Beehive home missionaries taught to say BY had only 2 wives?

[SmileyMcGee]

2 hours ago, Sanpitch said:

Jim Jones and David Koresh left a fascinating history also.

Indeed...there are some interesting documentaries about those guys. 

You do understand that describing something as fascinating is not the same as making a moral judgment, right? I can be uncomfortable with polygamy as practiced by Brigham (as I understand it) and still think he's a fascinating historical figure.

Edited December 8, 2015 by SmileyMcGee

[omni]

A couple of years ago I took my family on a tour of the Beehive House immediately after viewing a film across the street at the Legacy Theater in which we were treated to an enjoyable dramatization of Joseph Smith diligently translating the gold plates with nary a hat or seer stone in sight.

Throughout the tour, the lovely sister missionaries kept referring to BY's "wife".   Perhaps after noticing the large number of rooms we passed by, about half way through the tour a women finally confronted the elephant in the room, "where did all of his wives sleep?" The sisters looked a little uncomfortable and explained they lived next door at the Lion House, and then quickly moved on to the subject.

Based on my own personal experience, the story in the Tribune doesn't seem that unbelievable.  

[JLHPROF]

I also can confirm on the numerous times (easily half a dozen in the last 5 years) I've toured the Beehive house that the missionaries make zero mention of polygamy.

And on multiple occasions when I have hinted about it they have ignored any mention and changed the subject.

I have never had them openly deny his polygamy if questioned though but I've never had a missionary mention it either.  We did have one very nice Asian missionary tell my wife and I and the tour group that we could be "bondaged together for eternity".  We still chuckle about that.

[Russell C McGregor]

3 hours ago, Teancum said:

 

 

Well amazingly enough we agree. I went on a tour of Brigham's mansion five years ago and nary a word about polygamy.

 

More proof the current LDS leadership hates polygamy and wishes it never would have happened yet cannot escape it.

So speculation, guesswork and mind-reading rises to the level of "proof" for you, does it?

[Ginger Snaps]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

I was there in 2011 and they didn't even mention plural marriage.  The sisters who were giving the tour (we were the only people in attendance and they knew we were members) pointed out Brigham Young's wife's bedroom as if there had only been one, and when we asked about his other wives, they gave us deer in the headlight looks and didn't really say anything about them like where they lived or anything.

 

Similar to my experience.  I went through in June of this year, and yes, the tour was conducted as if he only had one wife.  When I asked, I was told that his other wives lived away from that home.  I was pretty sure I knew more about it than they did, so I let it drop. 

It was an odd tour for a number of reasons.  My sister had been through before and saw a lot more of the house than we did that day, so I don't know why we got a partial tour.  The two sisters conducting our tour were ESL with very heavy accents. We could barely understand anything they said.  They literally almost couldn't handle it when we asked questions and forced them away from their memorized script. And apparently they were instructed to bear their testimony at every. single. stop. throughout the house.  I am a devout member of the church, and I found this highly annoying and forced.  

[JLHPROF]

3 minutes ago, Ginger Snaps said:

  I was pretty sure I knew more about it than they did, so I let it drop. 

That's hardly difficult.  Most young missionaries appear to have studied very little.

But then neither had I when I was 18-21.

3 minutes ago, Ginger Snaps said:

And apparently they were instructed to bear their testimony at every. single. stop. throughout the house.  I am a devout member of the church, and I found this highly annoying and forced.  

When we were kids and visiting temple square we'd get swarmed by the sister missionaries.  My Dad would joke he'd feed us to them if we didn't behave.  (Back then I swear they always had these fixed stepford smiles...doesn't seem to be the case anymore).

 

Edited December 8, 2015 by JLHPROF

[Ginger Snaps]

Just now, JLHPROF said:

That's hardly difficult.  Most young missionaries appear to have studied very little.

But then neither had I when I was 18-21.

True  Additionally, it was very clear that these two sisters had just learned English for their missions, and it's my understanding that a lot of these historical speedbumps don't always make it into translated material. . . I wonder how many of them hear about it for the very first time serving there on Temple Square.  

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, Russell C McGregor said:

So speculation, guesswork and mind-reading rises to the level of "proof" for you, does it?

Yes that is right.  I follow your fine example of spinning things at the slightest inference.

actually I have other reasons for my speculative guess.  Among them is,the fact that the LDS church has been extremely hostile to anyone who acts interested in polygamy for quite some time even to the point of not baptizing people in polygamist marriages in nations where it is legal.   Also there is the matter of how they totally ignore it or even purge it out of say the prior lesson manual on BYs teachings.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

5 hours ago, JAHS said:

I believe that his two "legal" wives did live in the Beehive house at various times but that his other "plural" wives lived mostly in the Lion house or other dwellings in the area.

 

His first wife died in 1832 (and hence never lived in Utah). 

[JAHS]

7 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

His first wife died in 1832 (and hence never lived in Utah). 

Right. Then it must have been his second legal wife and first plural wife who lived there with the others in the Lion House.

[saemo]

15 hours ago, Calm said:

There appears to be no effort on the part of the reporter to check and see if her report is accurate or not.  It is accepted as a given it would appear.

It's Rolly. He's a cultural commentator, usually humorous, but not big on fact checking. Would be like taking Dear Abby to task for not fact checking the letters she responded to. 

[saemo]

14 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Ok, boy a lot of you commented, while I was away.  I guess the gun thing made everything I mentioned go away, it was a dumb article I guess.  But IMO, they don't recognize the wives of BY on the tour where before they did, years ago. 

A few years ago, maybe 2, I made my husband take me to Nauvoo.  There also the wives are no where in sight except for Emma.  Maybe that was what Emma would have wanted, I don't know.  But still the sacrifice of JS's wives count too, I would think.  And no, in case anyone wondered, I didn't ask about them, today I might have. 

Thanks for the replies, even Halconero's, lol.  Still hoping for a change in the church's Visitor's Centers....

 

 

 

My understanding is that the Church of Christ controls most of the Nauvoo historical sites. They view Smith as monogamous, and polygamous claims by Young and his followers as fabricated lies. So you wouldn't get polygamy coverage from Nauvoo. 

I Think it humorous that the gun thing is highlighted in responses but hey, did anyone notice Young had a married lover who left her marriage and family? I find it more humorous that adultery is ignored. 

Edited December 8, 2015 by saemo

[HappyJackWagon]

1 hour ago, saemo said:

My understanding is that the Church of Christ controls most of the Nauvoo historical sites. They view Smith as monogamous, and polygamous claims by Young and his followers as fabricated lies. So you wouldn't get polygamy coverage from Nauvoo. 

I Think it humorous that the gun thing is highlighted in responses but hey, did anyone notice Young had a married lover who left her marriage and family? I find it more humorous that adultery is ignored. 

Many of the Nauvoo sites are owned and maintained by the Community of Christ (not church of Christ). Historically the Reorganized church viewed Smith as monogamous but they have accepted his polygamy for a number of decades now therefore they haven't viewed it as BY's lies for quite some time.

[Tacenda]

51 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Many of the Nauvoo sites are owned and maintained by the Community of Christ (not church of Christ). Historically the Reorganized church viewed Smith as monogamous but they have accepted his polygamy for a number of decades now therefore they haven't viewed it as BY's lies for quite some time.

And they acknowledged JS's polygamy when taking a tour of the Community of Christ temple, just myself and my husband.  Also, we were able to see where JS hid in a hidden place in one of the homes.  So they were much more open with the history. 

Edited December 8, 2015 by Tacenda

[Tacenda]

http://athoughtfulfaith.org/curtis-henderson-errant-nature-of-polygamy-fallible-prophets-seeking-for-truth/

Excellent podcast with Curtis.  I'm so amazed at his 11 years of research, he is full of wisdom.  I wish I could remember his wonderful quotes too.  If some of you aren't into listening to podcasts, there is a paper he has written that is downloadable.  I think every LDS member should read, or Christian for that matter.  I love his wisdom.  I can honestly see why the church wants to hide polygamy from view, since there are cases that polygamy caused harm.  One way that Curtis brings up is insane men that take it too far, such as Brian David Mitchell, or the Lafferty brothers.  I can understand the church hiding it to the general public now.  But it's a dichotomy for sure, which Curtis mentions.  He mentions that sometimes the world is right and the supposedly Christians aren't.  And a lesson can be learned, especially through opposition.  He reiterates that Joseph Smith was a weak person, but isn't that nice that the Lord works with the weak.  There is so much to this podcast I only hope all will listen to it.  I just happen to be thumbing through a list of podcasts and felt a pull to listen to it, wasn't looking for it.  It's definitely long, but not boring.  Even if you listen from 1:07 minutes in you'll get some good stuff. 

 

[Russell C McGregor]

7 hours ago, saemo said:

My understanding is that the Church of Christ controls most of the Nauvoo historical sites. They view Smith as monogamous, and polygamous claims by Young and his followers as fabricated lies. So you wouldn't get polygamy coverage from Nauvoo. 

I Think it humorous that the gun thing is highlighted in responses but hey, did anyone notice Young had a married lover who left her marriage and family? I find it more humorous that adultery is ignored. 

I find it rather more humorous that gossip and innuendo is treated as fact -- but only when it aligns with your prejudices.

And I find it hilarious that a papist, of all things, should imagine that alleged misbehaviour by the leader of any church, other than her own, is worthy of comment.

Given (and it is a given) that even if all the gossipy accusations against Brigham were sustainable (which they are not) he would still not come anywhere near several hundred popes.

Right now the options are to queue your posts or ban you. You will be in the queue next time. You are taking up too much mod time with unnecessary insults and it is disrespectful to everyone.

 

[rongo]

I agree that Mormons shouldn't be hesitant, whether in manuals or in history sites or in private conversation, to acknowledge that many Mormon men had multiple wives, starting in Nauvoo and continuing to the late 19th century. It bothers me when people try mightily to steer the conversation away, because everyone knows it --- in fact, Vielweiberei (German slang for polygamy --- literally, "many-wife-ery" is one of the things non-Mormons can be counted on to have heard something about (and the Word of Wisdom).

Back in the late 1990s, I rented motorhomes to German-speaking tourists in Salt Lake and explained how to operate everything. Before leaving for Yellowstone or the Utah national parks, they always went to Temple Square, and they asked for recommendations of other things to see in Salt Lake. They also often asked Church history and doctrinal questions, including about polygamy. I gave out a lot of Zeugnis des Propheten Joseph Smiths pamphlets and copies of Die Wahrheit Wiederhergestellt (Truth Restored) --- many asked at the rental place if they had any material about Mormon history. Once, when I could tell that a man had a good sense of humor and personality (i.e., that he wouldn't go back home with a misunderstanding of my joke), in answer to a question of whether we still practiced polygamy, I told him that we gave it up after we read in the Bible "Kein Mann kann zwei Meister dienen" (no man can serve two masters). You can't tell just anyone that --- some might go home and say, "They had to give it up when they read it was unbiblical!" ---, but he laughed hard at that. I explained that the practice was discontinued in the late 19th century by the Church itself, but that small offshoots continue to practice it today. 

The Church really ought to see that its missionaries, including at historical sites, all know to say that Joseph Smith and Brigham Young (and other men in the 19th century) had multiple wives (exact number sometimes unknown). The manual whitewashing and trying to act as if they didn't is just silly ---- people already know otherwise, and it looks disingenuous. It should be a simple thing for even "basic" members to be able to acknowledge that without getting out in the weeds of polyandry, wife ages, etc. 

[Calm]

Quote

He reiterates that Joseph Smith was a weak person

Did he actually say JS was a "weak person" or did he say he had weaknesses?

There is a difference.  I don't see someone who is tarred and feathered and then preaches the next day as weak (at least not in that part of his character).

[cinepro]

A lot of the fault in this rests on the missionary department.  It's my understanding that the sister missionaries are rotated through Temple Square positions routinely and almost randomly, with no training given other than the more experienced missionaries passing the spiel down to the newer ones.  Unless an effort is made to have tour guides with knowledge and experience, nothing will change.

[bluebell]

5 minutes ago, cinepro said:

A lot of the fault in this rests on the missionary department.  It's my understanding that the sister missionaries are rotated through Temple Square positions routinely and almost randomly, with no training given other than the more experienced missionaries passing the spiel down to the newer ones.  Unless an effort is made to have tour guides with knowledge and experience, nothing will change.

This is what i'm thinking as well.

I don't think this is some weird plot by the church to hide our polygamist past.  I just think that the missionary training is hit and miss on this issue.

[rongo]

It's not a weird plot, but there is still some institutional hesitancy. Remember the quotes in the Brigham Young manual that were edited to refer to a wife (singular), instead of wives (plural)? Those sort of things are the COB, not missionaries passing down explanations of men marrying old widows to provide for them as they crossed the plains.

[Tacenda]

30 minutes ago, Calm said:

Did he actually say JS was a "weak person" or did he say he had weaknesses?

There is a difference.  I don't see someone who is tarred and feathered and then preaches the next day as weak (at least not in that part of his character).

Sorry, I'm going to have to re-listen, but you're probably right, he probably said "had weaknesses".  I know he mentions the leaders who served with him, noticed these weaknesses, but took it that if God can work through him, then He might be able to work through theirselves.   

[Tacenda]

http://m.imgur.com/gallery/FGc0vKU

I guess some people out there think someone or the devil, hacked LDS.org and put the essays on it. The church needs to put things in manuals I'm thinking.

Edited December 10, 2015 by Tacenda

[Hamba Tuhan]

27 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I guess some people out there think someone or the devil, hacked LDS.org and put the essays on it.

I call shenanigans on this.

[Zakuska]

10 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I call shenanigans on this.

I wouldn't.

Here a Sunday school teacher was released from his teaching assignment by local leaders for using the essay on the priesthood ban during a lesson to 12 - 14 year olds who had asked why God instituted the ban in the first place.

http://www.sltrib.com/lifestyle/faith/2475803-155/mormon-bishop-dismisses-teacher-for-using