stuff that makes me anxious.  That part of me that has developed through my efforts to shape the behaviours that result from this attribute into more positive avenues is as much the 'real' me as what I started out with (or remember starting out with, the shyness aspectattribute might have been triggered by something before my memories began, I definitely remember several things in my childhood that helped cement it into my dominant way of approaching the world until my early 20s; introversion/extraversion appears to have a large physical aspect).

I think it would be wise to avoid the word "cure" in conversations about personal attributes as it has way too much baggage and may not be what is really meant when God talks about forsaking the natural man or whatever the language is.

Yes, I should have put quotation marks around it...

1 hour ago, JulieM said:

Did AL claim that "doctrines have changed"?

Yes, a few pages ago when he didn't wanna quibble with me about what "doctrine" meant, even though I didn't bring it up.

[JulieM]

44 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Yes, a few pages ago when he didn't wanna quibble with me about what "doctrine" meant, even though I didn't bring it up.

Please supply a quote (I haven't seen where he stated that doctrine has changed or that anyone else has stated that either here ).  Just that different teachings have changed.

Edited November 5, 2016 by JulieM

[ksfisher]

1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

yep...what would we do without the policing on this board...

Hyperbolies (is that how your make it plural?) would run wild!!!

[ALarson]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

Yes, a few pages ago when he didn't wanna quibble with me about what "doctrine" meant, even though I didn't bring it up.

CFR that I stated that church doctrine has changed on this topic.  Exact quote with me stating this please. 

 

ETA:

Is this the post you are referring to (my response to you bringing up doctrine)?  

I stated:

Quote

 

I gave quotes in another post above.  There has been a change in the teachings over the years on this topic as shown there.

And, let's not turn this into a discussion regarding what is church doctrine or what isn't as that's been done ad nauseam on other threads.  The teachings spoken by church leaders have changed over the years on the subject of homosexuality, read the quotes I posted.

 

I was stressing that the TEACHINGS have changed, not the DOCTRINE (read again what I wrote above).  And you use that as a reference for me stating that the doctrine has changed?

And you state that my above response "quibbled" about doctrine "even though" you "didn't bring it up"?  Another lie from you.  Here is your post I replied to:

Quote

Again, gimmie specifics. Show me what you consider to be the most compelling example (or two or three) of a change in doctrine

I think you brought up doctrine!  This is why it's impossible to have an honest discussion with you.  You are dishonest in your representations and statements.  I will no longer respond to you here.

Edited November 5, 2016 by ALarson

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I don't think it ever was published by the Distrubution Center. It was either Deseret Book or Bookcraft (I don't recall which). Thus it was commercially published. Commercially published books go out of print all the time, I assume for a number of reasons, not the least of which is drop in sales. 

To say the Church ordered the discontinuance of this book is assuming facts not in evidence. 

Of course, given your background as a bookseller, I'm sure I'm not saying anything about commercial publishing you don't already know. 

it is my background as ward librarian I am using.  The Church used to offer the book through the Distribution Center and it was meant to have copies in the ward library.  I meant distributed (in the sense of how the wards get materials from the Church), not published.  Miracle of Forgiveness and the Articles of Faith were, iirc, the last books offered that way.  Starting in the 90s, I believe, the ward librarian instructions were that we were not to be carrying books any more as many wards had done for decades.  My Canadian ward had just a few given they poorly designed it with a very small room for storage purposes, but our stake had a room the size of a primary classroom full of books. My Utah ward is one of the oldest in the area and had the glassed in cabinets in the hallways where some books were still stored when I was called (volunteered actually).  I came home with a fewearly 1900's texts just for fun, I got rid of the rest over a year or two by putting them out on a table.  Only three I kept were one dictionary, and two copies each of MoF and AoF iirc, as directed by the Church Handbook (not the number, just what books we were to offer and I mean the instructions were for the last two, I don't think the dictionary was supposed to be there, but I like to look up words and at the time didn't have a phone or a good connection).

A few years ago they took Aof and MoF out of the online lds.org catalogue for purchase. (they had stopped publishing a hard copy catalogue by then or I could check to be sure). Iirc, at the same time, they discontinued offering it online through DB.  I remember a thread about it, but I may have had a discussion elsewhere.  According to the instructions I remember, this means they were no longer approved materials for the ward library.

I am not drawing any conclusions from the action of removing them from the online store, just stating what happened.  Most ward libraries of wards older than a decade probably still have it on their shelf given how most ward libraries hang on to stuff.  I highly doubt the Church sent out a bulletin requiring they be removed.

"Any items that are not included in the Meetinghouse Library Materials or that are not available in Church distribution centers should be discarded."

https://www.lds.org/callings/sunday-school/leader-resources/adding-and-discarding-materials?lang=eng

 

Edited November 5, 2016 by Calm

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Jeanne said:

And I am sure Calm knew exactly what I meant. But yeah...I get your drift.

No, actually I don't.  It is extremely hard to know where to place such comments.

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Boys sometimes experiment sexually, including with one another. They sometimes talk openly and joke about masturbation along with other aspects of sex.  It is naive to assume this never happens.

This was something that was discussed in my clinical psychology courses, but unfortunately a short google search didn't come up with any specific rates and I am just not in the mood to wade through it more, ate too much at the restaurant.  I hardly ever go out to eat anymore (we are thinking it was our first date in a year or more, between my, my mom and my daughter's health isdues), it was more the two glasses of horchata that got to me.  Should have just stuck with water, so thirsty.  Too many carbs....

[Calm]

6 hours ago, JulieM said:

How often does that even happen?  I'm sure it's rare.

Maybe an older man abusing a child, but boys together?  They're usually mortified at the thought of anyone knowing they've done this in private let alone doing it with a friend! Especially active church boys.

1/3 of all sexual abuse is committed by those under 18 years of age:

http://www.ncsby.org/content/understanding-adolescents-illegal-sexual-behavior

(not saying all or most same sex experimentation is abuse or actual homosexual attraction, just documenting that sexual abuse by teens is not uncommon)

[JulieM]

43 minutes ago, Calm said:

1/3 of all sexual abuse is committed by those under 18 years of age:

http://www.ncsby.org/content/understanding-adolescents-illegal-sexual-behavior

(not saying all or most same sex experimentation is abuse or actual homosexual attraction, just documenting that sexual abuse by teens is not uncommon)

Oh, I agree that sexual abuse takes place (to young boys and young girls that the 1/3 from your link includes too).  Some same sex child abuse and some not.  I don't believe that is what Pres. Kimball was referring to though (although I'm sure some abuse may be involved, it's not the only thing he was speaking of, IMO) when he stated:

"Youth come into contact early with masturbation. Many would-be authorities declare that it is natural and acceptable, and frequently young men I interview cite these advocates to justify their practice of it. To this we must respond that the world's norms in many areas—drinking, smoking, and sex experience generally, to mention only a few—depart increasingly from God's law. The Church has a different, higher norm.

Thus prophets anciently and today condemn masturbation. It induces feelings of guilt and shame. It is detrimental to spirituality. It indicates slavery to the flesh, not that mastery of it and the growth toward godhood which is the object of our mortal life. Our modern prophet has indicated that no young man should be called on a mission who is not free from this practice.

While we should not regard this weakness as the heinous sin which some other sexual practices are, it is of itself bad enough to require sincere repentance. What is more, it too often leads to grievous sin, even to that sin against nature, homosexuality. For, done in private, it evolves often into mutual masturbation—practiced with another person of the same sex and thence into total homosexuality."

 

 

Edited November 5, 2016 by JulieM

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

it is my background as ward librarian I am using.  The Church used to offer the book through the Distribution Center and it was meant to have copies in the ward library.  I meant distributed (in the sense of how the wards get materials from the Church), not published.  Miracle of Forgiveness and the Articles of Faith were, iirc, the last books offered that way.  Starting in the 90s, I believe, the ward librarian instructions were that we were not to be carrying books any more as many wards had done for decades.  My Canadian ward had just a few given they poorly designed it with a very small room for storage purposes, but our stake had a room the size of a primary classroom full of books. My Utah ward is one of the oldest in the area and had the glassed in cabinets in the hallways where some books were still stored when I was called (volunteered actually).  I came home with a fewearly 1900's texts just for fun, I got rid of the rest over a year or two by putting them out on a table.  Only three I kept were one dictionary, and two copies each of MoF and AoF iirc, as directed by the Church Handbook (not the number, just what books we were to offer and I mean the instructions were for the last two, I don't think the dictionary was supposed to be there, but I like to look up words and at the time didn't have a phone or a good connection).

A few years ago they took Aof and MoF out of the online lds.org catalogue for purchase. (they had stopped publishing a hard copy catalogue by then or I could check to be sure). Iirc, at the same time, they discontinued offering it online through DB.  I remember a thread about it, but I may have had a discussion elsewhere.  According to the instructions I remember, this means they were no longer approved materials for the ward library.

I am not drawing any conclusions from the action of removing them from the online store, just stating what happened.  Most ward libraries of wards older than a decade probably still have it on their shelf given how most ward libraries hang on to stuff.  I highly doubt the Church sent out a bulletin requiring they be removed.

"Any items that are not included in the Meetinghouse Library Materials or that are not available in Church distribution centers should be discarded."

https://www.lds.org/callings/sunday-school/leader-resources/adding-and-discarding-materials?lang=eng

 

Now that you mention it, I do recall seeing copies of the book for sale at Distribution Center stores, although it was published commercially by (I think) Bookcraft.

[Scott Lloyd]

8 hours ago, Jeanne said:

This book was the worst thing that ever happened to young people..ever..IMO.

 

7 hours ago, Calm said:

Seriously, genocide was less damaging than this book?

9/11? The obesity epidemic?  The plague? Parents who physically abuse kids?  Car crashes?  Cyber bullying and stalking?

(I suspect you get my drift)

 

7 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

We could add to the list suicide, terminal illness, loss of parents or other family members, early involvement in crime and incarceration, poverty, homelessness. 

But yes, I'm sure your drift is abundantly clear by now. 

 

6 hours ago, Jeanne said:

And I am sure Calm knew exactly what I meant. But yeah...I get your drift.

 

6 hours ago, ksfisher said:

The hyperbole police got you!

Some remarks go beyond the pale of mere exaggeration for effect (the definition of hyperbole) and enter the realm of sheer zaniness.

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

1/3 of all sexual abuse is committed by those under 18 years of age:

http://www.ncsby.org/content/understanding-adolescents-illegal-sexual-behavior

(not saying all or most same sex experimentation is abuse or actual homosexual attraction, just documenting that sexual abuse by teens is not uncommon)

Sex obsession among pubescent males is so pervasive I'm surprised to see anyone doubting that sex experimentation occasionally occurs between peers, even heterosexual ones,

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

This was something that was discussed in my clinical psychology courses, but unfortunately a short google search didn't come up with any specific rates and I am just not in the mood to wade through it more, ate too much at the restaurant.  I hardly ever go out to eat anymore (we are thinking it was our first date in a year or more, between my, my mom and my daughter's health isdues), it was more the two glasses of horchata that got to me.  Should have just stuck with water, so thirsty.  Too many carbs....

You don't have to have studied it in clinical psychology to know that it goes on. You just have to have been within earshot of locker-room conversation often enough.

 

[JulieM]

5 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

You don't have to have studied it in clinical psychology to know that it goes on. You just have to have been within earshot of locker-room conversation often enough.

 

Well, thank goodness I guess I was sheltered enough to never hear anything like this going on (especially within a group of lds boys!). And I tend to believe that if any teenage boy wanted to experiment sexually with another boy, he already had attraction to the same sex rather than that turning him gay. Heterosexual boys mainly want to experiment sexually with teenage girls.  I don't condone either, don't get me wrong.  I'm just glad no leader now teaches what Pres, Kimball did (at least publicly, maybe some random local leaders still use it or believe it when interviewing youth, but I hope not).  Masterbation certainly doesn't turn a heterosexual into a "total homosexual", and that goes for males and females.

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, JulieM said:

Well, thank goodness I guess I was sheltered enough to never hear anything like this going on (especially within a group of lds boys!). And I tend to believe that if any teenage boy wanted to experiment sexually with another boy, he already had attraction to the same sex rather than that turning him gay. Heterosexual boys mainly want to experiment sexually with teenage girls.  I don't condone either, don't get me wrong.  I'm just glad no leader now teaches what Pres, Kimball did (at least publicly, maybe some random local leaders still use it or believe it when interviewing youth, but I hope not).  Masterbation certainly doesn't turn a heterosexual into a "total homosexual", and that goes for males and females.

As I suggested earlier, it could awaken latent urges in homosexual or bisexual individuals and bring on early involvement in homosexual behavior. Depending on the circumstances, I don't believe it at all unreasonable to warn young people against this sort of thing. Forewarned is forearmed and knowledge is power. 

Some parents, to prevent this sort of thing, don't permit their children to attend or host sleepovers with friends, substituting "late-overs" or other activities instead. 

[JulieM]

8 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

As I suggested earlier, it could awaken latent urges in homosexual or bisexual individuals and bring on early involvement in homosexual behavior. Depending on the circumstances, I don't believe it at all unreasonable to warn young people against this sort of thing. Forewarned is forearmed and knowledge is power. 

Some parents, to prevent this sort of thing, don't permit their children to attend or host sleepovers with friends, substituting "late-overs" or other activities instead. 

Sorry, I won't be convinced that masterbation causes homosexuality.  And if a boy wants to experiment sexually with another boy, I think in most cases he already has sexual attraction for the opposite sex.  Heterosexual boys wouldn't approach one of their guy friends for that, but would be interested in girls at that age.  Maybe it might rarely happen.  Either way our leaders thankfully don't teach that masterbation leads to "total homosexuality" as Pres. kimball taught.

Edited November 5, 2016 by JulieM

[thesometimesaint]

90% of all people masturbate, the other 10% lie. 

[Scott Lloyd]

50 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Sorry, I won't be convinced that masterbation causes homosexuality.  And if a boy wants to experiment sexually with another boy, I think in most cases he already has sexual attraction for the opposite sex.  Heterosexual boys wouldn't approach one of their guy friends for that, but would be interested in girls at that age.  Maybe it might rarely happen.  Either way our leaders thankfully don't teach that masterbation leads to "total homosexuality" as Pres. kimball taught.

"Masturbation causes homosexuality" is not what I said. 

But if you're intent is to joust at straw men of your own making instead of what was said, don't bother responding to my posts. 

Edited to add: 

Some younger boys don't feel comfortable enough around girls to approach them about much of anything, much less sex, but they might be curious enough to engage in experimentation with other boys if the opportunity were present. 

At any rate, I have no doubt that Elder Kimball, through years of interviewing transgressors in his day was aware of it happening frequently enough that he felt it warranted a mention in his book. 

Edited November 5, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[california boy]

27 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

As I suggested earlier, it could awaken latent urges in homosexual or bisexual individuals and bring on early involvement in homosexual behavior. Depending on the circumstances, I don't believe it at all unreasonable to warn young people against this sort of thing. Forewarned is forearmed and knowledge is power. 

Some parents, to prevent this sort of thing, don't permit their children to attend or host sleepovers with friends, substituting "late-overs" or other activities instead. 

Scott Lloyd:  The expert on how someone becomes gay.

[JulieM]

2 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

"Masturbation causes homosexuality" is not what I said. 

But if you're intent is to joust at straw men of your own making instead of what was said, don't bother responding to my posts. 

Not a straw man if you agree with Pres. Kimballs's outdated teachings on this topic.  Maybe I misunderstood.  

[Scott Lloyd]

27 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Not a straw man if you agree with Pres. Kimballs's outdated teachings on this topic.  Maybe I misunderstood.  

Not a matter of misunderstanding so much as refusing to pay attention.

But I'm finished with this conversation.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

Scott Lloyd:  The expert on how someone becomes gay.

Well, I'm probably at least as qualified to talk about it as JulieM is about the sexual behavior of adolescent males.

 

[JulieM]

15 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Well, I'm probably at least as qualified to talk about it as JulieM is about the sexual behavior of adolescent males.

Well, I do have 3 sons (2 are teenagers who are always having groups of their friends over at our house) 

But I've posted here that I admit I must be sheltered or naive because I can't imagine boys suggesting doing what's being discussed here with one of their guy friends unless they already are attracted to the same sex.  Especially active Mormon boys considering the stigma attached to the "m" word and their fear of anyone knowing they've ever done it alone let alone with a friend or friends!

Edited November 5, 2016 by JulieM