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On a thread that was closed for not supplying a topic for discussion.....

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http://www.mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2016/10/extra-behind-enemy-lines-great-mormon-history-coverup/

A Mormon Discussion Podcast that I hope we can all talk about.  Let me know what you think. I am not at home but will try and check in later.

 

I listened to the podcast. It takes apart Elder Packer's CES address where he defined what is a faithful/faith-promoting history of the Church.

He calls his blog "Radio Free Mormon broadcasting behind enemy lines." Who is his enemy? It appears his enemy is the Church and its leaders.

An hour-long monologue making a case that Boyd Packer was immoral, unethical, and a liar who worshipped a false God based on his CES talk about church history and Leonard Arrington. Also accuses the General Authorities of publishing books for the purpose of making a profit. He doesn't like Elder Packer who is portrayed as an evil man. Also dredges up the Gordon Hinckley's "I don't know" interview to question his integrity. Church leaders are part of a deceptive conspiracy to cover up the truth of church history.

Some here knew Leonard Arrington. I have enjoyed his writings. Is it fair to say he was demoted from his position as Church Historian to a professor at BYU? Is it fair to claim Elder Packer was an unethical liar?

Edited by Bernard Gui
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After listening to the podcast, I think Pres. Packer possibly had regrets over trying to keep things hidden since it made it so there was the need for the church essays. Which may have done as much harm to members' testimonies as the anti Mormon information did.

Edited by Tacenda
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Well, as long as we're considering CFRs met by simply posting links (that doesn't cut it with me, but I'm not gonna press the issue with you), do you know of any reason why someone shouldn't accord great (indeed, nearly conclusive: often, one's perspective depends entirely on where one stands) weight to this treatment of "The Mantle is Far, Far Greater than the Intellect"?

http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_history/Boyd_K._Packer's_talk:_"The_Mantle_is_Far,_Far_Greater_Than_the_Intellect"

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Now, having said that, I will also say that I do have sympathy for members, members not given to reading — I have sympathy for members who, with the advent of google, felt blindsided by things they'd ever heard before. But I also don't think it's fair to blame church leaders for this, or to accuse them of "hiding" things. Rather church leaders had a pretty good idea what the average member was capable of handling, and that is what they gave them. For those who were capable of more, the seekers — well, all they had to do was go to a library.

Edited by bdouglas
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7 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Well, as long as we're considering CFRs met by simply posting links (that doesn't cut it with me, but I'm not gonna press the issue with you), do you know of any reason why someone shouldn't accord great (indeed, nearly conclusive: often, one's perspective depends entirely on where one stands) weight to this treatment of "The Mantle is Far, Far Greater than the Intellect"?

http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_history/Boyd_K._Packer's_talk:_"The_Mantle_is_Far,_Far_Greater_Than_the_Intellect"

Thanks for posting this. The FAIR article and the blog in the OP tell opposite sides of the story. I recommend that anyone who listens to the blog also read the article. I'm curious if Radio Free Mormon did.

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5 hours ago, Nevo said:

I'm not sure what your definition of "available" is, but to this day BYU restricts access to Fawn Brodie's and Dan Vogel's biographies of Joseph Smith. You can't find them on the shelves or even in the non-circulating reference section. The only copies are squirreled away in Special Collections. To see them, you need to fill out a Reading Privilege Request form and provide photo identification. Approval is "limited to those who show scholarly intent." Assuming you clear all of these hurdles, you are only allowed to read the books in the reading room (after your phone and other personal belongings have been securely stowed in a locker). It's clear to me that BYU doesn't want to make these books readily available to students—otherwise they would just put them on the shelves and let people sign them out.

This is odd. I found plenty of anti-Mormon books in the BYU library stacks including one with the temple endowment text.

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9 hours ago, Nevo said:

I'm not sure what your definition of "available" is, but to this day BYU restricts access to Fawn Brodie's and Dan Vogel's biographies of Joseph Smith. You can't find them on the shelves or even in the non-circulating reference section. The only copies are squirreled away in Special Collections. To see them, you need to fill out a Reading Privilege Request form and provide photo identification. Approval is "limited to those who show scholarly intent." Assuming you clear all of these hurdles, you are only allowed to read the books in the reading room (after your phone and other personal belongings have been securely stowed in a locker). It's clear to me that BYU doesn't want to make these books readily available to students—otherwise they would just put them on the shelves and let people sign them out.

I remember seeing No Man Knows My History in the BYU Bookstore on several occasions.  And all sorts of things on the library shelves when I used to go down to browse and xerox things.such as back issues of Sunstone and Dialogue and BYU Studies in the days before the internet.

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

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11 hours ago, bdouglas said:

I get really tired of hearing this. Nobdoy was “hiding” the history. But what church leaders like Elder Packer were doing is using the history as a teaching tool. They were telling a story. And when you tell a story, you emphasize some aspects, deemphasize others, and some aspects you leave out altogether.

This is different than hiding.
 
When Moses was telling the story of Joseph and his brothers in Genesis, do you think he told the straight factual history? Of course not. He wanted to tell a story that would inculcate, or teach, virtue. He was also creating an origin story, a national myth — in other words he was doing something other than teaching straight history. So he re-ordered things. He tidied things up. He had to for the story to be effective. Now when the day comes that the straight history of Joseph and his brothers is finally available to us, will malcontents and unbelievers say, “Moses hid the true history of Joseph and his brothers from us!”
 
Now for anyone who was interested in the straight, or factual, history of the church, it was always available. You could get B. H. Roberts history of the church at any Deseret Book, and all of the other “factual” church histories at any library, especially the BYU library and the church’s own library in Salt Lake. So forgive me if I find it funny that the people who were too lazy to seek out these books and instead relied on the church to spoon feed them, now blame the church for “hiding” the truth from them.

Why did it take so long to get the counsel of the 50 minutes? What was edited out, if anything? Why won't they release the William Clayton journals? This seems like hiding the history to me. Sure there is more openess today but there is still a long ways to go.

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9 hours ago, Nevo said:

To see them, you need to fill out a Reading Privilege Request form and provide photo identification.

Is that still how it works at BYU?! I would have thought by now that would have changed for things like biographies about Joseph Smith. I found a pdf of the Reading Privilege Request form.  Apparently applicants have to continually re-declare their research interests.

Edited by Oliver_Cowdery
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37 minutes ago, James Tunney said:

Why did it take so long to get the counsel of the 50 minutes? What was edited out, if anything? Why won't they release the William Clayton journals? This seems like hiding the history to me. Sure there is more openess today but there is still a long ways to go.

The fact that we know about them and have done so for so long now tells me it ain't hidden, it's the minutes of the Council of 50

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It's not hidden to the Mormon scholars etc. But to the average Mormon, maybe. Since it wasn't taught in Seminary or Relief Society and Priesthood, or Gospel Doctrine/Gospel Essentials. 

Now maybe some things will get put into the curriculum, such as Joseph's Smith's polygamy now being taught in Seminary. But still not given to the adults, I guess they are past inoculation. Oh, forgot, we have the church essays. But they weren't well publicized until recently in some talks etc. (but I do remember something in Church News once).

I guess I need the members including my family members to know of the issues so that I can break free of feeling isolated for knowing more than they do.

That's probably the gist of it. For years I felt like an anomaly for knowing things about the church's history when others didn't.

Edited by Tacenda
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11 hours ago, Nevo said:

I'm not sure what your definition of "available" is, but to this day BYU restricts access to Fawn Brodie's and Dan Vogel's biographies of Joseph Smith. You can't find them on the shelves or even in the non-circulating reference section. The only copies are squirreled away in Special Collections. To see them, you need to fill out a Reading Privilege Request form and provide photo identification. Approval is "limited to those who show scholarly intent." Assuming you clear all of these hurdles, you are only allowed to read the books in the reading room (after your phone and other personal belongings have been securely stowed in a locker). It's clear to me that BYU doesn't want to make these books readily available to students—otherwise they would just put them on the shelves and let people sign them out.

Wow...I am surprised but not...I mean you need photo ID to read a book? Okaaaaaay

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30 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

It's not hidden to the Mormon scholars etc. But to the average Mormon, maybe. Since it wasn't taught in Seminary or Relief Society and Priesthood, or Gospel Doctrine/Gospel Essentials. 

Now maybe some things will get put into the curriculum, such as Joseph's Smith's polygamy now being taught in Seminary. But still not given to the adults, I guess they are past inoculation. Oh, forgot, we have the church essays. But they weren't well publicized until recently in some talks etc. (but I do remember something in Church News once).

 

You seem to be imagining Sunday classes more like Church History 101 than as classes where members are taught to have faith in Jesus Christ and live the gospel.  It would seem to me that Joseph Smith's polygamy is something that fits President Packers definition of something that is true but not useful.  I'm not really sure how it impacts my life today.  Not a bit as far as I can tell.

I'm also surprised when adult members of the church say they know nothing about the church and polygamy.  These are things I've known about for as long as I remember. 

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32 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

It's not hidden to the Mormon scholars etc. But to the average Mormon, maybe. Since it wasn't taught in Seminary or Relief Society and Priesthood, or Gospel Doctrine/Gospel Essentials. 

Now maybe some things will get put into the curriculum, such as Joseph's Smith's polygamy now being taught in Seminary. But still not given to the adults, I guess they are past inoculation. Oh, forgot, we have the church essays. But they weren't well publicized until recently in some talks etc. (but I do remember something in Church News once).

I guess I need the members including my family members to know of the issues so that I can break free of feeling isolated for knowing more than they do.

That's probably the gist of it. For years I felt like an anomaly for knowing things about the church's history when others didn't.

Be happy that you know some things now.  It gives you a free agency that others may not have." Ignorance is the mother of devotion"..a quote by a good friend of mine.  You can't define hidden because it depends on the level of knowledge of history. 

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15 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

On a thread that was closed for not supplying a topic for discussion.....

I listened to the podcast. It takes apart Elder Packer's CES address where he defined what is a faithful/faith-promoting history of the Church.

He calls his blog "Radio Free Mormon broadcasting behind enemy lines." Who is his enemy? It appears his enemy is the Church and its leaders.

An hour-long monologue making a case that Boyd Packer was immoral, unethical, and a liar who worshipped a false God based on his CES talk about church history and Leonard Arrington.

Those words immoral, unethical and a liar are yours in this description.  I'm of the opinion that our leaders make mistakes.  And if there ever was a mistake it was this talk to CES instructors, if you ask me.

As worshipping a false God.  That's a bit misleading. He's asking does God really want these teachers to not tell the truth?  What God would do that?  is basically how he frames it. 

15 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Also accuses the General Authorities of publishing books for the purpose of making a profit.

Again this is a bit misleading.  In Packer's talk he really questions historians who want to tell the truth by saying they want to make a profit or because of their egos.  This podcaster, who I think is Corbin V, turns it around if that's what Packer wants to say of historians.  Because Church leaders too have published works.  But why question a historian for publishing works?  It was a terrible point and effort by Packer. 

15 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

 

He doesn't like Elder Packer who is portrayed as an evil man. Also dredges up the Gordon Hinckley's "I don't know" interview to question his integrity. Church leaders are part of a deceptive conspiracy to cover up the truth of church history.

I agree that he took this way further than he or I could know.  And for that it is a problem.  But his overall point is good.  His taking apart of Packer's talk is well done.  His setting up the context is very good and demonstrates the weakness of this whole affair, in my estimation. 

15 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Some here knew Leonard Arrington. I have enjoyed his writings. Is it fair to say he was demoted from his position as Church Historian to a professor at BYU? Is it fair to claim Elder Packer was an unethical liar?

It's fair to say Leonard Arrington's goal was never met as an historian and that that largely depended on the leaders above him.  He simply was not allowed to do history, very well.  Elder Packer has lied as have all of us.  I think this clearly demonstrates the real weakness of Elder Packer's talk.  It is interesting to note Elder Packer was opposed to openness, at least to some degree.  it is interesting to note his disdain for researchers, historians and intellectuals, at least to some extent.  But mistakes happen.  We need to acknowledge them and move on. 

Overall I'd give the podcast a solid B.  I'd agree it took the point too far and thus loses some level of credibility but overall pretty good. 

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I just wanted to apologize for not giving subject to the closed thread.  In Tooele taking care of parents and was doing everything 90 miles an hour...:rolleyes:

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2 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I just wanted to apologize for not giving subject to the closed thread.  In Tooele taking care of parents and was doing everything 90 miles an hour...:rolleyes:

Are you sure there are any speed limits posted at 90 miles per hour?  The few times I've been there it seems the posted limits were generally closer to 35, as I drove through town. 

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On hidden history, how about Widstoe editing quotes from Brigham Young for Discourses of Brigham Young. He took quotes that taught Adam-God, doctored them so they looked like they conform with current teachings, and then included them in Discourses?

 

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1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

It's not hidden to the Mormon scholars etc. But to the average Mormon, maybe. Since it wasn't taught in Seminary or Relief Society and Priesthood, or Gospel Doctrine/Gospel Essentials. 

Now maybe some things will get put into the curriculum, such as Joseph's Smith's polygamy now being taught in Seminary. But still not given to the adults, I guess they are past inoculation. Oh, forgot, we have the church essays. But they weren't well publicized until recently in some talks etc. (but I do remember something in Church News once).

I guess I need the members including my family members to know of the issues so that I can break free of feeling isolated for knowing more than they do.

That's probably the gist of it. For years I felt like an anomaly for knowing things about the church's history when others didn't.

For those who refuse to read and have to be spoon fed all of their knowledge,  

Almost Everything is hidden.

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1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

Those words immoral, unethical and a liar are yours in this description.  I'm of the opinion that our leaders make mistakes.  And if there ever was a mistake it was this talk to CES instructors, if you ask me.

As worshipping a false God.  That's a bit misleading. He's asking does God really want these teachers to not tell the truth?  What God would do that?  is basically how he frames it. 

Again this is a bit misleading.  In Packer's talk he really questions historians who want to tell the truth by saying they want to make a profit or because of their egos.  This podcaster, who I think is Corbin V, turns it around if that's what Packer wants to say of historians.  Because Church leaders too have published works.  But why question a historian for publishing works?  It was a terrible point and effort by Packer. 

I agree that he took this way further than he or I could know.  And for that it is a problem.  But his overall point is good.  His taking apart of Packer's talk is well done.  His setting up the context is very good and demonstrates the weakness of this whole affair, in my estimation. 

It's fair to say Leonard Arrington's goal was never met as an historian and that that largely depended on the leaders above him.  He simply was not allowed to do history, very well.  Elder Packer has lied as have all of us.  I think this clearly demonstrates the real weakness of Elder Packer's talk.  It is interesting to note Elder Packer was opposed to openness, at least to some degree.  it is interesting to note his disdain for researchers, historians and intellectuals, at least to some extent.  But mistakes happen.  We need to acknowledge them and move on. 

Overall I'd give the podcast a solid B.  I'd agree it took the point too far and thus loses some level of credibility but overall pretty good. 

Radio Free Mormon (RFM) spends several minutes defining lying from the Gospel Principals manual chapter 31 which says may have been approved by BKP. Leaving out information is deceptive and "can be" lying. (I'm not sure there is that distinction.) RFM says he is trying to avoid calling BKP a liar, but makes the points that telling part of the truth is sinful, that BKP is involved in deceiving the Church and forcing CES to join him in the deception, and sarcastically notes that BKP does not refer to this chapter in his talk. The conclusion that he thinks BKP is a liar is unavoidable.

BKP says if you are a CES teacher and tell the "whole truth and nothing but the truth" then you are serving the wrong master. RFM sarcastically twists that to say BKP is the master they should serve. BKP wants them to teach deceptive half-truths and inaccurate history and uses Orwellian double-speak to threaten them.

RFM says BKS apparently knows some temple covenants along the lines of being dishonest and deceptive. and that God is a being that deals in half truths.

RFM says by forcing them to lie to the Church, BKP restricts their agency. BKP's God is one who approves deception and restricts agency. BKP favors the God who restricts agency. BKP favors Satan's plan. 

RFM says he is broadcasting behind enemy lines. He makes it abundantly clear that he believes BKP is a General in the enemy's army.

Edited by Bernard Gui
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      lawfully wedded as husband and wife.
        27. Which eternal truth corrects the following worldly philosophy: "As governments continue to redefine marriage, God's definition of
      marriage will change to reflect the values of modern society"? (1 mark)
      a) Marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God.
      b) God has commanded that the sacred powers of procreation are to be employed only between a man and a woman who are
      lawfully wedded as husband and wife.
      c) Changes in the civil law do not change the moral law that God has established.
        28. Which eternal truth corrects the following worldly philosophy: "The only purpose of marriage is for adults to find fulfillment and
      happiness"? (1 mark)
      a) Marriage between a man and a woman is the ideal setting for children to be born, reared, and nurtured.
      b) Marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God.
      c) God has commanded that the sacred powers of procreation are to be employed only between a man and a woman who are
      lawfully wedded as husband and wife.
      Section name: Explain Doctrine _
      Instructions: Write your answer on a piece of paper. Compare your response with the correct answer received from your teacher. After self-grading the explain-doctrine question, bubble in your answer sheet.
      Self-grade your answer for each question:
      a. Yes, I explained this in my response.
      b. No, I left this out of my response.
        29. What is an example of a truth that was restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith? Explain why the truth you chose can help you receive eternal life. (1 mark)
        30. What is an example of an ordinance that was restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith? Explain why the ordinance you chose can help you receive eternal life. (1 mark)
        31. What is an example of priesthood authority that was restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith? Explain why this authority of the priesthood can help you receive eternal life. (1 mark)
        32. Share your personal thoughts on the importance of the Prophet Joseph Smith. (1 mark)
    • By blueglass
      Really impressed with Kate Holbrook's interview with Terryl Givens.  She's thoughtful, candid, and inspiring as she speaks about her persistence to get a PhD and work full time for the church as a manger of church history.  She's working on a project with Lisa Tate on the history of the young women's organization.  
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2G7k1ggz7k&feature=em-uploademail
      One thing I caught that I hadn't heard before was when Terryl asks her about whether she felt a sense of loss and a sense of jubilation when studying the history of the RS.  Joseph envisioned a more collaborative relationship with the male priesthood, more autonomy, abundance of spiritual gifts, authority to administer ordinances including healing by the laying of hands.  Kate responds that she understands the hyperfocus on this time period, but she feels there is a lost opportunity in recognizing the accomplishments of the women of the 20th century - she then backtracks a bit and says:
      "I don't want to say that their isn't a difference, between - a time when a woman was able to say I have this terrific idea she's say the General RS president and she goes and talks to the president of the church about it.  That is certainly different than now, when she goes and talks to someone in the presiding bishopric, and it has to go through several levels to even get to the president.  There is a loss, and there is a difference."
      I had no idea that the General RS president did not have direct access to the quorum of the 12, and first presidency?  Why in 3 heavens does the general RS president still have such an auxiliary level of access to the presiding apostolic quorum, access to financial influence through Pres Bishopric perhaps, but no real budget to work with?  No seat on the correlation committee?  
      Kate has a great story about how Ardeth Greene Kapp (General YW president 84-92') while receiving a downpour of revelation would use innovative, clever ways and technology to push the ideas upward through the hierarchy.  
    • By FearlessFixxer
      http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/commentary/2017/11/26/commentary-the-gaslighting-within-mormonism-must-stop/
    • By canard78
      Elder Maynes CES devotional went into extensive detail on the first vision accounts last night. 
      Starts at 35:20:
      https://www.lds.org/broadcasts/the-truth-restored?lang=eng&_r=1
      I'm delighted that the essays and these topics are gradually becoming more mainstream. My mum (a primary president) even plans to use parts of the vision essay in sharing time this month (it's the "truth restored" section of the manual). I'll share this talk and article with her too as it's got some useful suggestions.
      A couple of questions: 
      - He said Joseph "wrote or dictated" the four accounts. Is that the best description of how the official account was written? I'll have to look up the Bushman reference I'm thinking of as I seem to remember him saying somewhere that the official version was a bit more of a co-creation or collaboration with Rigdon. I might be misremembering that so will try to check it.
      - He also says that it's the best documented vision in history. I wondered what the other contenders would be. 
      Any other thoughts?
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