When should you resign your L D S membership?

[JLHPROF]

22 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

I chose to leave when I realized that the Bible did not support LDS interpretation.  Specifically, when I chose to believe that Jesus Christ would give me eternal life immediately upon asking Him by His atonement alone and not by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.  

I'm glad you held on to the Bible and your testimony of Christ as Savior.

I'm afraid I don't see your interpretation anywhere in the Bible.

[Teancum]

4 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I'm glad you held on to the Bible and your testimony of Christ as Savior.

I'm afraid I don't see your interpretation anywhere in the Bible.

Why would you be glad?  He believes LDS worship a false Christ and a false gospel.  And you think the same of his doctrine.

[JLHPROF]

4 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Why would you be glad?  He believes LDS worship a false Christ and a false gospel.  And you think the same of his doctrine.

I am always glad for whatever small truths and limited light anyone is able to lay hold on.

[RevTestament]

13 hours ago, FormerLDS said:

I chose to leave when I realized that the Bible did not support LDS interpretation.  Specifically, when I chose to believe that Jesus Christ would give me eternal life immediately upon asking Him by His atonement alone and not by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.

Sounds very Protestant and contradictory to what Jesus said.

I joined the LDS church basically on the strength of my Biblical testimony.

I am editing my statement to clarify what I am saying. Many Protestants in this day interpret Paul as saying that grace means we do not have to follow the commandments. Some go so far as saying that baptism is a commandment, and therefore we don't need it. Jesus plainly tells us the righteous follow the commandments and do not need a physician. He also tells us to keep the commandments and to please the Father. Those who knowingly break the commandments thinking that grace will save them, will probably be quite sad come resurrection day - and upset at those who led them astray.

Edited December 7, 2015 by RevTestament

[Tony Frank]

When you are in the Church only to fight against it and fight against the restored gospel of Jesus Christ, and you have rejected all attempts to help you, you should resign your membership.

[FormerLDS]

15 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I'm glad you held on to the Bible and your testimony of Christ as Savior.

I'm afraid I don't see your interpretation anywhere in the Bible.

Didn't Jesus Christ say in John 6:47 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life"?

Those who hear His word and choose to believe are given eternal life immediately.

How is that anything even remotely close to LDS theology friends?

 

[Storm Rider]

3 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

Didn't Jesus Christ say in John 6:47 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life"?

Those who hear His word and choose to believe are given eternal life immediately.

How is that anything even remotely close to LDS theology friends?

 

I am not familiar with any church or denomination that teaches such an interpretation of scripture.  What church or denomination do you now attend. I would be curious to know.

This doctrine would also teach that repentance is necessarily unnecessary?  Baptism and any other ordinance is also unnecessary.  What role does sin play in the life of someone that has immediately received salvation?

[FormerLDS]

12 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Sounds very Protestant and contradictory to what Jesus said.

I joined the LDS church basically on the strength of my Biblical testimony.

I am editing my statement to clarify what I am saying. Many Protestants in this day interpret Paul as saying that grace means we do not have to follow the commandments. Some go so far as saying that baptism is a commandment, and therefore we don't need it. Jesus plainly tells us the righteous follow the commandments and do not need a physician. He also tells us to keep the commandments and to please the Father. Those who knowingly break the commandments thinking that grace will save them, will probably be quite sad come resurrection day - and upset at those who led them astray.

Personally, I'm only protestant in the LDS sense of the word.

Regarding following the commandments, I think it's important to note that LDS theology makes it possible to one day obtain eternal life after the final resurrection based upon ones obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel (nutshell).  It is therefore a reward.  In contrast, the "eternal life" which Jesus Christ offers is given as a free gift the moment one believes.  There is no greater form of "salvation" available.  One is immediately re-born into the family of God and has Jesus Christ living within. 

In both scenarios, obedience to commandments are a requirement, but one group obeys because they have eternal life, not because they are trying (in vain) to obtain it.

[FormerLDS]

10 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

I am not familiar with any church or denomination that teaches such an interpretation of scripture.  What church or denomination do you now attend. I would be curious to know.

This doctrine would also teach that repentance is necessarily unnecessary?  Baptism and any other ordinance is also unnecessary.  What role does sin play in the life of someone that has immediately received salvation?

Hello, I attend a Baptist Church. 

[Storm Rider]

3 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

Hello, I attend a Baptist Church. 

Which Baptist denomination?  I grew up in the deep south and know Southern Baptist and Four Square Baptists teachings pretty thoroughly.  What you have stated above is not supported by their teachings.  It seems to be a narrow interpretation on once saved always saved theology.  It is a good conversation, but at the end of the conversation you still need to own sin as being detrimental to spiritual health.  Eventually one either admits they really weren't saved because their live does not reflect the nature of a new man or....that once saved always saved is not a good summation of their actual doctrine being taught.  Have I misunderstood your position?

[FormerLDS]

4 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Which Baptist denomination?  I grew up in the deep south and know Southern Baptist and Four Square Baptists teachings pretty thoroughly.  What you have stated above is not supported by their teachings.  It seems to be a narrow interpretation on once saved always saved theology.  It is a good conversation, but at the end of the conversation you still need to own sin as being detrimental to spiritual health.  Eventually one either admits they really weren't saved because their live does not reflect the nature of a new man or....that once saved always saved is not a good summation of their actual doctrine being taught.  Have I misunderstood your position?

I'm just a regular Baptist, and, far as I know, everyone believes as I described.

Regarding "once saved always saved", do you believe that once you are born of your parents you can be un-born? 

It's so refreshing to me that I can never become unsaved no matter how far I stray or what I do or don't do.  I have eternal life and nothing can ever change that.

Contemplate that for a moment.  I mean, how can any reward-based system of do's-and-don'ts compete with that?

[bluebell]

56 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

Didn't Jesus Christ say in John 6:47 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life"?

Those who hear His word and choose to believe are given eternal life immediately.

How is that anything even remotely close to LDS theology friends?

 

What does eternal life look like for those people?  How are they different, in mortality, from those who don't have eternal life?

[FormerLDS]

1 minute ago, bluebell said:

What does eternal life look like for those people?  How are they different, in mortality, from those who don't have eternal life?

Depends upon whether one chooses to obey the commandments.

Are they no longer your children because they disobey?

[Rivers]

31 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

I'm just a regular Baptist, and, far as I know, everyone believes as I described.

Regarding "once saved always saved", do you believe that once you are born of your parents you can be un-born? 

It's so refreshing to me that I can never become unsaved no matter how far I stray or what I do or don't do.  I have eternal life and nothing can ever change that.

Contemplate that for a moment.  I mean, how can any reward-based system of do's-and-don'ts compete with that?

So if you murder somebody are you still saved?

Or do you believe that your conversion to Christ is so strong that you will have never have the disposition to commit something truly heinous.

If it's the latter than your belief about being saved isn't that far off from what LDS believe about the subject. 

[bluebell]

2 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

Depends upon whether one chooses to obey the commandments.

Are they no longer your children because they disobey?

Sorry, i'm not understanding what you are saying (and your question doesn't seem relevant at all to mine so i'm going to wait to answer it until you answer mine first so things don't get confusing).  

What does 'receiving eternal life' look like while the person is still alive?  What blessings does the person get while they are still alive that an unsaved person doesn't get?

[Storm Rider]

37 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

I'm just a regular Baptist, and, far as I know, everyone believes as I described.

Regarding "once saved always saved", do you believe that once you are born of your parents you can be un-born? 

It's so refreshing to me that I can never become unsaved no matter how far I stray or what I do or don't do.  I have eternal life and nothing can ever change that.

Contemplate that for a moment.  I mean, how can any reward-based system of do's-and-don'ts compete with that?

I think we have gone way beyond the topic of this thread.

I grew up with a form of the teaching you are professing.  There are many variations in how it is presented, but it generally follows the same scenario.  Initially, it is all semantics - the exact moment of being saved is meaningless if the result is one is not saved.  When you begin to dig then it gets more interesting because the mere mention of knowing Jesus is problematic; even the demons know that Jesus is the Christ.  Then one must bring in to be saved also means a rebirth, becoming a new man with a new nature.  Of course, this then introduces what happens to those that profess Jesus with the lips and Jesus states he never knew them - even when they had performed miracles in his name.  So who is saved?

Eventually, one will come to identify the standards that John taught in 1 John - those standards by which one is identified as a having been born again.  1 John 2:3-17 is a good starting point:

     3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
     4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
     5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
     6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
     7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
     8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
     9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
     10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
     11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
     12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name’s sake.
     13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.
     14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.
     15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
     16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
     17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

If belief were enough then the demons would be saved.  No, the Bible makes it clear how one demonstrates that they know Jesus Christ - if we know him we keep his commandments.  

This is an old argument that Protestants had with the Catholic Church.  If one reads the Bible it is clear that discipleship is not begun and ended in a walk down the aisle.  Jesus demands more of us if we are to follow him.  That term follow indicates there is a path to walk.  There is some place to go that will require that we endure to the end. Matthew 24:13 tells us that it is he that endures to the end that will be saved.  The author of Matthew is clear that being saved did not occur until we had endured something in order to be saved.  

I have gone on too long.  I hope that you have found peace in your new religion and church affiliation.  I will stand firm on the Bible as the word of God and what it teaches me.

[filovirus]

1 hour ago, FormerLDS said:

Personally, I'm only protestant in the LDS sense of the word.

Regarding following the commandments, I think it's important to note that LDS theology makes it possible to one day obtain eternal life after the final resurrection based upon ones obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel (nutshell).  It is therefore a reward.  In contrast, the "eternal life" which Jesus Christ offers is given as a free gift the moment one believes.  There is no greater form of "salvation" available.  One is immediately re-born into the family of God and has Jesus Christ living within. 

In both scenarios, obedience to commandments are a requirement, but one group obeys because they have eternal life, not because they are trying (in vain) to obtain it.

Not to spit hairs, but I would use faithfulness to covenants in order to one day obtain eternal life. Strict obedience was what the Pharisees tried to do. They tried to live the law perfectly, but missed out on the reason for the law. They missed the boat a little bit.

[FormerLDS]

11 minutes ago, Rivers said:

So if you murder somebody are you still saved?

Or do you believe that your conversion to Christ is so strong that you will have never have the disposition to commit something truly heinous.

If it's the latter than your belief about being saved isn't that far off from what LDS believe about the subject. 

You're really asking "Is one sin more sinful than another sin?"

Doesn't James 2:10 say "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."

Therefore, to God, wouldn't telling a lie be the same a murder?

[Rivers]

2 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

You're really asking "Is one sin more sinful than another sin?"

Doesn't James 2:10 say "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."

Therefore, to God, wouldn't telling a lie be the same a murder?

Yes. Anything short of perfection disqualifies us from salvation.  That is where Christ's atonement comes in.

[FormerLDS]

20 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Sorry, i'm not understanding what you are saying (and your question doesn't seem relevant at all to mine so i'm going to wait to answer it until you answer mine first so things don't get confusing).  

What does 'receiving eternal life' look like while the person is still alive?  What blessings does the person get while they are still alive that an unsaved person doesn't get?

Ok fair enough in John 5 Jesus said "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

How could there be living and dead people listening to his words?

In 1 John 5 how is it possible for there to be living people who do not have life?

"He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life."

One is alive and one is dead.  Which would you say is blessed?

[FormerLDS]

13 minutes ago, filovirus said:

Not to spit hairs, but I would use faithfulness to covenants in order to one day obtain eternal life. Strict obedience was what the Pharisees tried to do. They tried to live the law perfectly, but missed out on the reason for the law. They missed the boat a little bit.

If "faithfulness to covenants" is a requirement to "obtain eternal life", wouldn't that make eternal life a reward?

[FormerLDS]

18 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

I think we have gone way beyond the topic of this thread.

I grew up with a form of the teaching you are professing.  There are many variations in how it is presented, but it generally follows the same scenario.  Initially, it is all semantics - the exact moment of being saved is meaningless if the result is one is not saved.  When you begin to dig then it gets more interesting because the mere mention of knowing Jesus is problematic; even the demons know that Jesus is the Christ.  Then one must bring in to be saved also means a rebirth, becoming a new man with a new nature.  Of course, this then introduces what happens to those that profess Jesus with the lips and Jesus states he never knew them - even when they had performed miracles in his name.  So who is saved?

Eventually, one will come to identify the standards that John taught in 1 John - those standards by which one is identified as a having been born again.  1 John 2:3-17 is a good starting point:

     3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
     4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
     5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
     6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
     7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
     8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
     9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
     10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
     11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
     12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name’s sake.
     13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.
     14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.
     15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
     16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
     17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

If belief were enough then the demons would be saved.  No, the Bible makes it clear how one demonstrates that they know Jesus Christ - if we know him we keep his commandments.  

This is an old argument that Protestants had with the Catholic Church.  If one reads the Bible it is clear that discipleship is not begun and ended in a walk down the aisle.  Jesus demands more of us if we are to follow him.  That term follow indicates there is a path to walk.  There is some place to go that will require that we endure to the end. Matthew 24:13 tells us that it is he that endures to the end that will be saved.  The author of Matthew is clear that being saved did not occur until we had endured something in order to be saved.  

I have gone on too long.  I hope that you have found peace in your new religion and church affiliation.  I will stand firm on the Bible as the word of God and what it teaches me.

You say it's off topic, but not at all.  "When should you resign your LDS membership?"

When it's obvious to you that LDS theology does not support what Jesus Christ himself plainly said. 

[FormerLDS]

11 minutes ago, Rivers said:

Yes. Anything short of perfection disqualifies us from salvation.  That is where Christ's atonement comes in.

Hey I read about you in Matthew chapter 7!  You're the one who took faith in Jesus Christ and mingled it with your own best efforts hoping that would be enough to satisfy Jesus Christ and provide your eternal life.

"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?"

Problem is, if you don't have eternal life then you don't have Jesus Christ and you have not passed from death unto life.

[Rivers]

My understanding is that passing from death unto life  is being spiritually converted. Paul used the description of becoming a "new creature." The Book of Mormon talks about a "mighty change of heart." Its best think in terms of becoming or transforming rather than earning salvation. 

[FormerLDS]

4 minutes ago, Rivers said:

My understanding is that passing from death unto life  is being spiritually converted. Paul used the description of becoming a "new creature." The Book of Mormon talks about a "mighty change of heart." Its best think in terms of becoming or transforming rather than earning salvation. 

Correct, receiving eternal life is something Jesus Christ gives you within.  It's a free gift and all you have to do is choose to believe that His work alone is sufficient for that gift.  It can't be a gift if you are required to do something in order to get it.

You need to ask yourself "Why does Jesus Christ plainly offer me eternal life today, but LDS theology completely disagrees?" 

Whom will you choose to believe friends?