Change in the doctrine of homosexuality

[JulieM]

12 minutes ago, kllindley said:

You are arguing that he meant something the APA didn't even acknowledge existed at the time?  

Sounds like that's what Scott is arguing (differentiating between the two and assuming a meaning into Pres. Kimball's precise statement that's not there).  He's the one saying "behavior" not homosexuality.

 

Edited November 4, 2016 by JulieM

[JulieM]

10 minutes ago, kllindley said:

Two boys masturbating together can say it was "no homo"  but much more becomes "totes homo"

How often does that even happen?  I'm sure it's rare.

Maybe an older man abusing a child, but boys together?  They're usually mortified at the thought of anyone knowing they've done this in private let alone doing it with a friend! Especially active church boys.

Edited November 4, 2016 by JulieM

[kllindley]

27 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Sounds like that's what Scott is arguing (differentiating between the two and assuming a meaning into Pres. Kimball's precise statement).

 

huh? Scott is arguing that Elder Kimball (1969) was anachronistically using a term regularly understood to mean behavior to describe a concept (orientation) that was not yet acknowledged by the APA?   

Edited for spelling

Edited November 4, 2016 by kllindley

[kllindley]

Just now, JulieM said:

How often does that even happen?  I'm sure it's rare.

Maybe an older man abusing a child, but boys together?  They're usually mortified at the thought of anyone knowing they've done this in private let alone doing it with friend! Especially active church boys.

I would guess often enough that Elder Kimball heard a number of men trying to repent of homosexual activity saying that that was how they were first exposed to the idea.  And that he heard that often enough that in 1969, he felt it was worth mentioning. 

[JulieM]

5 minutes ago, kllindley said:

I would guess often enough that Elder Kimball heard a number of men trying to repent of homosexual activity saying that that was how they were first exposed to the idea. 

You don't know that's true (unless Pres. Kimball stated that).  You make a lot of assumptions to fit your narrative here.

 

[kllindley]

Good grief.  The history of why he wrote the book is public.  

Quote

The experience which impelled him finally to write a book was the day-by-day counseling of people in trouble

http://scottwoodward.org/SpencerWKimball_miracleofforgiveness.html

 

[JulieM]

19 minutes ago, kllindley said:

huh? Scott is arguing that Elder Kimball (1969) was achronistically using a term regularly understood to mean behavior to describe a concept (orientation) that was not yet acknowledged by the APA?   

Achronistically?

[Jeanne]

3 minutes ago, kllindley said:

Good grief.  The history of why he wrote the book is public.  

 

This book was the worst thing that ever happened to young people..ever..IMO.

[kllindley]

2 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Achronistically?

Fixed the typo

Thanks

[JulieM]

5 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

This book was the worst thing that ever happened to young people..ever..IMO.

I agree.  Is it still even available?  Please tell me it's out of circulation now

 

[JulieM]

14 minutes ago, kllindley said:

Good grief.  The history of why he wrote the book is public.  

You still don't know that what you stated was true.  There's no way of specifically knowing that from just a general statement (and not even a direct quote from Pres. Kimball).

Edited November 4, 2016 by JulieM

[Jeanne]

1 minute ago, JulieM said:

I agree.  Is it still even available?  Please tell me it's out of circulation now

 

I think so.  I know for sure it was handed to me in 2008. 

[CV75]

1 hour ago, ALarson said:

 

Can you supply quotes from our current leaders supporting that these are still teachings today?   If not, the teachings have changed from when these were taught years ago.  Your own opinions may not have changed, but that's different than what is being discussed or asked for here.

Again, I'm not going to get drawn into a nit picky discussion again.  I've provided quotes from past leaders stating some of what used to be taught regarding homosexuality, if no one can provide quotes from current leaders teaching the same, then I think it's obvious the teachings have changed.  

Again, that's a good thing and I'm not sure why some here are fighting to state we still teach some of what used to be taught (see quotes).

My ability to provide quotes has nothing to do with my observations. Certainly those, who like yourself, “don't have a lot of time to spend on this today,” and don’t counter your quotes, realize that is no indicator that the doctrines have changed. Your condition that, “if no one can provide quotes from current leaders teaching the same, then I think it's obvious the teachings have changed,” is ridiculous and looks like you’re trying to duck out of this ASAP.

The thing is: you haven’t provided a side-by-side comparison between “then” and “now”, which is still your main problem with demonstrating your observation. Are we to receive documentation of he “now” by osmosis, or is it supposed to be patently obvious to even the most casual observer? Did the teaching go from “something” to “nothing at all”? By your own assertion, no; they changed, but you haven’t shown where or how.

I invited you to take some quotes and demonstrate what has not changed while I do the same to demonstrate that they have (Posted 8 hours ago ).That would have avoided a lot of so-called nit-pickiness. You didn’t take me up on it.

And now it’s about the Church not “teach[ing] some of what used to be taught…”? LOL

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Are there other quotes that use the term "cured"? (Very confusing day, trying to do three things at once...avoiding frustration by distraction through reading)

We all seek to be cured from sinful desires and habits.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, ALarson said:

Again, I'm not going to argue every single point.

Just. Pick. One. A side-by-side comparison.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, ALarson said:

I supplied some (I just gave you the link again to another one).  I'm not going to post every single one I found.  I supplied enough quotes to show there are many teachings that are no longer taught by our leaders (and again, that's a good thing).

Also, many teachings have remained constant (I think no one has claimed otherwise here at least from I've seen).

Yeah, that is what I thought.  I will have to come back to the thread when I can read it in a coherent fashion anyway.  It is rude when people are doing serious work not to give it more attention.

[Calm]

36 minutes ago, CV75 said:

We all seek to be cured from sinful desires and habits.

I am not arguing for or against the term in how it is being used in these quotes.  Just exploring by looking at others's efforts of charting how much the conversation has and has not changed over the years in various measures.

However, there are some attributes that are neither sinless or sinful; it is how we respond to them that matters.  I am not sure we should use the word "cure" with them.  For example, I am an natural introvert who is extremely shy.  I don't want or need to be cured of that personality attribute.  I do need to learn how to control it so that I do not create obstacles for myself in personal growth and eternal progression or make life harder for others because I avoid stuff that makes me anxious.  That part of me that has developed through my efforts to shape the behaviours that result from this attribute into more positive avenues is as much the 'real' me as what I started out with (or remember starting out with, the shyness aspectattribute might have been triggered by something before my memories began, I definitely remember several things in my childhood that helped cement it into my dominant way of approaching the world until my early 20s; introversion/extraversion appears to have a large physical aspect).

I think it would be wise to avoid the word "cure" in conversations about personal attributes as it has way too much baggage and may not be what is really meant when God talks about forsaking the natural man or whatever the language is.

Edited November 4, 2016 by Calm

[JulieM]

42 minutes ago, CV75 said:

We all seek to be cured from sinful desires and habits.

I doubt any leader today would use the word "cured" in relation to someone who is gay or give ways of how a homosexual could be "cured".  That's definitely a change.

[JulieM]

57 minutes ago, CV75 said:

My ability to provide quotes has nothing to do with my observations. Certainly those, who like yourself, “don't have a lot of time to spend on this today,” and don’t counter your quotes, realize that is no indicator that the doctrines have changed.

Did AL claim that "doctrines have changed"? The quotes from earlier definitely show a change in teachings and that's what at least I thought was being discussed. When you claim these same teachings are still being taught today, I do think the burden IS on you to post any quotes by our leaders today stating the same thing or teaching. You must have quotes in mind if you're making that claim and should be able to provide them.

Edited November 4, 2016 by JulieM

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

This book was the worst thing that ever happened to young people..ever..IMO.

Seriously, genocide was less damaging than this book?

9/11? The obesity epidemic?  The plague? Parents who physically abuse kids?  Car crashes?  Cyber bullying and stalking?

(I suspect you get my drift)

[Calm]

1 hour ago, JulieM said:

I agree.  Is it still even available?  Please tell me it's out of circulation now

 

It is not being published by the Distribution Center any more.  Given the used book trade, it won't be out of circulation for decades, if not centuries and probably never will be as it is in digital library databases, etc.

Even if it no longer gets quoted by leaders or members, I suspect a certain set of critics will never stop circulating their preferred quotes from it as well as their claims about it.

Edited November 4, 2016 by Calm

[Scott Lloyd]

16 minutes ago, Calm said:

It is not being published by the Distribution Center any more.  Given the used book trade, it won't be out of circulation for decades, if not centuries and probably never will be as it is in digital library databases, etc.

Even if it no longer gets quoted by leaders or members, I suspect a certain set of critics will never stop circulating their preferred quotes from it as well as their claims about it.

I don't think it ever was published by the Distrubution Center. It was either Deseret Book or Bookcraft (I don't recall which). Thus it was commercially published. Commercially published books go out of print all the time, I assume for a number of reasons, not the least of which is drop in sales. 

To say the Church ordered the discontinuance of this book is assuming facts not in evidence. 

Of course, given your background as a bookseller, I'm sure I'm not saying anything about commercial publishing you don't already know. 

Edited November 4, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

9 hours ago, JulieM said:

How often does that even happen?  I'm sure it's rare.

Maybe an older man abusing a child, but boys together?  They're usually mortified at the thought of anyone knowing they've done this in private let alone doing it with a friend! Especially active church boys.

Boys sometimes experiment sexually, including with peers. They sometimes talk openly and joke about masturbation along with other aspects of sex.  It is naive to assume this never happens. 

In fact, it happens frequently enough that it is more than reasonable to draw the conclusion that Elder Kimball encountered this during his many years of counseling and thus chose to mention it in his book. 

Edited November 5, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

33 minutes ago, Calm said:

Seriously, genocide was less damaging than this book?

9/11? The obesity epidemic?  The plague? Parents who physically abuse kids?  Car crashes?  Cyber bullying and stalking?

(I suspect you get my drift)

We could add to the list suicide, terminal illness, loss of parents or other family members, early involvement in crime and incarceration, poverty, homelessness. 

But yes, I'm sure your drift is abundantly clear by now. 

[Jeanne]

And I am sure Calm knew exactly what I meant. But yeah...I get your drift.

Edited November 5, 2016 by Jeanne