Local Leaders In Boston Stake Reduce 3-Hour Block - Sorta

[KevinG]

I hope they don't eliminate second hour Sunday School. When would the Saints find time to socialize in the hallway?

Edited November 24, 2015 by KevinG

[stemelbow]

I hope they don't eliminate second hour Sunday School. When would the Saints find to.e to socialize in the hallway?

The speaking with one another concerning the welfare of their souls in the hallways can be moved to any ol' time during a two hour block.

[KevinG]

The speaking with one another concerning the welfare of their souls in the hallways can be moved to any ol' time during a two hour block.

Yeah bit attending Sacrament and Priesthood/Relief Society is on the Temple Recommend Interview questions. Sunday School is optional. ;-)

Edited November 24, 2015 by KevinG

[stemelbow]

Yeah bit attending Sacrament and Priesthood/Relief Society is on the Temple Recommend Interview questions. Sunday School is optional. ;-)

Sure. But talking about the welfare of our souls with one another is on a as needed basis. I wouldn't recommend skipping meetings willy nilly.

[The Nehor]

Small branches sometimes reduce the overall block, shortening Sacrament meeting (maybe only having 1 speaker etc) and slightly shorter classes. So that isn't unheard of.

 

Didn't Otterson just make a big deal out of understanding the church handbook as a guideline and not hard fast rules? Didn't he indicate that local leaders could follow the spirit to address the needs of their members? Perhaps implementation of the handbook policies isn't as optional as he made it appear.

 

Yes, subject to veto by higher authorities which happened in this case.

[mfbukowski]

The first time I was set apart to serve as a bishopric counsellor, I was directed in my setting-apart blessing to become so familiar with the handbooks that I could be a 'living handbook' for our bishop. I've tried hard to live up to that charge from that moment. Our now-former bishop frequently points out that everything good that happened in our ward during his tenure (such as a doubling in sacrament meeting attendance) came directly from applying the directions in the handbooks. I guess all Latter-day Saints aren't renegades?

Our dear SP teaches the handbook at every meeting of the HC and Stake Bishopric.

 

Our stake is somewhat unusual in its circumstances.  We have gone through some radical changes and I suppose not all are on the same bandwagon yet.  I suppose others have less of a problem than we do.

[omni]

This is just bizarre that a SP would go so far off the reservation. As much as I sympathize with his reasoning for the change, I can't imagine actually doing so without direction from above.

On a side note, is there anyone here who would be disappointed if the church moved to a two hour block schedule?

[Steve-o]

Yeah bit attending Sacrament and Priesthood/Relief Society is on the Temple Recommend Interview questions. Sunday School is optional. ;-)

Is Relief Society part of the Temple Recommend question? I don't recall that but maybe it's because it doesn't apply to me. Sunday school may be optional but even if the others are required I don't recall anything that requires a certain length to those meetings. Couldn't they all be shortened if necessary?

[Steve-o]

This is just bizarre that a SP would go so far off the reservation. As much as I sympathize with his reasoning for the change, I can't imagine actually doing so without direction from above.

On a side note, is there anyone here who would be disappointed if the church moved to a two hour block schedule?

Why is this off the reservation? A Stake President presides over the unites in his stake. He can go so far as cancelling church in certain circumstances so why wouldn't he feel he had the authority to reduce meetings for other reasons?

 

I see this as a bold move but not as some kind of crazy, apostate, move done by someone off the reservation.

[mfbukowski]

This resonates with me (I've lived "out here" my whole life except for my days at BYU). There are many disconnects between Utah and wards in the "mission field", but in my experience the biggest one is there difference in time/effort that is required to participate in church functions. A family can reasonably accommodate all the church programs when they live within walking distance of church, seminary is a release-time class, and there are enough members so that husbands and wives are not both given significant leadership positions at the same time. But when the chapel is an hour drive round-trip, dad is in the bishopric and mom is the YW president, and so forth, the build up of church programs can become overwhelming. Members and their local leaders are confronted with the constant decision of whether to let some programs slide (and if so, which ones) or push themselves to the breaking point where the gospel becomes drudgery. 

 

If I could have one principle implemented it would be this: no new programs unless the church first cuts something of lesser value (basically a balanced budget approach). As one example, my family values our ward choir greatly, but when the stake began adding new meetings for the youth - missionary training, find/take/teach, firesides in kirtland, etc.- we had to decide to cut other involvement, including choir, or face the reality of zero family time on Sundays.

Our stake is huge but is in a metropolitan area and here we have major traffic problems, so I relate.  Some could make the drive to the stake center in 20 minutes at 3 am but few meetings are scheduled at that time.    That same drive could easily take nearly an hour even on a Sunday morning depending on traffic, so I can relate.  That might mean 1 and a half hours to two hours round trip.

 

Our stake recently merged with another and most of those members have to drive the farther distance and tend to be less affluent so they also have to deal with all the problems that presents in keeping families together.  There are also language problems- our mission teaches in many different languages.  Language problems mean communication problems and "getting the water to the end of the row" can be a serious issue.

 

I am sure Boston has many of these same problems.

[omni]

Why is this off the reservation? A Stake President presides over the unites in his stake. He can go so far as cancelling church in certain circumstances so why wouldn't he feel he had the authority to reduce meetings for other reasons?

I see this as a bold move but not as some kind of crazy, apostate, move done by someone off the reservation.

I certainly don't think this was done by a "crazy apostate" SP. However, canceling meetings temporarily for weather or other emergencies is one thing, instigating a pilot program of this magnitude without direction from above is really something else.

I could imagine something like this happening in an area of the world where the church is young and its leadership inexperienced, but in this situation you would expect an experienced leader who would understand the proper protocols.

[KevinG]

Here in the Atlanta area we are reminded of Brother Brigham's sermon on the handcart pioneers every time it snows.  Then we skedaddle home to avoid getting stranded in the mountains.

[omni]

Here in the Atlanta area we are reminded of Brother Brigham's sermon on the handcart pioneers every time it snows.  Then we skedaddle home to avoid getting stranded in the mountains.

 

Truly you are a modern-day pioneer!

[KevinG]

Truly you are a modern-day pioneer!

 

Tell me about it.  Our Stake is so far from the city we were the last to get broadband cable.  

[Gray]

This is just bizarre that a SP would go so far off the reservation. As much as I sympathize with his reasoning for the change, I can't imagine actually doing so without direction from above.

On a side note, is there anyone here who would be disappointed if the church moved to a two hour block schedule?

 

I have a hard time imagining anyone being disappointed about that. 

[strappinglad]

We need to get with the times. What with CCTV and Skype and i-tech most meetings could be done on line .The savings on fossil fuels alone boggle the mind.

[KevinG]

We need to get with the times. What with CCTV and Skype and i-tech most meetings could be done on line .The savings on fossil fuels alone boggle the mind.

 

Edited November 24, 2015 by KevinG

[The Nehor]

 

I have proposed the dissolution of several meetings. I even succeeded once. Once I determine a meeting is useless I usually stop attending in any case. Fortunately I do not have any of those right now.

[Rain]

This is just bizarre that a SP would go so far off the reservation. As much as I sympathize with his reasoning for the change, I can't imagine actually doing so without direction from above.

On a side note, is there anyone here who would be disappointed if the church moved to a two hour block schedule?

It depends. If the teacher basically just reads the lesson then I would have no problem cutting it. I can read on my own. If there is focused conversation on spiritual matters I would be disappointed. I get a lot out of those classes. Edited November 25, 2015 by Rain

[Scott Lloyd]

Even if this were true, somebody in some leadership position would take advantage of the extra time and schedule some auxiliary meetings.

 

 

Or more likely, members would fill the extra time with activities out of keeping with the Sabbath.

 

 

"The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath."

 

Well here's what I have in response:

 

13 ¶If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

 14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the Lord; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.

 

(Isaiah 58:13-14, boldface emphasis mine)

 

So do you wanna play dueling scriptural passages? I'm pretty good at that myself.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

This is just bizarre that a SP would go so far off the reservation. As much as I sympathize with his reasoning for the change, I can't imagine actually doing so without direction from above.

On a side note, is there anyone here who would be disappointed if the church moved to a two hour block schedule?

I'm of the same mind as Rain on this. It depends on what would be cut out in order to do the shortening.

 

I think we could do with less over-the-pulpit verbiage. I like the opportunity to interact with other Latter-day Saints in a classroom setting, whether you call it Sunday School or call it something else.

 

And I have already alluded to the fact that I would be very unhappy if music were to be de-emphasized in our worship services and meetings, whether it be congregational singing or choir and special musical performances. I got the distinct impression the stake presidency in Boston had in mind to do that, as choir rehearsals were one of the things they reportedly had in mind to reduce or cut out.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

It really becomes a question of how much in control local authorities feel.  Salt Lake is a long ways from Boston in a lot of ways.  Out here in the "mission field" there is less of a feeling of a centralized, cohesive church.  We have investigators pop in off the street who have just been going down the block visiting all the churches looking for one to go to.  They don't even know that "Mormons are different".  They are looking for a Praise Fellowship just like the one next door and start clapping after the music and wonder why everyone stares at them for doing so.

 

There is a feeling of isolation "out here" of circling the wagons, of being all alone in the wilderness without support, thousands of miles from church "civilization".  The differences are such that there is a feeling that "headquarters doesn't know how it really is in our neck of the woods and we gotta take care of our own".

 

When one is a bishop one feels like the "guy from the stake" is out to add more programs to his plate and make the bishop's life harder.  When one is a stake leader one wonders why these bishops refuse to follow directions.

 

I think it is less like that in Utah- I know we have discussed that jokingly, but I am convinced that the difference is real.  Driving downtown in your own city and seeing the Church Office Building tower and the SLC temple, and the Brigham Young house and monuments etc- in your back yard- I think just naturally gives one a clear notion of being at the center of a worldwide organization with central authority.

 

Out here in the boonies, you feel like Louis and Clark in the middle of no where, surrounded by the enemy waiting for a dispatch by telegraph that never comes while the secular "enemy" lurks behind every tree trying to lure away your members.  You want to keep them happy so they keep coming back, never thinking that "Headquarters" could possibly object to what you think needs to be done

 

I am convinced the psychology is really quite different "out here"

I can understand what you're saying, and I get your point.

 

On the other hand, with email, the Internet, text messaging, social media, satellite broadcasting and live Internet streaming, jet travel, etc., it just seems to me we should be less prone to distance decay in this day and age than we have ever been before, even earlier in my own lifetime.

 

Edited to add:

 

I just looked up the stake president in Boston. He is a native of Provo, educated at BYU, a former president and CEO of Dell Computers. Just sayin', I think the guy has been around the block in terms of leadership and understanding how things are supposed to be run in the Church.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

Small branches sometimes reduce the overall block, shortening Sacrament meeting (maybe only having 1 speaker etc) and slightly shorter classes. So that isn't unheard of.

 

 

I'm guessing that they don't do this without the knowledge and approval of Church leadership in a supervisory role. Again, the rapidity with the which the Boston stake was slapped down on this, indicates to me that they were loping off on their own without giving any attention at all to guidelines or proper order.

 

Didn't Otterson just make a big deal out of understanding the church handbook as a guideline and not hard fast rules? Didn't he indicate that local leaders could follow the spirit to address the needs of their members? Perhaps implementation of the handbook policies isn't as optional as he made it appear.

 

Nothing Otterson said indicates to me that local leaders are free to ignore or neglect guidance from higher authority. I daresay if the stake leaders in Boston had checked with their Area Seventy first -- or even just double-checked the handbook -- this whole scenario would have been avoided.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

I hope they don't eliminate second hour Sunday School. When would the Saints find time to socialize in the hallway?

You mean the Social Relations class?

[Scott Lloyd]

Yeah bit attending Sacrament and Priesthood/Relief Society is on the Temple Recommend Interview questions. Sunday School is optional. ;-)

I asked Correlation about that one day. It's not as "optional" as some might think.