Joseph Smith did see Moroni

[TheSkepticChristian]

It is now possible for non-mormons to believe that Joseph Smith saw Moroni. There are several secular explanations for the rise of Mormonism without saying Joseph Smith was a con man. Advances in medical science have revolutionized the understanding of the human brain, while the disciples of social, cognitive, and effective neuroscience show connections of high cognitive functions and emotional states associated with spiritual experiences to states of the brain. According to Dr. Persinger "naturally occurring electromagnetic fields can also cause religious experiences, particularly in those with this predisposition to sensing God. For example, powerful meteor showers were occurring when Joseph Smith, founder of the Church of Latter Day Saints, was visited by the angel Moroni" http://science.howstuffworks.com/life/inside-the-mind/human-brain/brain-religion2.htm

However, Persinger theory has been challenged "Sensed presence and mystical experiences are predicted by suggestibility, not by the application of transcranial weak complex magnetic fields"

Still, there is no need for critics to conclude that Joseph Smith was a con man. Even the MormonThink critics are open to that possibility "Some people that believe Joseph was essentially a good man, but do not believe in the divinity of the LDS Church, think that Joseph may have had some similar experiences... Perhaps whenever a strange thought entered Joseph's mind, he thought it came from God and acted upon it accordingly. He may have thought he was trying to do the right thing by getting people motivated by a new religion, and whenever people needed more convincing, he developed things on his own such as a prop covered in a cloth that he said contained gold plates - all to the end goal of following the guidance of the thoughts in his head."

 

 

 

 

[Avatar4321]

Let's say for the sake of argument that Joseph's visions were real, but just a concoction of the brain. How did the other witnesses have the same visions? Or are we to assume everyone else had the same exact vision due to their brains? For example there were 27 people involved in the vision. Are we really to believe it was something creasteds by Josephs brain?

[TheSkepticChristian]

2 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

Let's say for the sake of argument that Joseph's visions were real, but just a concoction of the brain. How did the other witnesses have the same visions? Or are we to assume everyone else had the same exact vision due to their brains? For example there were 27 people involved in the vision. Are we really to believe it was something creasteds by Josephs brain?

we can't prove that they had the exact same vision. There is no evidence that the witnesses ever described Moroni  in details. The only one that described Moroni was Joseph Smith. 

Edited December 29, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[theplains]

9 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

It is now possible for non-mormons to believe that Joseph Smith saw Moroni. There are several secular explanations for the rise of Mormonism without saying Joseph Smith was a con man. 

Saying that you saw an angel does not mean the vision is of God.  Muhammad said the angel Gabriel
came to him and revealed the Quran.  The fruit of this - the Quran denies the basic truths of what 
Jesus taught. Muslim eschatology has people embracing Islam when Jesus returns.

Thanks,
Jim

[Avatar4321]

10 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

we can't prove that they had the exact same vision. There is no evidence that the witnesses ever described Moroni  in details. The only one that described Moroni was Joseph Smith. 

I know David whitmer described Moroni at least once.

Not to mention the other visions that multiple people testified to seeing the same thing. The only way this theory has any merit is to ignore the other witnesses

[The Nehor]

Occam's Razor says that a real angel is a simpler explanation.

[TheSkepticChristian]

17 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

I know David whitmer described Moroni at least once.

CFR. Please quote him. Is it a first hand account? 

19 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

Not to mention the other visions that multiple people testified to seeing the same thing. The only way this theory has any merit is to ignore the other witnesses

We can't prove they saw the exact same thing. There are secular explanations too 

Quote

A collective hallucination is a sensory hallucination induced by the power of suggestion to a group of people. It generally occurs in heightened emotional situations, especially among the religiously devoted. The expectancy and hope of bearing witness to a miracle, combined with long hours of staring at an object or place, makes certain religious persons susceptible to seeing such things as weeping statues, moving icons and holy portraits, or the Virgin Mary in the clouds. Those witnessing a "miracle" agree in their hallucinatory accounts because they have the same preconceptions and expectations. Furthermore, dissimilar accounts converge towards harmony as time passes and the accounts get retold.

http://skepdic.com/collective.html

 

[Storm Rider]

Avatar, that is what is not logical about arguments against Joseph's prophetic calling and visions.  Those that assisted him most closely with the restoration of the Church latter fell away, yet none of these ever spoke against the Book of Mormon or Joseph's initial work and actions.  Why did they not speak out about the part of the work that could not be controlled solely by Joseph - such as the translation of the plates, the veracity of the Book of Mormon, or the initial visions?  

No, this does not make sense.  Individuals may criticize the leaders of the Church, its doctrines, but the Book of Mormon continues to be a stumper when looking at Joseph and the other witnesses. 

[Avatar4321]

Still looking for David whitmers account but I found this interesting talk:

 

Quote

 

That question, What do you know about Moroni, is a magnificent question. When you are going out into the mission field or when you just meet people, this is a good question to ask them. And then tell them about him. You know, he is one of the most influential men that the world has ever known. He was a prophet, a warrior, a scribe, and many other things. He was the son of a great man named Mormon.

 

Mormon was also a prophet, a leader, and the person who translated much of the Book of Mormon. Both Moroni and Mormon wrote that they had been visited by the Savior of the world and the three Nephites who were still living on the earth.

 

We know that Moroni lived a long time after the Nephites were killed off, by the unrighteous Laminates. He lived alone for about 36 or 37 years, all by himself. He finished writing what he had to write; then he hid up the plates. We know nothing about the loneliness of this great soul except that he did die. We don’t know when or how or how old he was. Some of the Brethren have felt that he was 80 years of age. Some say he was over 70. So he was pretty well up in years when he passed away. But, he was a resurrected being who after 1400 years appeared at the bedside of the Prophet Joseph Smith on the 21st day of September in 1823. That was three years after Joseph had the original first vision. Moroni lived in the fifth century of time. He was the last witness of the people who lived in that area of time. He testified that he had seen the resurrected Christ. He is also the most recent person who has lived and died on this earth who we know has been resurrected. This great man I’m talking about, I see him in my mind; a great soul. I’ll bet he was about 6’3" or 6'4" and had muscles bigger than mine and was really handsome and wonderful; but you wonder what happened during those years of loneliness. You wonder how many times he might have been nursed in sickness or in accident or warned of danger by the three Nephites who did appear to him. (They had the privilege of living on the earth and doing whatever they were allowed to do.) And he testified, “But behold, my father [Mormon] and I have seen them, and they have ministered unto us.” He tells us that we shall know that, “I have seen Jesus." That you should know, and that is the testimony for each of you. This is a man who had seen the Savior. He bore his testimony, and he said, “that he talked with me face to face, and that he told me in plain humility, even as a man telleth another in [his] own language, concerning these things [that he wanted to tell him].”

 

Now let me tell you a little something, an interesting story, that some of you may not have heard. In the early days of the Church, Orson Hyde was called to be one of the original Twelve Apostles by the Prophet Joseph. He served under three presidents of the Church–the Prophet Joseph, Brigham Young, and John Taylor. He was one of the great Apostles of this dispensation of time. He gave a talk in the Salt Lake Tabernacle on July 4, 1854. That’s only seven years after they came into the valley. (Now, it’s not the Tabernacle we know now, but the one they originally built.) That talk was a patriotic talk about America. He called Moroni the “guardian angel of America.” He said, “That same angel of God that appeared to Joseph Smith presides over the destiny of the United States of America.” Elder Hyde said that he [Moroni] was in the camp with George Washington. He [Moroni] helped George Washington when he had trouble. He said that same angel was with Christopher Columbus and gave him deep impressions and dreams and visions respecting the new world. He said that same angel was with Columbus on the stormy deep. He guided his frail vessel to the desired haven, and he calmed the troubled elements.

 

Most people never think much about him; but Moroni is still active and busy and doing all those necessary things to help bring about the full restoration of the gospel. We honor Moroni. There are 14 Latter-day Saint hymns that we sing like, "The Morning Breaks," that’s about Moroni; and “What Was Witnessed in the Heavens?”; “An Angel from on High"; “I Saw a Mighty Angel Fly”; and ten others. These beautiful hymns that we sing in the Church are all because of the angel Moroni.

 

Moroni had the great privilege, as he walked across this American Continent, of finding a place and designating the place where the St. George temple was to be built. He also designated where the Manti Temple was to be. And it’s been written that he designated Kirtland and Nauvoo and probably others. Moroni appeared to the Prophet Joseph Smith 22 different times during the life of the Prophet Joseph that we know of.

 

Now, I want to tell you the names of some of the people that saw Moroni. We all know he talked to Joseph Smith who saw him. We know that Oliver Cowdery saw him as did David Whitmer and Martin Harris.

 

Oliver Cowdery was excommunicated from the Church and was out of the Church for ten years, and then he was rebaptized and brought back into the Church and had a strong testimony of the great vision, the great experience that he had with the angel Moroni where he had seen those plates. Oliver Cowdery incidentally died in the Church. He was hoping to come across the country out to the valley, but he got sick and died. He was only 43 years of age and one of the greatest men in the history of our Church.

 

David Whitmer, one of the witnesses of the Book of Mormon, was also excommunicated. He lived until he was past 80 years of age. He never came back into the Church, but he never denied that he had seen the angel Moroni and had seen the plates.

 

Martin Harris was excommunicated, and was out of harmony with the Church but finally came out West. He was invited to speak in the Tabernacle. He was re-baptized into the Church and lived out his life in the northern part of the state of Utah.

 

Now, those four men saw him. But so did Emma Smith, the wife of the Prophet Joseph, and Mary Whitmer. Mary Whitmer was the mother of David Whitmer and the four other Whitmers who were all witnesses of the Book of Mormon. It was in her home that the Brethren organized the Church; and while they were there holding the meetings of organization, she was doing the cooking and all the hard work for the men. She went out into the barn to milk a cow; and while she was out in that barn, Moroni appeared to her and showed her the plates and gave to her a testimony that she never forgot.

 

Moroni appeared to a man by the name of Luke Johnson. I don’t know why, but I’ve always had a warm feeling toward Luke. I guess I like the name Johnson. I guess I like the name Luke. Anyway, he saw the angel Moroni. He handled the plates. He was one of the original Apostles, but he was excommunicated from the Church. However, he saw the error of his ways and came back and was rebaptized into the Church. Luke came out West with Brigham Young and the others and went down into the west part of Utah out south of Tooele, Utah. There he was ordained a bishop and served as a bishop in the Church. He had been one of the original Apostles and was a humble wonderful man and one who had seen Moroni.

 

Lucy Harris, the wife of Martin Harris, was a problem. If my wife wasn’t here, I’d say she was a pain in the rear end as far as the Brethren all went because she was constantly causing trouble to Joseph Smith. She wanted to see those plates so bad. She went out digging out in the field. And one day she was digging out there trying to find where the plates had been hidden and a big snake came up and scared her half to death, and she quit digging. For some reason I don’t know, she had some kind of a dream where Moroni bore his testimony to her.

 

The ninth man to see Moroni was a man named Zera Pulsipher. He was a minister of another church. He had a vision in his barn. While he was out in the barn one day, a light descended upon him in the middle of this barn, and he looked up and saw Moroni. And Moroni blessed his life and showed him the plates. He became a Seventy in the Church. He became a high priest and became a patriarch. He’s the man who converted and baptized Wilford Woodruff into the Church in 1833.

 

I tell you W. W. Phelps saw Moroni. He was cut off from the Church twice; but he kept coming back. He died in full fellowship. He wrote "Praise to the Man" and some of the other wonderful hymns that we sing.

 

John P. Green saw Moroni. He was a brother-in-law of Brigham Young, and he gave the book to Brigham Young. Rhoda Young, his wife, who was the sister of Brigham Young, also had the privilege of seeing Moroni.

 

John Taylor, who became one of the Apostles and later the President of the Church, as a young man had a vision. Long before he joined the church, he had a vision and he saw an angel of heaven holding a trumpet in his mouth sending a message out to the nations of the world. He didn’t understand what it was until he joined the Church, and then he understood the great mission of this man Moroni.

 

Oliver Granger was met by Moroni. Moroni actually knelt down and prayed with him and put his arm on the back of this man so the man could feel him as he talked with him.

 

Just before Heber C. Kimball died (Heber C. Kimball was one of the original Apostles who became a counselor to Brigham Young for many, many years), 21 years after they entered into the Salt Lake Valley, Heber C. Kimball had a visit from Moroni. Moroni explained to him that his work on earth was concluded and that he would soon die. I think if I remember right, it was just the night before he passed away.

 

Now, I have given you the names of sixteen people who had the privilege of seeing the angel Moroni. There’s one other; I can’t find the truth on this one, but I am positive in my own mind that Hyrum Smith, the Prophet's brother, also had a chance to see Moroni.

 

 

 

http://www2.byui.edu/Presentations/transcripts/devotionals/2003_03_11_rudd.htm

[Avatar4321]

 

Quote

 

When I was returning to Fayette with Joseph and Oliver, all of us riding in the wagon, Oliver and I on an old fashioned wooden spring seat and Joseph behind us, when traveling along in a clear, open place, a very pleasant, nice looking old man suddenly appeared by the side of our wagon and saluted us with "Good morning; it is very warm," at the same time wiping his face or forehead with his hand. We returned the salutation, and by a sign from Joseph, I invited him to ride if he was going our way. But he said very pleasantly, "No, I am going to Cumorah." This name was somewhat new to me, and I did not know what "Cumorah" meant. We all gazed at him and at each other and as I looked inquiringly of Joseph, the old man instantly disappeared, so that I did not see him again.

He was, I should think, about 5 feet 8 or 9 inches tall, and heavy set, about such a man as James Vaucleave there, but heavier; his face was as large, he was dressed in a suit of brown woolen clothes, his hair and beard were white, like Brother Pratt's, but his beard was not so heavy. I also remember that he had on his back a sort of knapsack with something in it, shaped like a book. It was the messenger who had the plates, who had taken them from Joseph just prior to our starting from Harmony. (Pratt and Smith Report, Millenial Star, Vol. 40, p. 769-774)

 

 

[Tacenda]

Avatar, do you have any references for the 16 that saw Moroni?  I had no idea about this.

[Avatar4321]

I just have the talk I linked to. I found it interesting but I don't know his sources

[Jeanne]

14 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

I just have the talk I linked to. I found it interesting but I don't know his sources

So do we know if this talk is based on some real facts? 

[Ahab]

There's probably a scientific explanation for why some people don't believe Joseph saw Moroni too, though. 

Hmm. What to do when scientific explanations conflict.

[Sanpitch]

We must remember that second hand stories and myths and such have no validity unless it supports the Joseph Smith story.

[The Nehor]

12 minutes ago, Sanpitch said:

We must remember that second hand stories and myths and such have no validity unless it supports the Joseph Smith story.

Well if Church critics of Joseph Smith's claims were not such compulsive liars we wouldn't need such strict rules of interpretation. They brought it on themselves.

[Avatar4321]

http://m.deseretnews.com/article/865644606/15-witnesses-to-the-Book-of-Mormon.html?ref=http%3A%2F%2Fm.facebook.com%2F

An article by Dr P that touches a bit on the subject

[rodheadlee]

On 12/30/2015 at 10:39 AM, Jeanne said:

So do we know if this talk is based on some real facts? 

I'd tell you that I saw an angel too, but you wouldn't believe me either. I don't know his name.