Jump to content

Recommended Posts

10 hours ago, ksfisher said:

You seem to be imagining Sunday classes more like Church History 101 than as classes where members are taught to have faith in Jesus Christ and live the gospel.  It would seem to me that Joseph Smith's polygamy is something that fits President Packers definition of something that is true but not useful.  I'm not really sure how it impacts my life today.  Not a bit as far as I can tell.

I'm also surprised when adult members of the church say they know nothing about the church and polygamy.  These are things I've known about for as long as I remember. 

Not necessarily Joseph Smith Polygamy/Polyandry 101. But how about the wives of the prophets included in some things, that way you could show that Joseph lived polygamy and recognise women too. The women in the church's history have been given the swift kick to the behind, IMO. Nothing much is written about them for the curriculum in our church. 

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
23 hours ago, Nevo said:

I'm not sure what your definition of "available" is, but to this day BYU restricts access to Fawn Brodie's and Dan Vogel's biographies of Joseph Smith. You can't find them on the shelves or even in the non-circulating reference section. The only copies are squirreled away in Special Collections. To see them, you need to fill out a Reading Privilege Request form and provide photo identification. Approval is "limited to those who show scholarly intent." Assuming you clear all of these hurdles, you are only allowed to read the books in the reading room (after your phone and other personal belongings have been securely stowed in a locker). It's clear to me that BYU doesn't want to make these books readily available to students—otherwise they would just put them on the shelves and let people sign them out.

I know, and members of the Paramilitary Strike Force of the Strengthening Church Members Committee are posted at the entrances to bookstores as well, to monitor the buying habits of members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and to take appropriate corrective action (up to and including terminating the subject: they are fully authorized to kill, if necessary) should Church members exit bookstores with any inappropriate material. ;):rolleyes: 

https://www.amazon.com/Joseph-Smith-Making-Prophet-Biography/dp/1560851791

https://www.amazon.com/dp/0679730540/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_1?pf_rd_p=1944687582&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=1560851791&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=R16QVCSTP6VB2MNE8RK4

And just so I avoid incurring the wrath of the PSF of the SCMC:

https://www.amazon.com/maam-thats-not-history-vindication/dp/B0006EJPJC

 

  • Upvote 2
Link to post
On 10/27/2016 at 9:31 AM, ksfisher said:

You seem to be imagining Sunday classes more like Church History 101 than as classes where members are taught to have faith in Jesus Christ and live the gospel.  It would seem to me that Joseph Smith's polygamy is something that fits President Packers definition of something that is true but not useful.  I'm not really sure how it impacts my life today.  Not a bit as far as I can tell.

I'm also surprised when adult members of the church say they know nothing about the church and polygamy.  These are things I've known about for as long as I remember. 

 

Well, to be fair there is a Sunday-School class every four years called "Doctrine and Covenants and Church History", so if there were some Church members who imagined that they would be learning about Church History in that class, I think I'm going to cut them some slack.

Maybe in the interest of honesty they could rename the class "Selected Portions of the D&C Reinterpreted for Our Day and Carefully Crafted Faith-Promoting Nuggets from Church History."

 

Edited by cinepro
  • Upvote 2
Link to post
17 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Not necessarily Joseph Smith Polygamy/Polyandry 101. But how about the wives of the prophets included in some things, that way you could show that Joseph lived polygamy and recognise women too. The women in the church's history have been given the swift kick to the behind, IMO. Nothing much is written about them for the curriculum in our church. 

That is likely to change with the publication of women's journals and such, there will now be much more material easily accessed (it should be noted, IMO, that church narratives used for the most part have been widely available, it is understandable curriculum writers go to well known easy examples instead of spending time researching through journals and personal writings for new stories).

Link to post
12 minutes ago, Calm said:

Runnells hardly points out the whole history though.  He leaves things out himself.  If the argument is it has to be all or one is deceptively hiding history, what critic passes that standard?

(I don't believe believe Runnells was excommunicated because he pointed out troubling history.  It was his various conclusions about the Church and fundamental teachings being false and publicly promoting that which got him exed.)

Not sure if it matters, but Runnells attended his "court", but at the very end he resigned before they could take action.

Link to post
On 10/27/2016 at 2:10 PM, stemelbow said:

I believe he suggested some such people were there, as in in the audience, when he gave the speech.  So that would include Church employees doing research. How anyone would think it stealing for people to have access to documents to copy those documents is beyond me. 

If the intent was to copy to give them to others including those known for being antiMormon (speaking in the clinical sense) and not for the purpose of personal or professional research as required, would you consider that stealing?

Link to post
5 minutes ago, cinepro said:

Not sure if it matters, but Runnells attended his "court", but at the very end he resigned before they could take action.

True, my brain is still asleep today.  Corrected post, thank you.

Edited by Calm
Link to post
2 hours ago, Calm said:

Runnells hardly points out the whole history though.  He leaves things out himself.  If the argument is it has to be all or one is deceptively hiding history, what critic passes that standard?

(I don't believe believe Runnells was disciplined because he pointed out troubling history.  It was his various conclusions about the Church and fundamental teachings being false and publicly promoting that likely would have had him exed.)

add-on:. Corrected for accuracy

I don't think he intended to point out the whole history. It's not the critic's job to do so. The burden is on the seller and not the buyer. The allegation was and is that the church sold its members a version of history that doesn't correspond to the real history.

Packer approved of this when he only wanted faithful history told and when he said that things that are true aren't always useful. This is one of the reasons why people like Runnells are upset or disillusioned when confronted with Joseph marrying other men's wives, the seer stone v. the artwork depicting the translation in a different manner, etc. They feel they were sold something else, something false.

  • Upvote 4
Link to post
On October 26, 2016 at 6:10 PM, Bernard Gui said:

Some here knew Leonard Arrington. I have enjoyed his writings. Is it fair to say he was demoted from his position as Church Historian to a professor at BYU? Is it fair to claim Elder Packer was an unethical liar?

Back to the OP, would anyone care to comment on these questions?

Quote

Radio Free Mormon: "For a historian [or lawyer] it's a breach of [ethics, integrity, and morality] to not tell the truth, but apparently for BKP, and he presumes all the teachers he's talking to and the Church he represents, there's no breach of integrity or ethics or morality in being deceptive about Church history because that's the course of conduct he wants his listeners to follow."

 

Edited by Bernard Gui
Link to post
33 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Back to the OP, would anyone care to comment on these questions?

Radio Free Mormon: "For a historian [or lawyer] it's a breach of [ethics, integrity, and morality] to not tell the truth, but apparently for BKP, and he presumes all the teachers he's talking to and the Church he represents, there's no breach of integrity or ethics or morality in being deceptive about Church history because that's the course of conduct he wants his listeners to follow."

 

Let'sstart from the beginning.

1. What specific "not telling the truth" are you referring to?

2. What specific historians were CES teachers attending the seminar where Elder Packer was speaking?  To whom in the audience was he directing his remarks.

3. When you say "breach of ethics,, integrity, and morality" in teaching the Institute students, please tell us what immorality, what unethical behaviour, and what breach of ethics were being taught?  Please be specific on the specific lesson materials which included immorality, etc  Give us the exact quotes from those lessons.

Otherwise, this is simple minded, hysterical ranting and raving that we can find on any antiMormon video or web site.  Let's see what you got.

Edited by cdowis
Link to post
9 hours ago, cdowis said:

Let'sstart from the beginning.

1. What specific "not telling the truth" are you referring to?

2. What specific historians were CES teachers attending the seminar where Elder Packer was speaking?  To whom in the audience was he directing his remarks.

3. When you say "breach of ethics,, integrity, and morality" in teaching the Institute students, please tell us what immorality, what unethical behaviour, and what breach of ethics were being taught?  Please be specific on the specific lesson materials which included immorality, etc  Give us the exact quotes from those lessons.

Otherwise, this is simple minded, hysterical ranting and raving that we can find on any antiMormon video or web site.  Let's see what you got.

You'll have to listen to the podcast for his arguments.

I added the weird format because another poster said I misrepresented the podcast.

 

Edited by Bernard Gui
Link to post
50 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

You'll have to listen to the podcast for his arguments.

<Meta Discussion mode>

Uh.... no.  YOU wanted my view of the answers and as the author of this thread, if you want to discuss answers, YOU need to precisely  define the questions.

Link to post
18 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

I think it's interesting that Jeremy Runnels is asking for money for the CES letter. He's trying to profit off of apostasy and making others apostasize.

He's really just trying to profit off the publication and dissemination of a book he wrote.  He's hardly the first person to do that (the the tradition of book authorship, publication and sale for profit must go back centuries).  Whether or not someone apostatizes after reading it is up to them; Runnells gets paid either way if they buy the book or make a donation.

  • Upvote 2
Link to post
19 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said:

I think it's interesting that Jeremy Runnels is asking for money for the CES letter. He's trying to profit off of apostasy and making others apostasize.

It is also interesting that Church Apostles and other authorities ask for money for their books.  They are trying to profit on getting new members or member retention and making others pay for it.:P 

  • Upvote 2
Link to post
1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

It is also interesting that Church Apostles and other authorities ask for money for their books.  They are trying to profit on getting new members or member retention and making others pay for it.:P 

Whats bad is pastor Joel Osteen who owns a $10.6 million mansion and makes $40 million a year from his church and tens of millions more from his books which he promotes during sermons.

Link to post
2 hours ago, cinepro said:

He's really just trying to profit off the publication and dissemination of a book he wrote.  He's hardly the first person to do that (the the tradition of book authorship, publication and sale for profit must go back centuries).  Whether or not someone apostatizes after reading it is up to them; Runnells gets paid either way if they buy the book or make a donation.

Perhaps now, but iirc when he first made the choice to ask for money, it was simply to support him in his various responses to criticisms, publishing the CES letter in various languages free online, etc.. He said he was spending so much time and blowing through his own savings that he either would have to be supported by donations or quit his efforts.

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
1 hour ago, Calm said:

Perhaps now, but iirc when he first made the choice to ask for money, it was simply to support him in his various responses to criticisms, publishing the \CES letter in various languages free online, etc.. He said he was spending so much time and blowing through his own savings that he either would have to be supported by donations or quit his efforts. [Emphasis added by Kenngo1969.]

I know which one of those two options I would advise him to select. ;) 

Link to post

Apologies if this is off-topic, but I've said it before, and I think it bears repeating here.  Critics such as Mr. Runnells have the advantage over apologists and over the faithful when it comes to winning back the hearts and minds of the questioning. Rarely are sound-bite criticisms refutable by sound-bite responses: more often than not, to be effective, such refutation needs to be more in-depth.  However, skeptics are more likely to pay attention to (and to be swayed by) the sound-bite criticisms than they are to pay attention to (and to be swayed by) the in-depth responses.  Critics such as Mr. Runnells know this, and they take full advantage of it.

  • Upvote 1
Link to post

This is pastor Joel Osteen's house property which should be disconcerting to people who give religious people money. This is a pastor's house, not a professional athlete or Hollywood actor.  http://jameslparis.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341d71ad53ef01bb07d15a9f970d-pi

Edited by VideoGameJunkie
Link to post
23 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Apologies if this is off-topic, but I've said it before, and I think it bears repeating here.  Critics such as Mr. Runnells have the advantage over apologists and over the faithful when it comes to winning back the hearts and minds of the questioning. Rarely are sound-bite criticisms refutable by sound-bite responses: more often than not, to be effective, such refutation needs to be more in-depth.  However, skeptics are more likely to pay attention to (and to be swayed by) the sound-bite criticisms than they are to pay attention to (and to be swayed by) the in-depth responses.  Critics such as Mr. Runnells know this, and they take full advantage of it.

I agree with you.  When it takes ten to fifteen pages to respond to why JS married other men's wives or why the BofA is not really a translation like JS said it was, you are going to lose people.  This situation is not helped at all by the fact that there are multiple apologists theories for each of these issues.  I think most people are use to the truth much less convoluted than that.

Edited by sunstoned
  • Upvote 3
Link to post
4 hours ago, sunstoned said:

I agree with you.  When it takes ten to fifteen pages to respond to why JS married other men's wives or why the BofA is not really a translation like JS said it was, you are going to loose people.  This situation is not helped at all by the fact that there are multiple apologists theories for each of these issues.  I think most people are use to the truth much less convoluted than that.

Matt 16 [13] When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
[14] And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
[15] He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
[16] And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
[17] And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Similar Content

    • By Fair Dinkum
      While I'll assume no one in this board is unfamiliar with this subject, I'll still offer a short synopsis just in case. Back Story:  In 1985 the family of B.H. Roberts allowed a collection of his personal papers, still in the private hands of family members, to be published into book form.  The collection was published as "Studies of The Book of Mormon"
      In his papers were discovered notes of a special meeting that was held in early 1922 involving all member's of the First Presidency, The Quorum of the Twelve as well as the 7 Presidents of the Seventy, of which Robert's was a member.  Robert's had been given the assignment by Heber J. Grant to answer questions that had been sent in a letter to the church from a member seeking answers. 
      The questions were quite straight forward:
      when the Jews landed in the New World (600 B.C.) is not enough time to explain the diversity of native Indian languages. Horses were introduced to the Americas by the Spaniards, thus their appearance in the Book of Mormon is an anachronisms. The use of steel in the Book of Mormon is an anachronism. The use of scimitars (an arabian sword) in an anachronism. The use of silk was unknown to the Americas. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Studies_of_the_Book_of_Mormon
      Roberts concerns went unanswered by church authorities which caused him to try and resolve the difficulties himself.  The book represents his attempt to resolve those questions, he was unsuccessful in doing so. 
      Now a new master thesis has been written exploring secret meetings that took place following Robert's failed attempt to find satisfaction from his fellow church authorities.  Robert's formed this band of LDS intelligentsia in a further attempt to resolve his concerns and find answers to Book of Mormon problems.  While I've only just started to read it, this thesis is a fascinating behind the scenes look into the pre-correlation church.
      https://scholarworks.unr.edu/handle/11714/6712
      Despite his failures to resolve his concerns, we owe much to Roberts attempt, for it was from many of these questions that much of today's apologetic theories of a limited footprint, duel Cumorah's and acknowledgement of a pre-populated Asian immigrant America, to name just a few, have emerged.  Since the emergence of the internet, modern day apologetics has completely re-framed how the Book of Mormon is viewed from how it was interpreted in 1922. The problem is that much of the church still views the book in much the same way as it was seen in 1922.
      Mormon historians have debated whether the manuscript/book reflects Roberts's doubts or was a case of his playing a devils advocate. One interesting fact remains, per his instructions, his headstone has a Christian Cross on it, which was even unusual for that time and even more so for a former General Authority of the Church.
       
    • By blueglass
      Here is the 2019 end of year seminary assessment my kids received yesterday. Would love to hear your thoughts on the questions, the probable answers, and the doctrine taught.  Don't forget the last 4 questions pertaining to the Explain Doctrine section.  
      https://ibb.co/Dfz4JNr
      Read instructions before you start the test:
      Exam code: 8
      If you have difficulty taking the learning assessment in the traditional way, please talk with your teacher to figure out the best way to help you succeed.
      Use a no. 2 or HB pencil. Indicate your response by completely filling in the bubble on your answer sheet.
      Section name: Multiple Choice
        1.  Who will receive a place in a kingdom of glory? (1 mark)
      a) Every individual born into mortality
      b) All of God's children except the sons of perdition
      c) Only individuals who are worthy of exaltation
        2. Which of the following is a specific responsibility mentioned in the oath and covenant of the priesthood? (1 mar)
      a) To magnify their callings
      b) To pay a generous fast offering
      c) To not be idle
        3. Because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, in the Resurrection all individuals will receive ____ (1 mark)
      a) at least a terrestrial glory
      b) celestial glory
      c) glory according to the law they obeyed
        4. Which of the following blessings does God offer to those who keep the Word of Wisdom? (1 mark)
      a) They will not be burned at the Second Coming.
      b) Their bodies will be protected from all illness.
      c) They will receive wisdom and great treasures of knowledge.
        5. To be endowed in the temple means to receive ____ (1 mark)
      a) a guarantee of eternal life
      b) spiritual power and knowledge
      c) unique physical gifts from the Lord
        6. What does the existence of the precious truths in the Pearl of Great Pric teach us about the Prophet Joseph Smith? (1 mark)
      a) He no longer needed the power of God to help him translate.
      b) He was a prophet, seer, and revelator.
      c) He is the only prophet of this dispensation that can receive new scripture.
        7. As watchmen on the tower, modern prophets have a responsibility to ____ (1 mark)
      a) warn us of coming dangers
      b) stop Satan from tempting members of the Church
      c) change truth to fit modern times
        8. What is a bishop's or branch president's main responsibility when a teenager confesses sin to him? (1 mark)
      a) To prevent the person from being part of the Church
      b) To help the person receive forgiveness of the sins and regain peace of mind
      c) To inflict severe consequences and punishments from sinning
        9. Who visited the Prophet Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery in the Kirtland Temple to restore priesthood keys? (1 mark)
      a) Jeremiah, Isaiah, and Malachi
      b) Moses, Elias, and Elijah
      c) Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob
        10. According to the Doctrine and Covenants, what are tithing funds used for? (1 mark)
      a) They are the main fund the Church uses to support the poor and the needy.
      b) They are used to build temples and to accomplish the work of the Lord.
      c) They are used to pay ward and branch members for serving in the Church.
        11. While the Prophet Joseph Smith was falsely imprisoned in Liberty Jail, the Lord taught him that adversity and affliction
      (1 mark)
      a) will not occur if we trust in God
      b) are always a consequence of our poor choices
      c) can give us experience and be for our good
        12. Which of the following is a true statement about Relief Society? (1 mark)
      a) It was divinely organized to assist in the work of salvation.
      b) It was established during the trek west to help Saints who were suffering.
      c) It did not exist during the lifetime of the Prophet Joseph Smith.
        13. A man and a woman will receive eternal life and glory if _____ (1 mark)
      a) they love each other more than they love themselves
      b) they keep the new and everlasting covenant of marriage they made in the temple
      c) they are married in the temple
        14. Why do our ancestors who die without having a knowledge of the gospel need us to perform ordinances for them in the temple?
      a) Without these ordinances, our ancestors cannot progress toward eternal life. (1 mark)
      b) Without these ordinances, our ancestors cannot be saved in any kingdom of glory.
      c} Without these ordinances, our ancestors will not be resurrected.
        15. Marriage between one man and one woman is the Lord's standing law. Wen is the only time plural marriage is justified?
      a) Wen there are more women than men in the Church (1 mark)
      b) Whenever local laws and traditions allow members to practice it without breaking the law
      c) When the Lord authorizes it through the priesthood keys given to the President of the Church
        16. When the President of the Church dies, which quorum becomes the presiding quorum of the Church? (1 mark)
      a) The Quorum of the Twelve Apostles
      b) The Quorum of the First Presidency
      c) The Presiding Bishopric
        17. Which of the following shows the correct chronological order (first to last) of places the Saints were told to gather to? (1 mark}
      a) A stake in their homeland; Nauvoo, Illinois; Winter Quarters, Nebraska; Salt Lake City, Utah
      b) Nauvoo, Illinois; Winter Quarters, Nebraska; Salt Lake City, Utah; a stake in their homeland
      c) Winter Quarters, Nebraska; Nauvoo, Illinois; Salt Lake City, Utah; a stake in their homeland
        18. After the Savior visited the spirit world, what did righteous spirits there begin to do?
      a} They were all resurrected and began entering the highest kingdom of glory.
      b) They began performing ordinances for those who had not received them.
      c) They began teaching the gospel to those in spirit prison.
      (1 mark)
        19. According to Official Declaration 2, the Lord revealed that all worthy male Church members may ___ _ (1 mark)
      a) receive the ordinance of baptism
      b) serve a mission at age 18
      c) receive the priesthood and enjoy temple blessings
        20. What principle is emphasized in Doctrine and Covenants 121:36, 41-2? (1 mark)
      a) Priesthood holders can draw upon the powers of heaven only if they live righteously.
      b) lf we actively seek to learn through study and faith, our faith in Jesus Christ will increase.
      c) If we obey the Lord, He will always keep His promises to bless us.
        21. Which of the following accurately describes Heavenly Father? (1 mark)
      a) He is without feelings or emotions.
      b) He is a personage of Spirit and can dwell in us.
      c) He has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's.
        22. Which of the following is a requirement for receiving exaltation in the celestial kingdom? (1 mark)
      a) Bearing testimony of the Savior is all that is needed.
      b) Receiving a patriarchal blessing
      c) Receiving and being valiant in the testimony of Jesus Christ
        23. Of the following groups, who will inherit the celestial kingdom? (1 mark)
      a) All children who die before they reach the age of accountability
      b) All members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
      c) All individuals who have been baptized
        24. Which eternal truth corrects the following worldly philosophy: "God doesn't care how marriage is defined"? (1 mark)
      a) Ever individual born into morality is a child of God, and God loves each of us.
      b) Marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God.
      c) God changes truth to meet the circumstances and needs of His children.
        25. Which eternal truth corrects the following worldly philosophy: "It isn't as important for couples to have children today as it used to
      a) Marriage between a man and a woman is the ideal setting for children to be born, reared, and nurtured.
      b) God has commanded that the sacred powers of procreation are to be employed only between a man and a woman who are
      lawfully wedded as husband and wife.
      c) God's commandment fr husbands and wives to have children remains in force today.
        26. Which eternal truth corrects the following worldly philosophy: "As long as two individuals love each other, physical intimacy is
      acceptable"? (1 mark)
      a) Marriage between a man and a woman is the ideal setting for children to be born, reared, and nurtured.
      b) Marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God.
      c) God has commanded that the sacred powers of procreation are to be employed only between a man and a woman who are
      lawfully wedded as husband and wife.
        27. Which eternal truth corrects the following worldly philosophy: "As governments continue to redefine marriage, God's definition of
      marriage will change to reflect the values of modern society"? (1 mark)
      a) Marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God.
      b) God has commanded that the sacred powers of procreation are to be employed only between a man and a woman who are
      lawfully wedded as husband and wife.
      c) Changes in the civil law do not change the moral law that God has established.
        28. Which eternal truth corrects the following worldly philosophy: "The only purpose of marriage is for adults to find fulfillment and
      happiness"? (1 mark)
      a) Marriage between a man and a woman is the ideal setting for children to be born, reared, and nurtured.
      b) Marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God.
      c) God has commanded that the sacred powers of procreation are to be employed only between a man and a woman who are
      lawfully wedded as husband and wife.
      Section name: Explain Doctrine _
      Instructions: Write your answer on a piece of paper. Compare your response with the correct answer received from your teacher. After self-grading the explain-doctrine question, bubble in your answer sheet.
      Self-grade your answer for each question:
      a. Yes, I explained this in my response.
      b. No, I left this out of my response.
        29. What is an example of a truth that was restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith? Explain why the truth you chose can help you receive eternal life. (1 mark)
        30. What is an example of an ordinance that was restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith? Explain why the ordinance you chose can help you receive eternal life. (1 mark)
        31. What is an example of priesthood authority that was restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith? Explain why this authority of the priesthood can help you receive eternal life. (1 mark)
        32. Share your personal thoughts on the importance of the Prophet Joseph Smith. (1 mark)
    • By blueglass
      Really impressed with Kate Holbrook's interview with Terryl Givens.  She's thoughtful, candid, and inspiring as she speaks about her persistence to get a PhD and work full time for the church as a manger of church history.  She's working on a project with Lisa Tate on the history of the young women's organization.  
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2G7k1ggz7k&amp;feature=em-uploademail
      One thing I caught that I hadn't heard before was when Terryl asks her about whether she felt a sense of loss and a sense of jubilation when studying the history of the RS.  Joseph envisioned a more collaborative relationship with the male priesthood, more autonomy, abundance of spiritual gifts, authority to administer ordinances including healing by the laying of hands.  Kate responds that she understands the hyperfocus on this time period, but she feels there is a lost opportunity in recognizing the accomplishments of the women of the 20th century - she then backtracks a bit and says:
      "I don't want to say that their isn't a difference, between - a time when a woman was able to say I have this terrific idea she's say the General RS president and she goes and talks to the president of the church about it.  That is certainly different than now, when she goes and talks to someone in the presiding bishopric, and it has to go through several levels to even get to the president.  There is a loss, and there is a difference."
      I had no idea that the General RS president did not have direct access to the quorum of the 12, and first presidency?  Why in 3 heavens does the general RS president still have such an auxiliary level of access to the presiding apostolic quorum, access to financial influence through Pres Bishopric perhaps, but no real budget to work with?  No seat on the correlation committee?  
      Kate has a great story about how Ardeth Greene Kapp (General YW president 84-92') while receiving a downpour of revelation would use innovative, clever ways and technology to push the ideas upward through the hierarchy.  
    • By FearlessFixxer
      http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/commentary/2017/11/26/commentary-the-gaslighting-within-mormonism-must-stop/
    • By canard78
      Elder Maynes CES devotional went into extensive detail on the first vision accounts last night. 
      Starts at 35:20:
      https://www.lds.org/broadcasts/the-truth-restored?lang=eng&_r=1
      I'm delighted that the essays and these topics are gradually becoming more mainstream. My mum (a primary president) even plans to use parts of the vision essay in sharing time this month (it's the "truth restored" section of the manual). I'll share this talk and article with her too as it's got some useful suggestions.
      A couple of questions: 
      - He said Joseph "wrote or dictated" the four accounts. Is that the best description of how the official account was written? I'll have to look up the Bushman reference I'm thinking of as I seem to remember him saying somewhere that the official version was a bit more of a co-creation or collaboration with Rigdon. I might be misremembering that so will try to check it.
      - He also says that it's the best documented vision in history. I wondered what the other contenders would be. 
      Any other thoughts?
×
×
  • Create New...