Joseph Smith's Polygamy

[Teancum]

So we are supposed to look at the examples of groups of apostates, without authority and devoid of the Spirit, to understand why and how plural marriage practiced under the proper authority and with the empowering aid of the Spirit can't work?

Why is Jospeph smith so special that he was the only one to have God sanctioned polygamy? Why reject it from others who claim God told them to do it....both for such in the Mormon tradition or from other odd sects.

[ttribe]

Then what is the point that I missed (I looked but could not find)?

 

I expanded in a subsequent post.

[jkwilliams]

Double Standard how so?

 

What ever the church does its in a losing situation with some people.

 

Well, you've already been wrong about me today.

 

Someone reminded me of that time years ago that you and I were invited to another board (I think it had something to do with American Idol, which is kind of embarrassing) because some Pastor guy was saying really awful, inaccurate, and bigoted things about the church. It was right at the time my faith was falling apart, but I went over there because I hate seeing bigots and liars attack the church. Do you remember that I had to keep apologizing for you because you went in guns blazing? I thought about that today because I wonder how much either of us has changed since then. 

[Sanpitch]

Joseph Smith is the only one in the history of us humans that has been commanded by God or at least the holy spirit to marry more than one wife that we know of.   That is strange.  Now think that one over.  Or give an opposing argument.

Edited August 13, 2015 by Sanpitch

[jkwilliams]

So we are supposed to look at the examples of groups of apostates, without authority and devoid of the Spirit, to understand why and how plural marriage practiced under the proper authority and with the empowering aid of the Spirit can't work?

 

Even under the authority and with the spirit in the 1800s, it was still kind of a mess. I read the accounts of my ancestors' experiences with polygamy and there is a great deal of suffering and heartbreak. It's not just the FLDS. 

[Calm]

I haven't read the book. What I am responding to is the article she wrote in which she wrote.

.

Did you read the whole presentation or just what I posted to get people interested?

[TheSkepticChristian]

So, to expand just a bit, I'll say this - I have yet to see any large group attempt to practice polygamy as a matter of a philosophical or theological tenant where it didn't eventually devolve into serious abuses, especially related to teenage girls.  If polygamy is divinely sanctioned, I'm all but decided that it can't be practiced in mortality for any extended period of time as a matter of institutional practice without costs that outweigh its benefits.  Furthermore, as a father to a daughter I can't see any situation where I'd want her to be one among many (or even several) in terms of the number of wivehttp://www.ncadv.org/learn/statisticssin a marital relationship.  My hope for her is she can find someone to be her best friend whose romantic and spousal attentions are focused on her alone.

 

Name a large group (perhaps a church) were no member experiences abuse in their monogamous marriage.

 

Just look at the statistics of domestic violence, and the cases of adultery are much higher. 

 

1 in 3 women and 1 in 4 men have been victims of [some form of] physical violence by an intimate partner within their lifetime

http://www.ncadv.org/learn/statistics

 

Bytheway, there is no evidence that Joseph Smith lived with his wives as husband and wife, and there is no evidence that Joseph Smith hurt one of his wives,  I don't understand why people think polygamy is an evil thing. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ci6t5jGR_Zo

 

Edited August 14, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[jkwilliams]

Name a large group (perhaps a church) were no member experiences abuse in their monogamous marriage.

 

Bytheway, there is no evidence that Joseph Smith lived with his wives as husband and wife, and there is no evidence that Joseph Smith hurt one of his wives,  I don't understand why people think polygamy is an evil thing. 

 

 

Has anyone said it's evil? 

[TheSkepticChristian]

Has anyone said it's evil? 

 

Well, ttribe thinks polygamy is not cool, and he is saying that polygamy is abuse. 

 

I edited post 57, please read it. 

[jkwilliams]

Well, ttribe thinks polygamy is not cool, and he is saying that polygamy is abuse. 

 

I edited post 57, please read it. 

 

There's no question that polygyny is inherently unequal, and the way it was practiced in Utah resulted in quite a few absentee husbands, creating de facto single-parent households. Does that make it evil? Not necessarily, but it does open the door for a lot of problems and abuse in ways that monogamy does not. 

[JLHPROF]

You might change your mind if you read any books about the FLDS.

 

That is people, not polygamy.

The number of God's laws that have been corrupted by mortal men is almost endless.

[carbon dioxide]

The nice thing about polygamy is it that is sorts out the contenders from the pretenders.  If a person says they believe Joseph Smith was a prophet, BOM is true, ect and then finds some of the particulars in the practice of polygamy and it bothers them to the point of leaving the Church, then it is fairly clear to me their testimony was pretty shallow before they heard about it.

[jkwilliams]

The nice thing about polygamy is it that is sorts out the contenders from the pretenders.  If a person says they believe Joseph Smith was a prophet, BOM is true, ect and then finds some of the particulars in the practice of polygamy and it bothers them to the point of leaving the Church, then it is fairly clear to me their testimony was pretty shallow before they heard about it.

 

 

It's a tough spot to be in when your testimony conflicts with your conscience. 

[ttribe]

Well, ttribe thinks polygamy is not cool, and he is saying that polygamy is abuse.

Try reading what I said again, this time for comprehension.

[JLHPROF]

It's a tough spot to be in when your testimony conflicts with your conscience. 

 

I think God does that on purpose - to remind us that his ways (perfect) are not our ways (imperfect).

It is a misconception that all aspects of our conscience is the same as the light of Christ in every man.  Some are the same.  But some aspects are just what society has led us to believe are right and wrong.  And we all know how correct society is about everything

 

Nephi said "murder goes against my conscience", God said "do it anyway".

Peter believed "the gospel wasn't to be given to the gentiles", God said "do it anyway".

Brigham Young said he "longed for the grave" when told to live polygamy.  God said "do it anyway".

 

Going against the false traditions of our fathers (or our present society) is a big part of the gospel.

[jkwilliams]

I think God does that on purpose - to remind us that his ways (perfect) are not our ways (imperfect).

It is a misconception that all aspects of our conscience is the same as the light of Christ in every man.  Some are the same.  But some aspects are just what society has led us to believe are right and wrong.  And we all know how correct society is about everything

 

Nephi said "murder goes against my conscience", God said "do it anyway".

Peter believed "the gospel wasn't to be given to the gentiles", God said "do it anyway".

Brigham Young said he "longed for the grave" when told to live polygamy.  God said "do it anyway".

 

Going against the false traditions of our fathers (or our present society) is a big part of the gospel.

 

I don't know. I think lying to your spouse about whom you're sleeping with is wrong, and that's pretty consistent with scripture, regardless of what society says. Life's better when I don't have to try to rationalize doing that. I guess that makes me a pretender.

Edited August 14, 2015 by jkwilliams

[ttribe]

The nice thing about polygamy is it that is sorts out the contenders from the pretenders. If a person says they believe Joseph Smith was a prophet, BOM is true, ect and then finds some of the particulars in the practice of polygamy and it bothers them to the point of leaving the Church, then it is fairly clear to me their testimony was pretty shallow before they heard about it.

The only thing that is shallow in this post is your short cut to drawing a line between what you've decided is "faithful" and what is not.

Edited August 14, 2015 by ttribe

[carbon dioxide]

It's a tough spot to be in when your testimony conflicts with your conscience. 

My conscience says that drinking a beer every so often might not be a bad thing.  (Not that I have ever desired to have one.)  Real tests challenge us.  If all tests of God did not challenge us, if it does not cut against the grain of what we think should happen, it is not a real test.  I can understand people having difficulties but if one entire view of Joseph Smith, the restoration, ect flip 180 degrees on the issue of polygamy, there was not much there before they heard about polygamy.

Edited August 14, 2015 by carbon dioxide

[jkwilliams]

My conscience says that drinking a beer every so often might not be a bad thing.  (Not that I have ever desired to have one.)  Real tests challenge us.  If all tests of God did not challenge us, if it does not cut against the grain of what we think should happen, it is not a real test.  I can understand people having difficulties if if one entire view of Joseph Smith, the restoration, ect flip 180 degrees on the issue of polygamy, there was not much there before they heard about polygamy.

 

You've got an odd conscience, then. But congratulations on passing the test that us pretenders have failed.

 

In reality, you really have no idea what other people are thinking or feeling, so I don't know how you can declare who is a contender or pretender. And yes, using that phrase makes you sound like a bit of a jerk.

[carbon dioxide]

There's no question that polygyny is inherently unequal, and the way it was practiced in Utah resulted in quite a few absentee husbands, creating de facto single-parent households. Does that make it evil? Not necessarily, but it does open the door for a lot of problems and abuse in ways that monogamy does not. 

It is unequal.  The poor man does not have a chance at maintaining his sanity

Edited August 14, 2015 by carbon dioxide

[VideoGameJunkie]

I'll be happy if I can even find onecompanion in my eternity.

[jkwilliams]

It is unequal.  The poor man does not have a chance.

 

Sure he does. He can just do what Orson Hyde did and leave his wives and kids to fend for themselves.

[jkwilliams]

I'll be happy if I can even find onecompanion in my eternity.

 

Yep, finding the right spouse is worth more than anything else in life.

[carbon dioxide]

You've got an odd conscience, then. But congratulations on passing the test that us pretenders have failed.

 

In reality, you really have no idea what other people are thinking or feeling, so I don't know how you can declare who is a contender or pretender. And yes, using that phrase makes you sound like a bit of a jerk.

I don't need to know what people are thinking or feeling.  The end result is enough for me.  If someone says "Joseph Smith is a prophet."  They hear about polygamy and how he practiced it and then say "Joseph Smith was not a prophet" then I can feel pretty confident that when they said "Joseph Smith was a prophet" was not really based on anything substantial.  It is easy to follow God and his prophets when the do and say all the right things that make someone comfortable.  The real test comes when they do something unexpected and cause a real trial.  I don't declare any specific person a contender or pretender.  They declare it themselves by their actions.  I did not call you a pretender.  If you placed yourself in that category but thinking I did, you judged yourself to be that.  Not me. 

Edited August 14, 2015 by carbon dioxide

[jkwilliams]

I don't need to know what people are thinking or feeling.  The end result is enough for me.  If someone says "Joseph Smith is a prophet."  They hear about polygamy and how he practiced it and then say "Joseph Smith was not a prophet" then I can feel pretty confident that when they said "Joseph Smith was a prophet" was not really based on anything substantial.  It is easy to follow God and his prophets when the do and say all the right things that make someone comfortable.  The real test comes when they do something unexpected and cause a real trial.  I don't declare any specific person a contender or pretender.  They declare it themselves by their actions. 

 

Life is never as simple as you describe, and if you really believe people are that shallow and leave the church to be "comfortable," you have a lot to learn.