Local Leaders In Boston Stake Reduce 3-Hour Block - Sorta

[JAHS]

I suppose there has to be some latitude depending on the size of the branch as to what and how many meetings there are. When I was on my mission in Austria I was the branch president of a branch that had four active members. One middle-aged sister;  a couple that had to be in their 80's. The brother thought he was a teacher in the Aaronic priesthood but couldn't remember. The husband of the 4th sister would not allow her to come.  We had one meeting in a one-room chapel where we sang a song, had a prayer, the two of us missionaries administered the sacrament. One of us gave a talk or lesson; we had a closing prayer. That was it. The whole thing took less than an hour.

Edited November 25, 2015 by JAHS

[Scott Lloyd]

Any thoughts why this top down (christ and the apostles) approach for the whole world still has a very clear skew to what's happening in the Western states?

 

 

Only that the prophets and apostles who have priesthood authority and keys to govern the worldwide Church happen to be based in Salt Lake City, where they are apt to be more acquainted with what is going in the western United States than elsewhere.

 

This doesn't strike me as all that enigmatic.

 

On the other side (almost) of the world most of the bishops I've served with have a fairly relaxed attitude to most of the directives and programs coming down from Utah. It has often involved a cursory glance at the latest initiative or handbook update which quickly gets sent to the "circular file" in the corner of the room.

 

 

Well, if that's true, it seems to be a textbook example of what I have characterized in this thread as distance decay.

 

As I mentioned earlier, I would have thought that would be less influential today than ever before, but I suppose even technological advances in communication and travel cannot easily penetrate sheer human intransigence or inertia.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

I suppose there has to be some latitude depending on the size of the branch as to what and how many meetings there are. When I was on my mission in Austria I was the branch president of a branch that had four active members. One middle-aged sister; a couple that had to be in their 80's. The brother thought he was a teacher in the Aaronic priesthood but couldn't remember. The husband of the 4th sister would not allow her to come. We had one meeting in a one-room chapel where we sang a song, had a prayer, the two of us missionaries administered the sacrament. One of us gave a talk or lesson; we had a closing prayer. That was it. The whole thing took less than an hour.

Our stake has jurisdiction over an assisted-living center and (until recently) a care center for the elderly. It falls to the individual wards in the stake to put on the sacrament meeting program at these facilities, and it is always only about 40 minutes in length. It has always been my understanding that there is authoritative approval to reduce the standard meeting length for this branch; it would surprise me if that were not the case.

I don't think that's comparable to the recent ill-advised initiative by the stake leadership in Boston, though.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Garden Girl]

This is just bizarre that a SP would go so far off the reservation. As much as I sympathize with his reasoning for the change, I can't imagine actually doing so without direction from above.

On a side note, is there anyone here who would be disappointed if the church moved to a two hour block schedule?

 

Me... I don't see it as any great sacrifice to have a 3-hour block... in fact, if I'm going to get ready and drive the miles, I want to receive spiritual feeding and blessings... want to have time in sacrament meeting to ponder the sacrament and hear the speakers (most of whom are very good in my ward), have time to discuss the lessons in class (a terrific gospel doc teacher), and then to have time with my sisters in Rel Soc... of course my view may be biased by the fact that I'm retired, and the Sunday block is my time to enjoy attending Church with my fellow saints.... people who do not have the weekly free time that I do undoubtedly have a different view...  but I don't see the benefit of a 45-min lesson time in Gosp Doc.  By time opening prayer and guest intros are completed, there is about 35-40 mins for the actual lesson.

 

GG   

[Hamba Tuhan]

On the other side (almost) of the world most of the bishops I've served with have a fairly relaxed attitude to most of the directives and programs coming down from Utah. It has often involved a cursory glance at the latest initiative or handbook update which quickly gets sent to the "circular file" in the corner of the room.

 

And how would you say the Church and its wards are faring on your side of the world?

[Calm]

Only that the prophets and apostles who have priesthood authority and keys to govern the worldwide Church happen to be based in Salt Lake City, where they are apt to be more acquainted with what is going in the western United States than elsewhere.

 

This doesn't strike me as all that enigmatic.

 

Well, if that's true, it seems to be a textbook example of what I have characterized in this thread as distance decay.

 

As I mentioned earlier, I would have thought that would be less influential today than ever before, but I suppose even technological advances in communication and travel cannot easily penetrate sheer human intransigence or inertia.

The most relaxed, do as we please (not saying they were completely like this, but the ones furthest down the scale) wards I've been in have been in Utah County. The least relaxed were in Kansas and the San Fran area.

[Kenngo1969]

... When I was a bishop last, I worked without an executive secretary (in a big ward). My original one was called to be the stake executive secretary two weeks after he was called, and he succeeded me as bishop. The other two I had were awful, and I much prefer to make my own appointments and cancellations/reschedules, anyway. Easier for the ward members, easier for me. A counselor in the stake presidency told me that I had to have one, and I pulled "handbook" on him and asked where it says that I have to have one. In my current ward, my exec. sec. is wonderful, and even though I would prefer not to have one, I don't want to rock the boat and work without him. 

 

I also didn't have a Sunday School president, and don't have one now (I released the one who was in when I got called and put him where we needed him more). I don't think the stake would be happy about that, but I'm not asking for permission.

Please allow me, humbly, to offer you another perspective on not filling those callings.  If your inspiration leads you to take the course you do, I will, of course, defer to that.  Still, here is my perspective.  I knew full well when I was called to serve as executive secretary to the bishop with whom I served that it wasn't because of my steel-trap mind, my obsession with details, my organizational skills, or any other asset I did or, more likely, did not, possess.  If I had been asked, I could have named at least twenty brethren in the ward who were more qualified, more worthy, and more capable in those respects than I was.  I was humbled, honored, and privileged to serve with those brethren in that capacity.  

 

While I never lacked an appreciation for those who serve me, I was blissfully unaware of the sheer scope, and breadth, and magnitude of the responsibilities borne by the bishopric and by other leaders in the ward, as well as of the problems, challenges, and burdens borne by so many in the ward.  In response to the seemingly ubiquitous lament that often crops up so often here of "Why-doesn't-the-church-do-more-about-[fill-in-the-blank]?", my answer is that everyone in the rank-and-file of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints ought to have the opportunity to rotate through a Ward Council.  Only then (just as I did) will they develop an adequate appreciation of what the Church of Jesus Christ actually is doing about whatever it is they think the Church is ignoring, or is not paying adequate attention to.  I had similar experiences after I was released from that calling when I was called to serve as a ward Sunday School secretary and, shortly after that, to serve as a stake Sunday School secretary to the father of my former ward Sunday School president.

 

Many times, we're called to positions at least as much to learn and to grow as to serve.  I would encourage you to consider whether you might be denying some brethren in your ward growth opportunities, fellowship opportunities in bishoprics and presidencies, and other valuable experiences by leaving those callings vacant.  

[The Nehor]

Well we need to do it on Saturday then because Sunday is NOT the Sabbath.

 

If you want to be pedantic about the day there is a whole Church dedicated to being obnoxious about it and I am sure they would love to have you.

[omni]

Me... I don't see it as any great sacrifice to have a 3-hour block... in fact, if I'm going to get ready and drive the miles, I want to receive spiritual feeding and blessings... want to have time in sacrament meeting to ponder the sacrament and hear the speakers (most of whom are very good in my ward), have time to discuss the lessons in class (a terrific gospel doc teacher), and then to have time with my sisters in Rel Soc... of course my view may be biased by the fact that I'm retired, and the Sunday block is my time to enjoy attending Church with my fellow saints.... people who do not have the weekly free time that I do undoubtedly have a different view... but I don't see the benefit of a 45-min lesson time in Gosp Doc. By time opening prayer and guest intros are completed, there is about 35-40 mins for the actual lesson.

GG

This makes sense and were I in your situation I would probably feel the same. For me three hours has always seemed too long, even at the height of my TBM days. I imagine were that announcement ever to be made, there would be a sea of grins and a few inadvertent "woo hoos" heard throughout sacrament meeting.

[St. Bookmark]

When I was a missionary I served in the Navajo reservation and the branches only had two hour blocks sacrament and relief society and a some what priesthood meeting since the only priesthood holders were the branch president, his only councilor, a young boy and us.

Then after the meetings were done we would have a pot luck.

[Scott Lloyd]

The most relaxed, do as we please (not saying they were completely like this, but the ones furthest down the scale) wards I've been in have been in Utah County. The least relaxed were in Kansas and the San Fran area.

On reflection, it occurs to me that the Brethren are traveling out of state almost weekly. This gives them widespread, individual, firsthand exposure to the farflung areas of the Church. That must influence their outlook a great deal. If anything, there may be more provincialism on the part of those doing the complaining about Utah-centricism than there is on the part of the Brethren setting the Churchwide policy.

[Hamba Tuhan]

I kept thinking that someone might actually post the relevant sections from the handbook. It looks like, after one entire day, that task falls to me:

 

Chapter 17 is entitled 'Uniformity and Adaptation' and is divided into two sections, 'Where Uniformity is Required' and 'Circumstances That May Permit Local Adaptation'. The former section addresses Sunday meetings as follows:

 

Sacrament Meetings and the Sunday Meeting Schedule

 

Holding sacrament meetings is a scriptural mandate (see D&C 59:9). Instructions for sacrament meetings are provided in 18.2.2. The Sunday meeting schedule is set forth on page 153. The First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve have established this schedule. Local leaders should not alter it.

 

In extreme situations, local leaders may cancel Sunday meetings. However, doing so should be a rare occurrence. Examples of situations that may justify canceling meetings include emergency security concerns and severe weather. If possible, a bishop should confer with the stake president before canceling meetings.

 

Sometimes an unusual local situation may make it necessary to alter the Sunday schedule for a longer period. For example, a change may be necessary if a meetinghouse has been damaged by fire, flooding, or storm. In such a circumstance, the stake president seeks guidance from the Area Presidency or the Area Seventy who presides in his coordinating council.

 

Leaders of very small branches may adapt the Sunday schedule as directed by their leaders, using the Basic Unit Program Guidebook.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Hamba Tuhan

[Scott Lloyd]

I kept thinking that someone might actually post the relevant sections from the handbook. It looks like, after one entire day, that task falls to me:

 

Chapter 17 is entitled 'Uniformity and Adaptation' and is divided into two sections, 'Where Uniformity is Required' and 'Circumstances That May Permit Local Adaptation'. The former section addresses Sunday meetings as follows:

Well, there you have it! No wonder the Church leadership moved so quickly on this. The stake in Boston could scarcely have been more clearly in conflict with guidelines.

Thanks for this documentation.

[mfbukowski]

Oops I couldn't find it either. Good job Hamba

I had seen that when we were making changes in our stake but now I couldn't find it

Edited November 25, 2015 by mfbukowski

[provoman]

I have heard reports from a person whom I believe to be a very credible source that the Church does, in fact, have a reduced meeting schedule in some places.

Thanks,

-Smac

Heard the same years ago for crowded building in a Southwestern state. Just confirmed that a reduced scheduled occur for about a year or two, due to crowding. Edited November 25, 2015 by provoman

[rongo]

In Queen Creek, Arizona, whole stakes were on a two hour block for years because the building construction was years behind the mass migration of Mormons into the area. There were sometimes six units in a building because there was no other way to do it. Then, when hundreds of buildings and stake centers were built, more than one "cease and desist" order was sent to stake presidents telling them that they now needed to go back to a three hour block. In some cases, the stake presidents played dumb and stalled until forced to go back. 

 

I think it would be very difficult to go back to a three-hour block after years in a two-hour block, and there were multiple stake presidents who did as much as they could to stall going back.

 

Interestingly, on my mission we also had "groups" (units that weren't even branches). In Gruppe Hameln (Hameln Group, the Pied Piper city), the six members and we met in our church, which was the apartment next door.

 

 

Both apartments were on top of a gambling hall. We had all three hours of the block, despite our small size. 

Edited November 25, 2015 by rongo

[mfbukowski]

In Queen Creek, Arizona, whole stakes were on a two hour block for years because the building construction was years behind the mass migration of Mormons into the area. There were sometimes six units in a building because there was no other way to do it. Then, when hundreds of buildings and stake centers were built, more than one "cease and desist" order was sent to stake presidents telling them that they now needed to go back to a three hour block. In some cases, the stake presidents played dumb and stalled until forced to go back. 

 

I think it would be very difficult to go back to a three-hour block after years in a two-hour block, and there were multiple stake presidents who did as much as they could to stall going back.

 

Interestingly, on my mission we also had "groups" (units that weren't even branches). In Gruppe Hameln (Hameln Group, the Pied Piper city), the six members and we met in our church, which was the apartment next door.

 

Both apartments were on top of a gambling hall. We had all three hours of the block, despite our small size.

We attended a similar branch in Krakow Poland recently- it was a bit bigger- maybe 20 or so, half American tourists and missionaries. It was in a small office building two or three flights up.

[rongo]

My parents are actually serving a mission in Poland right now. They're in Warsaw, though. 

 

20+ people would be a branch anywhere, I think. I don't think the Church does "groups" any more.

[Hamba Tuhan]

Oops I couldn't find it either. Good job Hamba

 

In future please just ask. I knew right where it was and most of what it said because, well...

Edited November 25, 2015 by Hamba Tuhan

[mfbukowski]

My parents are actually serving a mission in Poland right now. They're in Warsaw, though.

20+ people would be a branch anywhere, I think. I don't think the Church does "groups" any more.

Agreed, it is officially a "Branch". Still though there were maybe 10 actual local members there. The brother who gave the sacrament talk was obviously well educated and spoke about the plan of salvation. Doctrinally for us it was very simple talk. But he delivered it as he saw it as the most profound truth ever revealed to man. Of course he was right it is. It was wonderful to have the opportunity to hear these new members discuss the gospel.

[Damien the Leper]

If wealth were an indicator of ability in spiritual leadership that might mean something. I know millionaires I wouldn't trust with a lemonade stand.

Carly Fiorina, Donald Trump and the Koch Brothers are at the top of my list.

[Damien the Leper]

For the FairMormon treatment on this matter, see here.

 

An excerpt:

Agreed and this prophet has absolutely nothing to do with Judaism and Jewish practice. If Mormons want to be Jewish and observe Torah then they have a great deal of changes to make.

This isn't some sort of backhanded attack. The prophets in Hebrew Bible times functioned vastly different from those in the modern LDS church.

[Damien the Leper]

I am, especially with the stake president. Sometimes, the stake president tells me, "Go ahead and do it. Just don't let my counselors know."

I remember meeting you in Maricopa several years ago. A close friend was in your ward. I'm rather fond of the topics you issues for Sacrament talks. Far from the "same ol', same ol'". I'm glad to hear you're a bishop again.

[Jeanne]

Our stake has jurisdiction over an assisted-living center and (until recently) a care center for the elderly. It falls to the individual wards in the stake to put on the sacrament meeting program at these facilities, and it is always only about 40 minutes in length. It has always been my understanding that there is authoritative approval to reduce the standard meeting length for this branch; it would surprise me if that were not the case.

I don't think that's comparable to the recent ill-advised initiative by the stake leadership in Boston, though.

Wow..I remember my family and I spent a lot of time with assisted living people doing Sacrament Meeting Musical numbers..that will always be special  to me!

[Scott Lloyd]

Wow..I remember my family and I spent a lot of time with assisted living people doing Sacrament Meeting Musical numbers..that will always be special to me!

Last time our ward did the program, I took a few ward choir members to the center (I'm choir director). It worked out well with a modicum of effort, as we already had the piece rehearsed for a performance in our own ward.