Joseph Smith's Polygamy

[carbon dioxide]

Life is never as simple as you describe, and if you really believe people are that shallow and leave the church to be "comfortable," you have a lot to learn. 

Some do.  My comment was general.  I don't know your specific story so it my comment does not apply to you then it does not apply to you. 

[jkwilliams]

Some do.  My comment was general.  I don't know your specific story so it my comment does not apply to you then it does not apply to you. 

 

Yes, your comment was general, and it betrays a shallow understanding of how other people live. Maybe you're just young. I don't know.

[carbon dioxide]

Yes, your comment was general, and it betrays a shallow understanding of how other people live. Maybe you're just young. I don't know.

People are more shallow than you admit to.  How else can you explain the popularity of Kim Kardashian, Bruce Jenner, or Kylie Jenner?  My comment was not about how people live but their thought process.  Person A says "Joseph Smith was a prophet.  They say the BOM is true."  They then hear about polygamy and say "Joseph Smith was not a prophet and the BOM is not true."  So what happened to their view of Joseph Smith and the BOM before polygamy?  Polygamy really has nothing to do with those things anyway?  My view and you don't have to agree with it is that their testimony on Joseph Smith and the BOM was shallow to begin with.  If not polygamy, it would be something else.  If one has a grounded testimony, these peripheral issues may cause some challenge but they will withstand the storm just as a tree with deep roots can stand up to a strong storm.

[jkwilliams]

People are more shallow than you admit to.  How else can you explain the popularity of Kim Kardashian, Bruce Jenner, or Kylie Jenner?  My comment was not about how people live but their thought process.  Person A says "Joseph Smith was a prophet.  They say the BOM is true."  They then hear about polygamy and say "Joseph Smith was not a prophet and the BOM is not true."  So what happened to their view of Joseph Smith and the BOM before polygamy?  Polygamy really has nothing to do with those things anyway?  My view and you don't have to agree with it is that their testimony on Joseph Smith and the BOM was shallow to begin with.  If not polygamy, it would be something else.  If one has a grounded testimony, these peripheral issues may cause some challenge but they will withstand the storm just as a tree with deep roots can stand up to a strong storm.

 

That's the problem: you don't know people's thought processes. You're just projecting your own shallow view onto them. You think what is a "peripheral issue" to you must be for everyone else, so those who let such trivial things change their perspective are weak, at least weaker than you are. 

 

I could just as easily say that people who choose loyalty to Joseph Smith over truth and their conscience show that they never had much of a conscience and never valued truth to begin with. That would be a really stupid and shallow thing to say, but no more or less so than what you said. 

Edited August 14, 2015 by jkwilliams

[Thinking]

I don't need to know what people are thinking or feeling.  The end result is enough for me.

 

If, as you believe, the LDS Church is God's church, wouldn't you want to know what people are thinking or feeling so that you can figure out how to help them come back?

 

If someone says "Joseph Smith is a prophet."  They hear about polygamy and how he practiced it and then say "Joseph Smith was not a prophet" then I can feel pretty confident that when they said "Joseph Smith was a prophet" was not really based on anything substantial.

 

Correct.

 

It is easy to follow God and his prophets when the do and say all the right things that make someone comfortable.

 

Yep. It's all about comfort.

 

The real test comes when they do something unexpected and cause a real trial.

 

If something is a real trial, why would you be critical of somebody who stumbles because of it?

 

I don't declare any specific person a contender or pretender.  They declare it themselves by their actions.

 

You may not declare it, but I think we can all be sure who you think are the contenders and the pretenders.

[Teancum]

The nice thing about polygamy is it that is sorts out the contenders from the pretenders.  If a person says they believe Joseph Smith was a prophet, BOM is true, ect and then finds some of the particulars in the practice of polygamy and it bothers them to the point of leaving the Church, then it is fairly clear to me their testimony was pretty shallow before they heard about it.

I imagine true believing FLDS say the same thing about their shallow apostates.

[Robert F. Smith]

.........................................................................................  

 

To be fair I have no desire for more than the one, and only, wife I had for the last 43 years. But can find no convincing argument that would preclude God from permitting it.

 

It's certainly a very quick summary, but it's accurate and, as cinepro said, it explains perfectly why people have issues with Joseph's practice of polygamy. In the end, whether or not God permitted something, it doesn't mean it can't be troubling. I'm troubled by the slaughters the Israelites carried out in the Old Testament, but as you say, there's nothing precluding God from commanding it.

You guys take a commendably anthropological view here.

[JLHPROF]

 I think lying to your spouse about whom you're sleeping with is wrong, and that's pretty consistent with scripture, regardless of what society says.

 

CFR - I'd love to see THAT scripture. 

(Thou shalt not lie to one wife about your other wife...)

[Calm]

Different people may view the word "comfort" differently.

For me, agony is the opposite of comfort. So yeah, if I left the Church because accepting something caused me emotional agony, I would generally phrase it as preferring comfort (balance, feeling right about something).

I don't know if co was using it that way, but I would not be personally offended if someone said I made a lifealtering decision for comfort. I have before, I will again.

[Robert F. Smith]

I'm certainly not a Fundamentalist LDS or otherwise. That being said It is in our Scriptures that it is for God to decide. I'm just happy that he hasn't decided to re-institute its earthly practice yet.

 

I think it was Joseph F Smith who said polygamy would be reinstituted as soon as it was legal. It may soon be legal and it will be interesting to see if the church follows early teachings or continues to keep it all in the past. If they do reinstitute it I've already made up my mind what I'll do.

Although it will soon be legalized, it is unlikely that the LDS Church will reinstitute polygamy any time soon.  However, we will see other groups practicing plural marriage (polygyny, polyandry, etc.), particularly American Muslims, and any of the wide array of fundamentalist Mormons.  Mormon monogamy and the nuclear family may even become quaint.

[Bobbieaware]

Why is Jospeph smith so special that he was the only one to have God sanctioned polygamy? Why reject it from others who claim God told them to do it....both for such in the Mormon tradition or from other odd sects.

Just think back to the way you used to think and believe about the Church and the Prophet Joseph Smith before you arrived at the point where you are today; and then imagine what you would have said in response to the question you asked (above) and you'll have your answer.

Edited August 14, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[Bobbieaware]

I like love your neighbor as yourself and do unto others as you want them to do to you. I can even go with love God with all your heart mind might, etc.

All the other stuff that gives power and control over others by the person claiming to speak for God is suspect. In the LDS church and Joseph Smith's career plural marriage tops that list for me at least.

You missed the point of my question. I said I wanted you to provide EVIDENCE the God REVEALED a particular doctrine. Saying you agree with a particular doctrine is not the same thing as saying you have provable EVIDENCE that God actually revealed that particular doctrine. Do you now understand the distinction? If so, I'm interested to know if you can provide some provable evidence, beyond a mere positive emotional response, that God revealed the Golden Rule?

[carbon dioxide]

If something is a real trial, why would you be critical of somebody who stumbles because of it?

 

Stumbling and giving up are two different things.  We all stumble on our own issues but that does not mean we should throw in the towel when things get hard.

Edited August 14, 2015 by carbon dioxide

[TheSkepticChristian]

There's no question that polygyny is inherently unequal, and the way it was practiced in Utah resulted in quite a few absentee husbands, creating de facto single-parent households. Does that make it evil? Not necessarily, but it does open the door for a lot of problems and abuse in ways that monogamy does not. 

 

At least the men don't commit adultery. Polygamy by itself  does not create problems. Abuse exists in monogamous and polygamous marriages, for example, a alcoholic parent causes a single-parent household. 

Edited August 14, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[Thinking]

Polygamy by itself  does not create problems.

 

Yes it does. As long as the ratio of men to women is about 1:1, polygamy will always lead to the older men searching for their other wives among the younger females.

[TheSkepticChristian]

Yes it does. As long as the ratio of men to women is about 1:1, polygamy will always lead to the older men searching for their other wives among the younger females.

 

consenting adults

 

Most people don't practice polygamy, so where is the problem? 

 

It would be a problem if the practice was common. 

Edited August 14, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[Thinking]

consenting adults

 

Most people don't practice polygamy, so where is the problem? 

 

It would be a problem if the practice was common. 

 

If a religious community was practicing polygamy, it would be common to that community. These types of communities typically marry within the community (covenant people, etc.) so what happens outside is irrelevant to the fact that the birth ratio of males to females inside the community is about 1:1.

[TheSkepticChristian]

If a religious community was practicing polygamy, it would be common to that community. These types of communities typically marry within the community (covenant people, etc.) so what happens outside is irrelevant to the fact that the birth ratio of males to females inside the community is about 1:1.

 

but if they want to be part of that religious community, that is their problem. If their pastor does not threaten them or force them, and if the man financially supports the entire family (the women can help too), I don't see anything wrong with polygamy, especially if it is between consenting adults. 

 

Here is an example of a pastor who does not force his children to be part of his church, I believe this is the video (I hope) 

 

Bytheway, 

About 70 percent of married men admitted to cheating on their wives

http://magazine.foxnews.com/love/cheating-statistics-do-men-cheat-more-women

Edited August 14, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[jkwilliams]

CFR - I'd love to see THAT scripture. 

(Thou shalt not lie to one wife about your other wife...)

 

I think the commandment not to lie pretty much covers it, unless of course there's some caveat in the scriptures that it's OK to lie when it's about sex. 

[Tsuzuki]

Yes it does. As long as the ratio of men to women is about 1:1, polygamy will always lead to the older men searching for their other wives among the younger females.

 

Include polyandry and the balance is restored.

[thesometimesaint]

Include polyandry and the balance is restored.

 

Both tend to self limit over time. Polyandry just a little quicker.

[ttribe]

Well, ttribe thinks polygamy is not cool, and he is saying that polygamy is abuse. 

 

I edited post 57, please read it. 

 

 

That is people, not polygamy.

The number of God's laws that have been corrupted by mortal men is almost endless.

 

 

The nice thing about polygamy is it that is sorts out the contenders from the pretenders.  If a person says they believe Joseph Smith was a prophet, BOM is true, ect and then finds some of the particulars in the practice of polygamy and it bothers them to the point of leaving the Church, then it is fairly clear to me their testimony was pretty shallow before they heard about it.

 

Have any of you read any of the following books?

 

• Answer Them Nothing, by Weyermann
• Prophet's Prey, by Brower
• Malignant Pied Pipers of Our Time, by Olsson

[TheSkepticChristian]

• Answer Them Nothing, by Weyermann
• Prophet's Prey, by Brower
• Malignant Pied Pipers of Our Time, by Olsson

 

No, but how is polygamy itself wrong? Just because we LDS no longer agree with it, doesn't mean it is wrong.

I can name more books about domestic violence and adultery, so your point is? 

 

 

If a religious community was practicing polygamy, it would be common to that community

 

Bytheway, polygamy was not common in the early church, and most of the few polygamists only had two wives. 

 

I think the church needs to go back to polygamy because there are a lot of single sisters, and women live longer than men. 

Edited August 14, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[ttribe]

No, but how is polygamy itself wrong? Just because we LDS no longer agree with it, doesn't mean it is wrong.

I can name more books about domestic violence and adultery, so your point is? 

 

 

How many times do I have to say - POLYGAMY, ITSELF, IS NOT INHERENTLY WRONG! - until you stop putting those words in my mouth?

Edited August 14, 2015 by ttribe

[TheSkepticChristian]

How many times do I have to say - POLYGAMY, ITSELF, IS NOT INHERENTLY WRONG! - until you stop putting those words in my mouth?

 

Okay, so your point was?