Reluctant Polygamist: Preface

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, Meg Stout said:

The most germane population includes Elvira's progenitors and her descendants. In none of those cases prior to 2000 of which I am personally familiar was there a history of initial infertility or miscarriage.

Only in part is that true as there are other causes for infertilty and miscarriage besides genetics, environment playing a big cause.

[Calm]

29 minutes ago, Meg Stout said:

To clarify, this was not a conversation. It was a presentation of Greg's book to one of the study groups he holds in his home on roughly a monthly basis. So there were roughly three or four dozen people hearing this in addition to me.

I didn't attend Greg's presentation regarding his book at MHA. I suspect the manner in which the Church handles history in the past couple of years may have come up in that hour-long presentation as well.

When reporting something you heard, then simply make sure that you clarify it is your memory and thus interpretation of what was reported, giving the context especially identifying whether the person was speaking for himself, quoting someone else, paraphasingsomeone else or giving an opinion. 

At this point it appears that you are paraphasing what you remember of Prince's opinion, which may be based on evidence, but could be purely mindreading.  This is very different than the impression you gave when first citing it.

[JulieM]

2 hours ago, Meg Stout said:

In the case of Joseph Smith's marriages to women who were not Emma Hale, we have a sufficiently small number that statistics can't be conclusive. Yet with the exception of the disputed pregnancy of Eliza Snow, which her poetry suggests might not have been engendered by Joseph Smith, none of the wives who didn't have husbands conceived during Joseph's lifetime.

You can't possibly know whether or not this is true.

[Meg Stout]

25 minutes ago, JulieM said:

You can't possibly know whether or not this is true.

Other than Eliza Snow, none of Joseph Smith's plural wives who did not have a legal husband appears to have conceived during Joseph's lifetime.

[JulieM]

4 minutes ago, Meg Stout said:

Other than Eliza Snow, none of Joseph Smith's plural wives who did not have a legal husband appears to have conceived during Joseph's lifetime.

You don't know that is true.  There is such little written by the women who were Joseph's wives during that time and so much secrecy.  You seem to be confusing conceiving with going full term and giving birth (and I agree that so far no living child has been determined.) 

You need to stop stating things as facts when they are only your opinions.

Edited June 24, 2016 by JulieM

[Meg Stout]

51 minutes ago, JulieM said:

You don't know that is true... You need to stop stating things as facts when they are only your opinions.

Intriguingly, I have seen the other side, where people assert with confidence that there were many miscarriages/abortions, explaining why there are no living children. I haven't been on this forum long, so I will have to trust that you are as assiduous to point out to them the need to stop stating things as facts when they are only opinions.

[JulieM]

6 minutes ago, Meg Stout said:

Intriguingly, I have seen the other side, where people assert with confidence that there were many miscarriages/abortions, explaining why there are no living children

CFR

(Assert = State as fact or belief confidently or forcefully.)

Who here has stated that they know there were abortions or miscarriages  (for Joseph's wives)?

Edited June 24, 2016 by JulieM

[jkwilliams]

12 minutes ago, JulieM said:

CFR

(Assert = State as fact or belief confidently or forcefully.)

Who here has stated that they know there were abortions or miscarriages  (for Joseph's wives)?

There are hostile secondhand sources who testified about abortions and attempts to prevent pregnancy (Sarah Pratt, for example), but there is no firsthand testimony that these things happened. Is it possible? Sure, but there's no solid evidence, and that requires us to refrain from making confident assertions of any kind.

[JulieM]

10 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

There are hostile secondhand sources who testified about abortions and attempts to prevent pregnancy (Sarah Pratt, for example), but there is no firsthand testimony that these things happened. Is it possible? Sure, but there's no solid evidence, and that requires us to refrain from making confident assertions of any kind.

Yes, I know this and have read the sources.

Meg was specifically discussing Joseph's wives above.  I've asked her to supply references where anyone has stated as fact that there were abortions or miscarriages to explain lack of children.  Or even where anyone posted with certainty for other women and wives in Nauvoo.

[jkwilliams]

19 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Yes, I know this and have read the sources.

Meg was specifically discussing Joseph's wives above.  I've asked her to supply references where anyone has stated as fact that there were abortions or miscarriages to explain lack of children.  Or even where anyone posted with certainty for other women and wives in Nauvoo.

I understood what you were getting at. I haven't seen anyone assert, let alone with confidence, that there were abortions or contraception involved.

[Meg Stout]

20 minutes ago, JulieM said:

Yes, I know this and have read the sources.

Meg was specifically discussing Joseph's wives above.  I've asked her to supply references where anyone has stated as fact that there were abortions or miscarriages to explain lack of children.  Or even where anyone posted with certainty for other women and wives in Nauvoo.

I haven't been on this forum long enough to see if things like that are stated here. I have seen them elsewhere, specifically in response to my Faithful Joseph series. Glad to know that you would push back on that as well.

[JulieM]

25 minutes ago, Meg Stout said:

I haven't been on this forum long enough to see if things like that are stated here. I have seen them elsewhere, specifically in response to my Faithful Joseph series. 

You have a CFR to support your statement below with references:

"Intriguingly, I have seen the other side, where people assert with confidence that there were many miscarriages/abortions, explaining why there are no living children. I haven't been on this forum long, so I will have to trust that you are as assiduous to point out to them the need to stop stating things as facts when they are only opinions."

Who here has stated as fact that wives had abortions or miscarriages to explain Joseph's lack of children?

Supply the quote or withdraw the accusation. (Or are you withdrawing it above.  If so, state that clearly).

Edited June 24, 2016 by JulieM

[Meg Stout]

31 minutes ago, JulieM said:

You have a CFR to support your statement below with references:

"Intriguingly, I have seen the other side, where people assert with confidence that there were many miscarriages/abortions, explaining why there are no living children. I haven't been on this forum long, so I will have to trust that you are as assiduous to point out to them the need to stop stating things as facts when they are only opinions."

Who here has stated as fact that wives had abortions or miscarriages to explain Joseph's lack of children?

Supply the quote or withdraw the accusation. (Or are you withdrawing it above.  If so, state that clearly).

Hi JulieM,

I am not stating that I have seen that assertion here at MormonDialogue. I would have to search the comments over at M* to locate the instance I am remembering.

[JulieM]

25 minutes ago, Meg Stout said:

Hi JulieM,

I am not stating that I have seen that assertion here at MormonDialogue. I would have to search the comments over at M* to locate the instance I am remembering.

If it wasn't posted here, but in some random comment over on one of your many blog entries, don't expect me to see it and address it.  

You stated 

"I haven't been on this forum long, so I will have to trust that you are as assiduous to point out to them the need to stop stating things as facts when they are only opinions."

Again, I've seen no one here (on the threads discussing this topic) post that they know any of Joseph's wives had abortions or miscarriages (while carrying Joseph's child).

Edited June 24, 2016 by JulieM

[stemelbow]

Going with the spirit of meg here: Maybe in Nauvoo they invented the morning after pill.  And after Nauvoo the pill was lost to mankind.  So for the most part, the sex in Nauvoo didn't produce children unless it was in non polygamy married relations, save for a few exceptions wherein the pill didn't work or the woman didnt' want to take it. 

[Meg Stout]

4 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Going with the spirit of meg here: Maybe in Nauvoo they invented the morning after pill.  And after Nauvoo the pill was lost to mankind.  So for the most part, the sex in Nauvoo didn't produce children unless it was in non polygamy married relations, save for a few exceptions wherein the pill didn't work or the woman didnt' want to take it. 

Actually, Catherine Laur mentioned medicine and medicine was again mentioned in the testimony regarding Mary Clift and Gustavus Hills. Queen Anne's Lace is pretty effective at inducing menstruation. I can credit Bennett knowing this. I don't credit Joseph using QAL.

[stemelbow]

8 minutes ago, Meg Stout said:

Actually, Catherine Laur mentioned medicine and medicine was again mentioned in the testimony regarding Mary Clift and Gustavus Hills. Queen Anne's Lace is pretty effective at inducing menstruation. I can credit Bennett knowing this. I don't credit Joseph using QAL.

So then why all the fuss about so many of these marriages were not consummated?  How would we know?

[Calm]

14 minutes ago, Meg Stout said:

Actually, Catherine Laur mentioned medicine and medicine was again mentioned in the testimony regarding Mary Clift and Gustavus Hills. 

Quote or link to testimony please.

[juliann]

2 hours ago, Meg Stout said:

Intriguingly, I have seen the other side, where people assert with confidence that there were many miscarriages/abortions, explaining why there are no living children. I haven't been on this forum long, so I will have to trust that you are as assiduous to point out to them the need to stop stating things as facts when they are only opinions.

As I said before, who are you arguing with? Who is "them?" You seem to be having a strawman debate with nonexistent posters because we do not see much, if anything, about miscarriages and abortions on this board. Take some time to investigate the forum you are in. And then answer what are now becoming CFRs. That means that if you continue to ignore the requests for documentation the mods will step in.

[juliann]

7 hours ago, Meg Stout said:

   Yet with the exception of the disputed pregnancy of Eliza Snow, which her poetry suggests might not have been engendered by Joseph Smith,  

 

 

Just. STOP. Here is another CFR. I've seen the liberties you have taken with her poetry,  insisting ...with no training or original document... that she scratched out and changed letters to enable your slandering her. 

 

[ALarson]

14 minutes ago, juliann said:

Just. STOP. Here is another CFR. I've seen the liberties you have taken with her poetry,  insisting ...with no training or original document... that she scratched out and changed letters to enable your slandering her. 

I had to stop reading over this thread and Meg's posts because the CFR's I could have requested were piling up.  It's astounding what she states as fact and then just seems to ignore requests for documents or references.

.

 

Edited June 24, 2016 by ALarson

[jkwilliams]

FYI, here is the relevant testimony from the Nauvoo High Council minutes regarding Mary Clift and Gustavus Hills.

Quote

 

Sept 3rd 1842

Council met according to adjournment.

A Charge was preferred against Gustavus Hills by Elijah Everett, one of the teachers of the Church, for illicit intercourse with a certain woman by the name of Mary Clift, by which she is with child, and for teaching the said Mary Clift that the heads of the Church practiced such conduct & that the time would come when men would have more wives than one &c.

Mary Clift did not appear & upon vote it was adjourned untill 4 o'clock P.M. tomorrow. ...

Sept 4th 1842

Council met according to adjournment. Joshua Smith being absent, Elias Higbee was appointed in his place. 

The case of Gustavus Hills was called. President A. Cowles spoke by way of address to the Council upon the subject.

The affidavit of Mary Clift, dated 29th Aug 1842, as also one of Sept 4th 1842, were read

Esther Smith gave evidence that defendant told her it was lawful for people to hold illicit intercourse, if they only held their peace & that it was agreeable to the practice of some of the leading men or heads of the Church. It took place the Thursday before the Choir was dismissed, in the upper part of Town, near the Bluff, at 9 O'clok in the evening--she was going home--he offered & went to accompany her and this took place upon the way--she further testified that Mary Clift joined the Choir at Br Joseph Smiths.

Defendant then produced a paper containing questions put to & answers given by Mary Clift this morning, after her deposition was taken by alderman Spencer, which went together with aforesaid depositions, to prove his guilt--several witnesses were afterwards called upon in his behalf but none gave any evidence that he was innocent

The Councillors then spoke according to order ... after which Prest Cowles & Rich gave their judgment, in which the entire Council concurred by vote--that is by disfellowshiping Gustavus Hills.

 

 

 

[jkwilliams]

I hate to add another CFR, but I found this tidbit from Meg while looking for information about Mary Clift:

Quote

 

In the case of Mary Clift, Gustavus Hills only slept with her the one time, and she was given the contraceptive medicine, and she still conceived. So this matter of people conceiving children when sex happens isn’t just something particular to my forebears.

 

Do you have a source for that? 

[Nevo]

30 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I hate to add another CFR, but I found this tidbit from Meg while looking for information about Mary Clift:

Do you have a source for that? 

I think this is what Meg is referring to:

Quote

Hills’s questioning of Clift is dated "Hancock [County] State of Illinois Sept[ember] 4th 1842." He asked her when she stayed overnight at his house, to which she answered, "Near the middle of Jan[uar]y." She said she accompanied him home on three successive nights from the "singing schools" he taught, where she must have been a student. "The first two nights [she] slept [in bed] with [his] wife [and] the next night with [the] children." 

"Q[uestion][:] Where & when did I talk of pluralty of wives?
[Answer][:] At your house after you seduced me."

"Did I offer you medicine for abortion before you asked for it[?]
[Answer][:] You did offer it."

"Did we have illicit connexion more than once[?]
[Answer][:] no." 

"Deponent saith that the night of their connexion … was a cold windy night" 

— John S. Dinger, ed., The Nauvoo City and High Council Minutes (Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 2011), Kindle locations 11898-11908 (entry for 4 September 1842, note 65). 

 

Edited June 24, 2016 by Nevo

[jkwilliams]

3 minutes ago, Nevo said:

I think this is what Meg is referring to:

 

Thanks.