Change in the doctrine of homosexuality

[rockpond]

1 minute ago, CV75 said:

Huh? Compare quote(s) teaching A with those teaching B to show which (and that) teachings have changed over time.

Those I've known with a credible POV can lay it all out, with compelling examples, so that others can understand.

Who knows? You already confessed a POV that would speculate such. Show me which teachings from those books warranted their being pulled.

Not everything can be learned through a message board thread.

[CV75]

58 minutes ago, rockpond said:

We're all going off our subjective interpretations, Scott.  I hope that isn't news to you.

Which is why you owe the text on which you base your interpretation to those who ask for it,

[CV75]

2 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Not everything can be learned through a message board thread.

LOL -- of course, but why is it you won't share that which can be learned, from the documentation requested to explain of your POV?

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, rockpond said:

Nope, you had altered what I originally stated.

 

We're all going off our subjective interpretations, Scott.  I hope that isn't news to you.

But you didn't couch it as your subjective interpretation initially, which is why I felt the need to have the record set straight.

[CV75]

13 minutes ago, rockpond said:

I see the change in wording as a change in understanding, which therefore became a change in teachings.

So what are the actual changes, and the the meaningful aspects of these changes in teachings, especially in comparison with your earlier post that they run parallel to lifting the priesthood ban?

No quotes, no explanations, hmmm... how else can we avoid the difficult questions?

[rockpond]

13 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

But you didn't couch it as your subjective interpretation initially, which is why I felt the need to have the record set straight.

Obviously.  Neither of us know... we're both making our best interpretations.

[rockpond]

22 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Which is why you owe the text on which you base your interpretation to those who ask for it,

 

17 minutes ago, CV75 said:

LOL -- of course, but why is it you won't share that which can be learned, from the documentation requested to explain of your POV?

 

9 minutes ago, CV75 said:

So what are the actual changes, and the the meaningful aspects of these changes in teachings, especially in comparison with your earlier post that they run parallel to lifting the priesthood ban?

No quotes, no explanations, hmmm... how else can we avoid the difficult questions?

 

I've provided two of the texts for you to start with.  If you are not willing to go read them, I can't really do much more.

 

[CV75]

33 minutes ago, rockpond said:

I've provided two of the texts for you to start with.  If you are not willing to go read them, I can't really do much more.

For the sake of our conversation, I am asking you to provide the pertinent sections that lead to your conclusions. It's rather cheesy to refer to a whole volume and expect anyone to divine what you're forming your specific claims on -- how is anyone to guess from hundreds of lines of text the teachings you say have changed?

[kllindley]

23 hours ago, Analytics said:

“Sometimes masturbation is the introduction to the more serious sins of exhibitionism and the gross sin of homosexuality. We would avoid mentioning these unholy terms and these reprehensible practices were it not for the fact that we have a responsibility to the youth of Zion that they be not deceived.” (Ensign, Nov. 1980, p. 97.)

We also need to teach our children plainly that homosexuality is a perversion of the Lord’s designated roles of men and women. Homosexuality is sexual relations between those of the same sex, whether men or women. When referring to homosexual women, the term lesbian is sometimes used.

“Be not deceived,” wrote the Apostle Paul, “neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind … shall inherit the kingdom of God.” (1 Cor. 6:9–10; see also Rom. 1:24–27.)

If one has tendencies or desires for relations with one’s own gender, he overcomes them the same as he would the urge toward other sexual sins.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1986/12/talking-with-your-children-about-moral-purity?lang=eng (emphasis added)

In the above list of comprehensive quotes, this is conveniently left out.  

Homosexuality is sexual relations between those of the same sex

They give you their definition right there.  Way back then!

If one has tendencies or desires for relations with one’s own gender, he overcomes them the same as he would the urge toward other sexual sins

How would a young man "overcome" the urge to fornicate with a young woman?  By eliminating his sexual attraction completely?  Or by making choices about how to manage the behavior?  

Should a man attracted to other women, get married to his girlfriend in order to cure his attraction to other women?  Or should he avoid getting married all together until he no longer has any attraction to other women?  That is the silly dichotomy presented by the blogger above.  A man wanting to be chaste but still sexually attracted to many women doesn't get married to cure himself, or to prove his worthiness.  He gets married to the right woman at the right time in the right place and honors his covenants independent of his attractions to other women. or men.

 

[kllindley]

2 hours ago, rockpond said:

I see the change in wording as a change in understanding, which therefore became a change in teachings.

Ah, and I see the meanings of words change with changes in understanding, requiring different words to teach the same principles.  I try to understand what people meant when they wrote/spoke, rather than imposing a modern definition on their words.  

 

[CV75]

Has anything changed in the last 12 hours? LOL

It appears that we still have a version of “It’s in the Bible; look it up!” to assert indefensible claims that the Church’s doctrines on [insert the least offensive term] have changed. It appears we still have an embarrassing dependence on parroting bloggers' spin on snippets with expectations to link to links to do the same.

Maybe it will be a helpful exercise for these posters to lay out what think hasn’t changed, and I will follow suit with what I think has changed… because it’s my idea, you go first, but use decent quotes!

[ALarson]

I don't have a lot of time to spend on this today, but here are a few quotes regarding some of the changes that have occurred over the years in what was taught by our leaders on this topic:

I don't believe it is taught anymore that masturbation leads to homosexuality:

Quote

"Prophets anciently and today condemn masturbation. It induces feelings of guilt and shame. It is detrimental to spirituality. It indicates slavery to the flesh, not that mastery of it and the growth toward godhood which is the object of our mortal life. Our modern prophet has indicated that no young man should be called on a mission who is not free from this practice. What is more, it too often leads to grievous sin, even to that sin against nature, homosexuality. For, done in private, it evolves often into mutual masturbation-practiced with another person of the same sex and thence into total homosexuality...."
- Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, Pages 77-79, 81-82

Or from failure in the home:

Quote

 

"Today we are aware of great problems in our society. The most obvious are sexual promiscuity, homosexuality, drug abuse, alcoholism, vandalism, pornography, and violence. These grave problems are symptoms of failure in the home— the disregarding of principles and practices established by God in the very beginning." 

-Ezra Taft Benson, Presiding Apostle November 1982, "Fundamentals of Enduring Family Relationships", Ensign, p. 59.

 

 

 

Quote

 

"It should go without saying that many of these problems would be alleviated if parents would spend more time teaching and rearing their children. Related to the story that I gave at the beginning of my talk is evidence of a clinical researcher who, after studying 850 individual cases, stated: "Homosexuality would not occur where there is a normal, loving father-and-son relationship."

J. Richard Clarke, 2nd Counselor in Presiding Bishopric, "Ministering to Needs through LDS Social Services", Ensign, May 1977, p. 85.

 

Or that homosexuality is caused by selfishness that can be cured:

Quote

 

"The cause of this disorder has remained hidden for so long because we have been looking for it in the wrong place. When the cause is discovered, it may be nothing so mysterious after all. It may be hidden because it is so obvious. Have you explored the possibility that the cause when found, will turn out to be a very typical form of selfishness - selfishness in a very subtle form? Now - and understand this - 1 do not think for a minute that the form of selfishness at the root of perversion is a conscious one, at least not to begin with. I am sure it is quite the opposite. Selfishness can attach itself to an individual without his being aware that he is afflicted with it. It can become imbedded so deeply and disguised so artfully as to be almost indistinguishable. It is hard to believe that any individual would, by a clear, conscious decision or by a pattern of them, choose a course of deviation. It is much more subtle than that. If one could even experiment with the possibility that selfishness of a very subtle nature may be the cause of this disorder, that quickly clarifies many things. It opens the possibility of putting some very sick things in order... When one has the humility to admit that a spiritual disorder is tied to perversion and that selfishness rests at the root of it, already the way is open to the treatment of the condition. It is a painful admission indeed that selfishness may be at the root of it, but we do not have much evidence that one can cure perversion by trying to cure perversion. If unselfishness can effect a cure, we ought to be desperate enough by now at least to experiment with the possibility. I repeat, we have had very little success in trying to remedy perversion by treating perversion. It is very possible to cure it by treating selfishness... you can understand unselfishness and selfishness. You can learn to cure perversion".

Elder Boyd K. Packer, To the One, delivered at 12-stake regional conference March 5, 1978.

 

 

Edited November 4, 2016 by ALarson

[kllindley]

7 minutes ago, ALarson said:

 

Or selfishness that can be cured:

 

Huh? Selfishness cannot be cured these days? 

[Gray]

4 minutes ago, kllindley said:

Huh? Selfishness cannot be cured these days? 

I think he means church leaders teaching that homosexuality is a form of selfishness that can be cured. No one says that anymore. 

Edited November 4, 2016 by Gray

[ALarson]

Here are a few quotes regarding what was taught that homosexuality could be cured and how to cure it (and I believe these are no longer taught by our current leaders):

Quote

 

'"Homosexuality can be cured if the battle is well organized and pursued vigorously and continuously."

- Dallin H. Oaks, "Principles to Govern Possible Public Statement on Legislation Affecting Rights of Homosexuals,"

 

From the Pamphlet for church leaders, entitled Hope For Transgressors (1970) ;

Quote

"In the event that you have members who have homosexual tendencies or activities, it will be your privilege and responsibility to assist them to effect a cure and bring their lives back into total normalcy."

https://www.scribd.com/document/329822240/Hope-for-Transgressors

Quote

"The entrenched homosexual has generally and gradually moved all of his interests and affections to those of his own sex rather than to the opposite sex and herein is another step. When you feel he is ready, he should be encouraged to date and gradually move his life toward the normal.

If they will close the door to the intimate associations with their own sex and open it wide to that of the other sex, of course in total propriety, and then be patient and determined, gradually they can move their romantic interests where they belong.

Homosexuality CAN be cured."

https://www.scribd.com/document/329822240/Hope-for-Transgressors

And, thank goodness we do not teach that we should "wipe them out" today:

Quote

 

"Only be the destruction of those who practice them. Why, if a little nest of them were left that were guilty of these things, they would soon corrupt others, as some are being corrupted among us... how can this [sodomy] be stopped? Not while those who have knowledge of these filthy crimes exist. The only way, according to all that I can understand as the word of God, is for the Lord to wipe them out, that there will be none left to perpetuate the knowledge of these dreadful practices among the children of men. And God will do it, as sure as He has spoken by the mouths of His prophets."

- George Q. Cannon, 1897. Also available on pg. 53, The year of jubilee: A full report of the proceedings of the fiftieth annual conference of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, held in the large tabernacle, Salt Lake City, Utah, April 6th, 7th and 8th, A. D. 1880 ; Also a report of the exercises in the Salt Lake Assembly Hall, on the Sunday and Monday just preceding the conference, Volume 1. Also October 1897, Report of the 68th Semiannual General Conference of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 65-66.

 

 

Edited November 4, 2016 by ALarson

[kllindley]

10 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I don't have a lot of time to spend on this today, but here are a few quotes regarding some of the changes that have occurred over the years in what was taught by our leaders on this topic:

I don't believe it is taught anymore that masturbation leads to homosexuality:

Or from failure in the home:

Further, you have not addressed the distinction between sexual orientation and homosexual behavior. I have provided a quote explicitly stating that church leaders,  when using the term homosexuality,  referred to sexual relations between two members of the same sex. Unless you can provide some source that says otherwise it is unfair and inaccurate to claim they were referring to sexual orientation as we now understand it.

[kllindley]

4 minutes ago, Gray said:

I think he means church leaders teaching that homosexuality is a form of selfishness that can be cured. No one says that anymore. 

Sexual orientation or homosexual behavior? Which was Elder Packer referring to? 

[kllindley]

6 minutes ago, ALarson said:

"Homosexuality can be cured if the battle is well organized and pursued vigorously and continuously.' [This obviously refers to the condition of sexual attraction to persons of the same sex."

- Dallin H. Oaks, "Principles to Govern Possible Public Statement on Legislation Affecting Rights of Homosexuals

Can you find any evidence that this bracketed comment is part of the original? 

[ALarson]

9 minutes ago, Gray said:

I think he means church leaders teaching that homosexuality is a form of selfishness that can be cured. No one says that anymore. 

Fixed it to make it more clear  

Thanks.

[ALarson]

6 minutes ago, kllindley said:

Can you find any evidence that this bracketed comment is part of the original? 

Fixed it before you posted this.

Edited November 4, 2016 by ALarson

[ALarson]

12 minutes ago, kllindley said:

Further, you have not addressed the distinction between sexual orientation and homosexual behavior

That was not asked for.  We have been discussing the fact that some teachings regarding homosexuality (causes, cures, etc.)  have changed or evolved over the years.  These quotes show that this is true (unless you have heard a leader teach that masturbation leads to homosexuality lately or that homosexuals should be wiped out). 

Edited November 4, 2016 by ALarson

[kllindley]

2 minutes ago, ALarson said:

We have been discussing the fact that some teachings regarding homosexuality (causes, cures, etc.)  have changed or evolved over the years. 

Particularly what the word even means.  No one that I can see is arguing that the wording hasn't changed. What we are claiming is the core meaning hasn't changed. 

[ALarson]

9 minutes ago, kllindley said:

Particularly what the word even means.  No one that I can see is arguing that the wording hasn't changed. What we are claiming is the core meaning hasn't changed. 

We have been discussing that some of the teachings regarding homosexuality have changed over the years (from our church leaders).  These quotes show the teachings have changed as well as the recommendations from the leaders regarding how to help or cure a homosexual member (encouraging them to date the opposite sex and marry is no longer done, for example as it was at one time). 

If you want to change the discussion now to something different, go ahead and do that.  But I've supplied quotes for what was asked.

Edited November 4, 2016 by ALarson

[ALarson]

dup

Edited November 4, 2016 by ALarson

[kllindley]

27 minutes ago, ALarson said:

encouraging them to date the opposite sex and marry is no longer done

To an extent. We are told that we can move forward as any other member. Straight members are free to date or not date, marry or not marry, as they feel is appropriate for them. Same is true for us.