JLHPROF Posted July 25, 2016 Posted July 25, 2016 So, without opening yet another polygamy thread, I'd like to make a thread on the validity of sealings. I was just reading on another board that shall remain nameless. A thread on sealing cancellations spoke of people refusing to give permission for an ex to be resealed and then it being done. It spoke of people who had been made exceptions to Church policies. It spoke of polyandrous, polygynous and all kinds of sealings. But I am not looking to get into personal stories here. Looking for a more doctrinal approach please. 1. What in your opinion will make a sealing valid in eternity? 2. What in your opinion will make a sealing invalid in eternity? 3. Are ALL legitimately performed sealings going to be honored by God? (Polygyny, Polyandry, Law of Adoption, Servant - ie,Jane Manning etc) 4. Assuming worthiness all around, is it the authority that binds and does that mean any worthy sealing will have to be honored? 5. What are we to make of the idea that (as Brigham said) the entire human family is all out of order, or the idea that much correction to sealings will be required? So, what are your thoughts on sealings? Will God honor all sealings performed by authority for worthy people? Is worthiness all that is required? Are we making a mess of our eternal families so that God will have to fix things? 1
CV75 Posted July 25, 2016 Posted July 25, 2016 57 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: So, without opening yet another polygamy thread, I'd like to make a thread on the validity of sealings. I was just reading on another board that shall remain nameless. A thread on sealing cancellations spoke of people refusing to give permission for an ex to be resealed and then it being done. It spoke of people who had been made exceptions to Church policies. It spoke of polyandrous, polygynous and all kinds of sealings. But I am not looking to get into personal stories here. Looking for a more doctrinal approach please. 1. What in your opinion will make a sealing valid in eternity? 2. What in your opinion will make a sealing invalid in eternity? 3. Are ALL legitimately performed sealings going to be honored by God? (Polygyny, Polyandry, Law of Adoption, Servant - ie,Jane Manning etc) 4. Assuming worthiness all around, is it the authority that binds and does that mean any worthy sealing will have to be honored? 5. What are we to make of the idea that (as Brigham said) the entire human family is all out of order, or the idea that much correction to sealings will be required? So, what are your thoughts on sealings? Will God honor all sealings performed by authority for worthy people? Is worthiness all that is required? Are we making a mess of our eternal families so that God will have to fix things? 1. What in your opinion will make a sealing valid in eternity? That it is provided by the Holy Spirit of promise, is not revoked by that same power, and those who receive it are just and true. (D&C 132; 76:53). 2. What in your opinion will make a sealing invalid in eternity? That those who receive it are not just and true, and fall when the hour of temptation (D&C 124:124). That said, all sinners who have received this sealing can repent and be willing to take upon them the name of Christ and keep His commandments. 3. Are ALL legitimately performed sealings going to be honored by God? (Polygyny, Polyandry, Law of Adoption, Servant - ie,Jane Manning etc). Yes, in the way that they were intended to lead to in their operations within the Church of the Firstborn. 4. Assuming worthiness all around, is it the authority that binds and does that mean any worthy sealing will have to be honored? Yes, as long as the recipients honor it as well, after all they can do. 5. What are we to make of the idea that (as Brigham said) the entire human family is all out of order, or the idea that much correction to sealings will be required? See #3. Are we making a mess of our eternal families so that God will have to fix things? I think the mess we make falls outside of the Holy Spirit of promise but in the long-run (in the spirit of the redemption for the dead) no one will be denied the blessing given and received under the right terms and conditions.
theplains Posted July 25, 2016 Posted July 25, 2016 Is there an official LDS teaching which states that a sealing can be cancelled so that a woman can be sealed to another man? Thanks, Jim
JLHPROF Posted July 25, 2016 Author Posted July 25, 2016 5 minutes ago, theplains said: Is there an official LDS teaching which states that a sealing can be cancelled so that a woman can be sealed to another man? Yes, sort of. Scripture allows for apostolic authority to loose in heaven as well as to bind/seal in heaven. The conditions under which this is done and its requirements have changed through history, and would probably cause some disagreement, but it is absolutely an official LDS doctrine.
ksfisher Posted July 25, 2016 Posted July 25, 2016 1 hour ago, JLHPROF said: Are we making a mess of our eternal families so that God will have to fix things? Just a quick comment about your last line. (All the rest seems very complicated and seems to deal with things that we just don't have answers to). I don't believe that God will just step in and fix things. That doesn't seem to be the pattern he uses now in working witn his children, and I don't believe it will be in the next either. I believe the principles taught in the story of the Brother of Jared and the boats that needed light will still apply in the next life. Yes, some earthly sealing situations seem like a mess. I believe that if we went to the Lord and said "fix them" that he would say "What will ye that I should do?" The Lord is always the master teacher, and we are always his disciples. I'm sure that we will be able to, by following his teachings and working together, come to a solution that he will bless. 2
Calm Posted July 25, 2016 Posted July 25, 2016 I am with ksfisher and think most of the questions require speculation that I am not incline to doing. The mess question though.... We are making a mess of our lives. Life is complicated, every action we take sets off infinite ripples. Why would this area of life be any different? God will provide what is needed in one way or another to resolve all messiness into God's order. I suspect if we were to look at God's order it would seem totally chaotic to our minds. 2
Atheist Mormon Posted July 26, 2016 Posted July 26, 2016 4 hours ago, JLHPROF said: What are your thoughts about sealings Sorry to be direct......but.... It is highly absurd.....since we are going to be dead...... it means nothing.......... 1
JLHPROF Posted July 26, 2016 Author Posted July 26, 2016 31 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said: Sorry to be direct......but.... It is highly absurd.....since we are going to be dead...... it means nothing.......... No, what's absurd is thinking this life is it.
The Nehor Posted July 26, 2016 Posted July 26, 2016 7 hours ago, JLHPROF said: So, without opening yet another polygamy thread, I'd like to make a thread on the validity of sealings. I was just reading on another board that shall remain nameless. A thread on sealing cancellations spoke of people refusing to give permission for an ex to be resealed and then it being done. It spoke of people who had been made exceptions to Church policies. It spoke of polyandrous, polygynous and all kinds of sealings. But I am not looking to get into personal stories here. Looking for a more doctrinal approach please. 1. What in your opinion will make a sealing valid in eternity? 2. What in your opinion will make a sealing invalid in eternity? 3. Are ALL legitimately performed sealings going to be honored by God? (Polygyny, Polyandry, Law of Adoption, Servant - ie,Jane Manning etc) 4. Assuming worthiness all around, is it the authority that binds and does that mean any worthy sealing will have to be honored? 5. What are we to make of the idea that (as Brigham said) the entire human family is all out of order, or the idea that much correction to sealings will be required? So, what are your thoughts on sealings? Will God honor all sealings performed by authority for worthy people? Is worthiness all that is required? Are we making a mess of our eternal families so that God will have to fix things? 1. The covenants being kept. 2. The covenants not being kept. 3. Yes, but the blessings given will be what God wants them to have and therefore what they truly want. 4. They will all be honored even if in some cases the sealings of spouses and parents and children are discarded. 5. That is a correct assessment. It will be a mess but God knows the end from the beginning and has decided the mess is worth it. 1
mfbukowski Posted July 26, 2016 Posted July 26, 2016 7 hours ago, JLHPROF said: So, without opening yet another polygamy thread, I'd like to make a thread on the validity of sealings. I was just reading on another board that shall remain nameless. A thread on sealing cancellations spoke of people refusing to give permission for an ex to be resealed and then it being done. It spoke of people who had been made exceptions to Church policies. It spoke of polyandrous, polygynous and all kinds of sealings. But I am not looking to get into personal stories here. Looking for a more doctrinal approach please. 1. What in your opinion will make a sealing valid in eternity? 2. What in your opinion will make a sealing invalid in eternity? 3. Are ALL legitimately performed sealings going to be honored by God? (Polygyny, Polyandry, Law of Adoption, Servant - ie,Jane Manning etc) 4. Assuming worthiness all around, is it the authority that binds and does that mean any worthy sealing will have to be honored? 5. What are we to make of the idea that (as Brigham said) the entire human family is all out of order, or the idea that much correction to sealings will be required? So, what are your thoughts on sealings? Will God honor all sealings performed by authority for worthy people? Is worthiness all that is required? Are we making a mess of our eternal families so that God will have to fix things? Anyone who thinks there are fixed rules is wrong. That's what I think. This is not the IRS. There are not hundreds of pages of codes about nuances and exceptions. This is God and his children. It will all work out- there's nothing to be concerned about. 4
The Nehor Posted July 26, 2016 Posted July 26, 2016 (edited) 3 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said: Sorry to be direct......but.... It is highly absurd.....since we are going to be dead...... it means nothing.......... I plan to die but I also plan to get better later. Edited July 26, 2016 by The Nehor 2
mfbukowski Posted July 26, 2016 Posted July 26, 2016 9 minutes ago, The Nehor said: I plan to get die but I also plant to get better later. Wow I can't figure out if that is a typo or profundity. You know, like we are planted, awaiting to be resurrected? Nah, Typo.
The Nehor Posted July 26, 2016 Posted July 26, 2016 2 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Wow I can't figure out if that is a typo or profundity. You know, like we are planted, awaiting to be resurrected? Nah, Typo. It is after midnight and my auto correct is having fun with me. 1
Kenngo1969 Posted July 26, 2016 Posted July 26, 2016 Sealings? I'm strongly in favor of them, particularly my own, preferably to someone to whom I'm not already related in addition to the sealings I've undergone to people to whom I'm both related and sealed. (It's almost midnight. That's the limit of my substantive participation at the moment. Catch me tomorrow after a good night's sleep and Ii'll probably have more to say. )
Eek! Posted July 26, 2016 Posted July 26, 2016 (edited) 11 hours ago, JLHPROF said: So, what are your thoughts on sealings? Will God honor all sealings performed by authority for worthy people? Is worthiness all that is required? Are we making a mess of our eternal families so that God will have to fix things? Since you asked for our thoughts on the subject, these responses will all be my opinion, with no other claims intended. 1. What in your opinion will make a sealing valid in eternity? The Lord said to Joseph Smith, "Will I receive at your hands that which I have not appointed?" I believe that means Joseph could not expect to "choose" any woman on his own whim, but rather his wives would be those who had been already "appointed" to be his wives, presumably in the pre-existence. This makes sense if "eternal" means "without beginning and without end"... how could a marriage that is "eternal" in the sense of "without beginning and without end" have its beginning on a wedding day?? And presumably this extends to the rest of us as well - that any "eternal" relationship is a continuation of one that was already in existence. So, in my opinion, what makes a sealing valid in eternity is, that it is the continuation of a relationship that was already in existence. I believe this is what the Holy Spirit of Promise is attesting to... that these two people were Promised they would reunite and continue their relationship, and so their marriage is that Promise being kept. 2. What in your opinion will make a sealing invalid in eternity? If two people are sealed and their marriage is not "that which [God has] appointed", then it is invalid in eternity. Just to be clear, I do not believe that failing to be sealed to someone "appointed unto you" in this life means that you drew the short straw as far as eternity goes. I expect the Promise to be immune to the circumstances of mortality. I don't think that failure to hook up down here will matter in the slightest in the long run. This is based on the premise that God is good, God is fair, and God is no respecter of persons. 3. Are ALL legitimately performed sealings going to be honored by God? (Polygyny, Polyandry, Law of Adoption, Servant - ie,Jane Manning etc) Only the sealings that are what God has already appointed would be honored by Him. Neither God nor man are bound by technicalities in my opinion. 4. Assuming worthiness all around, is it the authority that binds and does that mean any worthy sealing will have to be honored? There is no "binding" in any sense that would imply any coercion, it is only free will. It is the Law of Affinity in action, like when the Promise is fulfilled - that is free will manifesting, perhaps against the odds. There are no places in any of the levels of Heaven where people are "bound" in relationships against their will. That would be Hell. 5. What are we to make of the idea that (as Brigham said) the entire human family is all out of order, or the idea that much correction to sealings will be required? I do not know what The Pattern is. I think it might include a web of intersecting soul groups... Joseph Smith being an example of a very advanced soul who re-connected with a lot of the people in his soul group. I believe the Lord's house is a house of order, but that it is a natural order, not an imposed one. All of the above is imo, ime, ymmv, etc. Edited July 26, 2016 by Eek! 1
Kenngo1969 Posted July 26, 2016 Posted July 26, 2016 4 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said: Sorry to be direct......but.... It is highly absurd.....since we are going to be dead...... it means nothing.......... No problem. I appreciate your directness. Here is my equally-direct response to your directness: 1
mfbukowski Posted July 26, 2016 Posted July 26, 2016 30 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said: Sealings? I'm strongly in favor of them, particularly my own, preferably to someone to whom I'm not already related in addition to the sealings I've undergone to people to whom I'm both related and sealed. See that's the problem! You're just too darn picky! 1
halconero Posted July 26, 2016 Posted July 26, 2016 (edited) 13 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said: Sorry to be direct......but.... It is highly absurd.....since we are going to be dead...... it means nothing.......... Kay. I don't mind alternative contributions to the board, but the semi-regular "it doesn't matter cus God doesn't exist" dealio is getting old on a board that generally presumes the existence of God. edit: a word Edited July 26, 2016 by halconero 4
Kenngo1969 Posted July 26, 2016 Posted July 26, 2016 3 hours ago, mfbukowski said: See that's the problem! You're just too darn picky! I know, right? I have exactly, precisely one (not 1.5, and not 1.37518625, but one) non-negotiable, indispensable qualification in a potential mate: She must reciprocate my interest (or I hers)!
mfbukowski Posted July 26, 2016 Posted July 26, 2016 5 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said: I know, right? I have exactly, precisely one (not 1.5, and not 1.37518625, but one) non-negotiable, indispensable qualification in a potential mate: She must reciprocate my interest (or I hers)! Not to mention that's a good way to keep out if jail!
mfbukowski Posted July 26, 2016 Posted July 26, 2016 8 hours ago, halconero said: Kay. I don't mind alternative contributions to the board, but the semi-regular "it doesn't matter cus God doesn't exist" dealio is getting old on a board that generally presumes the faithfulness of God. Polly wanna cracker? Even parrots can repeat the same phrase over and over
JLHPROF Posted July 26, 2016 Author Posted July 26, 2016 9 hours ago, Eek! said: 3. Are ALL legitimately performed sealings going to be honored by God? (Polygyny, Polyandry, Law of Adoption, Servant - ie,Jane Manning etc) Only the sealings that are what God has already appointed would be honored by Him. Neither God nor man are bound by technicalities in my opinion. This could be the real kicker on this subject. Is priesthood authority and worthiness enough to make a sealing honored if it goes against God's appointment? If God doesn't approve of polygyny, will he honor polygynous sealings? If God doesn't approve of polyandry, will he honor polyandrous sealings? If God doesn't distinguish between race, will he honor the sealing Jane Manning received to Joseph Smith? If God doesn't approve of SSM, would he honor a SSM sealing in the future? If we get a divorce and cancellation for reasons other than what God has established, would he ignore that sealing covenant or accept a new sealing? Assuming worthiness and correct authority, is that enough to guarantee the enduring nature of a sealing?
Atheist Mormon Posted July 26, 2016 Posted July 26, 2016 13 hours ago, JLHPROF said: No, what's absurd is thinking this life is it. Well, it is "Absurd" life..... Otherwise I wouldn't be here to be able to tell you.
Atheist Mormon Posted July 26, 2016 Posted July 26, 2016 10 hours ago, The Nehor said: I plan to die but I also plan to get better later. Nehor....... This is the only shot to living you got....Make the best of it....Live every day like a free gift.....
The Nehor Posted July 26, 2016 Posted July 26, 2016 13 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said: Nehor....... This is the only shot to living you got....Make the best of it....Live every day like a free gift..... Nah, I am immortal. I think I live my life pretty well though.
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