Local Leaders In Boston Stake Reduce 3-Hour Block - Sorta

[KevinG]

Just sayin' that, with some folks, the need-more-time-with-my-family-on-Sunday excuse might be a crock.

 

Reminds me of the joke about the Bishop who went golfing on Sunday and cried when he hit a hole in one.  When asked why he cried he replied "because I can't tell anyone!"

[KevinG]

Or even cross the street for a quick bowl of pho.

 

We had a few fast food places built next to our meeting house a few years back.  I thought "there goes the Aaronic Priesthood."  

[Scott Lloyd]

...for those of us who fear the inexorable decline into Utah Mormonism.  

 

 

Edit: No response from Scott.  How disappointing to push buttons and not have them ring.  

I almost did respond but out of charity decided to leave your joke free to resound unhindered and let you enjoy the moment.

[rongo]

Just sayin' that, with some folks, the need-more-time-with-my-family-on-Sunday excuse might be a crock.

I like President Packer's response to this concern, Scott: it's not our call to make whether people will use freed up time "properly" or not (in a series of meetings in 1990 when the Church emphasized a reduction in programs, activities, and meetings ---- something that has actually never come to pass):

 

"There is some risk associated with what I am saying. Perhaps some will excuse themselves and do little or nothing. That is not much of a risk  . . . That space belongs to families. When we cut down on Sundays to the block plan . . . and left some time open, you know what happened. Now brethren, it is their time. Let them use it as they feel to do --- for better or for worse. That is the risk.”

 

I'm not saying that the stake presidency "going rogue" was acting properly. I do completely sympathize with their sentiments. I'm thinking of cutting MIA, Cub Scouts, and 11 year-old Scouts to every other week, instead of every week (like with activity day girls). I feel like it's within my authority as a bishop to do that without permission from the stake.

[katherine the great]

And I think somewhere in Boston there is a Stake President who will never be an Area Seventy.

Or a nun!  

[Scott Lloyd]

I like President Packer's response to this concern, Scott: it's not our call to make whether people will use freed up time "properly" or not (in a series of meetings in 1990 when the Church emphasized a reduction in programs, activities, and meetings ---- something that has actually never come to pass):

 

"There is some risk associated with what I am saying. Perhaps some will excuse themselves and do little or nothing. That is not much of a risk  . . . That space belongs to families. When we cut down on Sundays to the block plan . . . and left some time open, you know what happened. Now brethren, it is their time. Let them use it as they feel to do --- for better or for worse. That is the risk.”

 

 

Fine.

 

Shortening the meeting block on their own initiative is obviously not something that is a stake presidency's call to make. As I said, the dizzying rapidity with which Church headquarters jumped on this matter says a lot.

 

 

I'm not saying that the stake presidency "going rogue" was acting properly. I do completely sympathize with their sentiments. I'm thinking of cutting MIA, Cub Scouts, and 11 year-old Scouts to every other week, instead of every week (like with activity day girls). I feel like it's within my authority as a bishop to do that without permission from the stake.

 

 

 

 

Within your authority to do it without receiving, or even seeking, direction from your stake leaders?

 

That, to me, seems to be the crux of the matter. And knowing what I now know about the stake president (he's a man with an impressive background; see my prior post, #47), I do think he should have exercised better judgment in this.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

And I think somewhere in Boston there is a Stake President who will never be an Area Seventy.

The man is a former president and CEO of Dell Computers and a millionaire. Even with his present lapse in judgment, my guess is he could make a fine Church leader on any level.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[The Nehor]

The man is a former president and CEO of Dell Computers and a millionaire. Even with his present lapse in judgment, my guess is he could make a fine Church leader on any level.

 

If wealth were an indicator of ability in spiritual leadership that might mean something. I know millionaires I wouldn't trust with a lemonade stand.

[VideoGameJunkie]

This was my old stake when I lived in Boston my whole life until moving to Utah this past July. The Stake President Rollins is a great man who was my Bishop when I was younger and got baptized before he moved away and came back and became Stake President. He became Stake President in 2011 and has interviewed me for 2 temple recommend renewals in 2011 and 2013. Kevin Rollins is a great man and has a wonderful family including a gay son whom he loves dearly. He knows what he's doing. I trust him completely. And yes as the former CEO of Dell he is loaded and has his own private jet, but he's such a humble and down to earth person it's great.

Edited November 24, 2015 by VideoGameJunkie

[Scott Lloyd]

If wealth were an indicator of ability in spiritual leadership that might mean something. I know millionaires I wouldn't trust with a lemonade stand.

I hear what you're saying.

 

But there's more to commend him than wealth (see the post from VideoGameJunkie).

[Hamba Tuhan]

Small branches sometimes reduce the overall block, shortening Sacrament meeting (maybe only having 1 speaker etc) and slightly shorter classes. So that isn't unheard of.

 

And how exactly do you know this?

 

The smallest branch I've ever belonged to was independent of any stake or district and more than 2,000 km from the mission office. It consisted of exactly 14 members: a family with three children, a family with five children, and two single males (including me). It is true that sacrament meeting sometimes ran a bit short, but only on Fast Sunday since, after all 14 of us had shared our testimonies, that was the end, but we never once 'reduced the overall block', and if anything, our classes ran longer because we had no need of 'passing time' in between.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Hamba Tuhan

[Hamba Tuhan]

On a side note, is there anyone here who would be disappointed if the church moved to a two hour block schedule?

 

I would be! And not just because Gospel Principles is such an essential class for our investigators, returning members, and recent converts.

 

Many weeks, half our ward is still at the chapel 45 minutes after church ends, just enjoying each other's company.

[Hamba Tuhan]

Until finally we have meetinghouse kiosks set up in mall parking lots where members can get a drive-through sacrament administered before heading back home.

 

I served in an area on my mission that had a drive-through stations of the cross.

[HappyJackWagon]

And how exactly do you know this?

 

The smallest branch I've ever belonged to consisted of exactly 14 members: a family with three children, a family with five children, and two single males (including me). It is true that sacrament meeting sometimes ran a bit short, but only on Fast Sunday since, after all 14 of us had shared our testimonies, that was the end, but we never once 'reduced the overall block', and if anything, our classes ran longer because we had no need of 'passing time' in between.

 

 

I have a buddy in a branch presidency in South Dakota where only about 60 members attend weekly and a lot of those are children. Even with senior missionaries assigned they don't have the adults to run full programs or even maintain hour long sacrament meetings weekly but they're too far away to join with another ward.

[Hamba Tuhan]

Yeah, we obviously couldn't run full programs either. After sacrament meeting, our 17-year-old primary president took her siblings and nieces under the chapel (it was on 2-metre stilts) for primary, and everyone else (six adults and one young man) had Sunday school together. After that, the women had Relief Society class inside the chapel whilst we four men and one boy had a combined priesthood meeting standing up on the veranda. We never had trouble with meaningfully filling a sacrament meeting, however. We had a rotation of speakers: two men one week, then two other men, the two women, our two youth, and finally all the primary children. It worked for us.

[mfbukowski]

Stake Bishopric meeting? and what is that abut eh?

It's about tying bishops the the stake and yelling at them for an hour or so. 

[mfbukowski]

Yeah, we obviously couldn't run full programs either. After sacrament meeting, our 17-year-old primary president took her siblings and nieces under the chapel (it was on 2-metre stilts) for primary, and everyone else (six adults and one young man) had Sunday school together. After that, the women had Relief Society class inside the chapel whilst we four men and one boy had a combined priesthood meeting standing up on the veranda. We never had trouble with meaningfully filling a sacrament meeting, however. We had a rotation of speakers: two men one week, then two other men, the two women, our two youth, and finally all the primary children. It worked for us.

There you go!

 

Handbook Violation!!!    

[Teancum]

And the sabbath was made to be observed.

 

 

Well we need to do it on Saturday then because Sunday is NOT the Sabbath.

[Hamba Tuhan]

There you go!

 

Handbook Violation!!!    

 

Section number?

[rongo]

 

 

 

 

Within your authority to do it without receiving, or even seeking, direction from your stake leaders?

Yes, I think so. How we run our MIA program, including frequency isn't something we need to "be commanded in all things" about. I think there are many things where we can use initiative and inspiration for whatever fits our members' needs best, without feeling that we need to get formal approval for everything.

 

Deviating from the three-hour block is something my radar would have told me is verboten even before this incident. So is simply eliminating the Scouting program entirely, even though I would really welcome and applaud that. 

 

When I was a bishop last, I worked without an executive secretary (in a big ward). My original one was called to be the stake executive secretary two weeks after he was called, and he succeeded me as bishop. The other two I had were awful, and I much prefer to make my own appointments and cancellations/reschedules, anyway. Easier for the ward members, easier for me. A counselor in the stake presidency told me that I had to have one, and I pulled "handbook" on him and asked where it says that I have to have one. In my current ward, my exec. sec. is wonderful, and even though I would prefer not to have one, I don't want to rock the boat and work without him. 

 

I also didn't have a Sunday School president, and don't have one now (I released the one who was in when I got called and put him where we needed him more). I don't think the stake would be happy about that, but I'm not asking for permission.

Edited November 24, 2015 by rongo

[Scott Lloyd]

Well we need to do it on Saturday then because Sunday is NOT the Sabbath.

For the FairMormon treatment on this matter, see here.

 

An excerpt:

 

Latter-day Saints do not base their worship practices on an analysis of early Christian history, or on the comments of scholars in Biblical commentaries, though these sources can confirm Church teachings. Rather, the Saints follow the guidance of a living prophet. However, it seems clear that the Latter-day Saint practice of observing the day of rest and worship on Sunday—like most of the Christian world—is consistent with the earliest Christian practice of which we have record. Interestingly, however, the most important aspect of Sabbath worship for the LDS seems to be the worship, and not the day on which it is held. Most LDS worship occurs on Sunday. General Authorities, who must often travel on conference assignments on Sunday, fast and receive the sacrament weekly on Thursdays. Church branches in Israel worship on Saturday. Branches in Muslim countries, such as Egypt, meet on Friday, the Muslim holy day.^[1]

 

[Scott Lloyd]

 

I also didn't have a Sunday School president, and don't have one now (I released the one who was in when I got called and put him where we needed him more). I don't think the stake would be happy about that, but I'm not asking for permission.

It's your affair and not mine, but were I in your place, I should think that being on good terms with the stake leadership and being confident that I was doing things with their approval -- or at least their knowledge and acquiescence -- would be a high priority with me.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Teancum]

For the FairMormon treatment on this matter, see here.

 

An excerpt:

 

 

Sure

 

I am ok with this and understand this already. I probably should not have made my comment.

 

Thanks

[rongo]

It's your affair and not mine, but were I in your place, I should think that being on good terms with the stake leadership and being confident that I was doing things with their approval -- or at least their knowledge and acquiescence -- would be a high priority with me.

I am, especially with the stake president. Sometimes, the stake president tells me, "Go ahead and do it. Just don't let my counselors know."

[canard78]

Somewhere, I think there must be a happy medium between "common sense" and distance decay.

The Church is and always will be subject to centralized, top-down (meaning Christ and the apostles) leadership and administration. That seems to be the way the Lord does things.

After the deaths of Christ and the original apostles -- perhaps unavoidably -- the church got away from the centralized leadership and a general apostasy resulted, necessitating a latter-day Restoration in a time when such a thing was less apt to occur.

Any thoughts why this top down (christ and the apostles) approach for the whole world still has a very clear skew to what's happening in the Western states?

On the other side (almost) of the world most of the bishops I've served with have a fairly relaxed attitude to most of the directives and programs coming down from Utah. It has often involved a cursory glance at the latest initiative or handbook update which quickly gets sent to the "circular file" in the corner of the room.