sunstoned Posted October 31, 2015 Posted October 31, 2015 Interesting. Don't know if this is what happened, but I could see Elder Ballard directing the removal of the video rather than have it further feed an unseemly and unintended controversy. I'm fairly well acquainted with him, and it would not be out-of-character for him to do that. I think the whole frenzy of fault-finding associated with this is deplorable.Perhaps Mr. Ballard should look at this a constructive feedback.
california boy Posted October 31, 2015 Posted October 31, 2015 Why is an apostle talking about this? Did he run out of real gospel topics to discuss? Why is it that church leaders feel it is needful to advise and admonish members in most aspects of their personal lives? White shirts, facial hair, lipstick, style of jeans, number of earrings, body ink, when to marry, how to date, when to start a family, etc. This minutiae was not the focus of Christ's ministry. You bring up a really important issue in pointing this out. Is all it does is make people feel guilty over things they should have no guilt about. I know people who have tattoos that they got before the church got involved in telling people they shouldn't have them. And women who have more than the allowed ear piercings. Or people who don't have a white shirt to wear on sunday. All of these things push people further away from Christ because it makes them feel less than worthy. It is all nonsense in my opinion. And it is wrong. Outward appearance is not what is important in the gospel of Jesus Christ. Are women now suppose to feel guilty if they aren't wearing lipstick? Does anyone really believe that a person who wants to find an eternal companion just has to wear lipstick in order for that to happen? Yeah it is a tempest in a teapot. But it is also a reinforcement of a culture in the church around looks and outward appearance being confused with what is in a persons heart. 1
rodheadlee Posted October 31, 2015 Posted October 31, 2015 I've seen this video on a few facebook groups and forums. I think there's something of an over-reaction in many discussions with people being outraged. Elder Ballard is clearly making a joke. It's not that funny of a joke and seems a little bit in the realm of the "Trump gaffs" that Buzzfeed and Huffington post are delighting in mocking, but hopefully no believing LDS will think for a minute that he was speaking as anything other than a "man" rather than a "prophet."I suppose for some people, sexist humour is always offensive. The fact that I pause to even question whether it really is offensive might simply be because I have a slightly different chromosomal configuration to 50% of the world's population. Perhaps it's easy to be less offended than I ought to be.Is this just the old fashioned views of his generation that we can generously forgive and chuckle at? Is his fellow GA's comment a couple of years back that "women get the kind of men they dress for" (Elder Callister) more of the same? Is it time that Mormon male leaders stopped thinking they should have an opinion on how the entirety of female Mormons should dress themselves (whether speaking opinion or claimed revelation)? Or is this exactly the kind of messages that LDS leaders should spend their time communicating either in seriousness or in jest?It's a generational thing. Some days I sit around and watch old 70s -80s Tv shows, they are very un PC . Today's millennials are very good at internet rage. I hope they only mean about half of what they say. The message boards of today and the like can get very ugly. 2
saemo Posted October 31, 2015 Posted October 31, 2015 I guess the world has passed me by in that respect. I had never really thought much about it, but I was still under the general impression that many, if not most, women do wear lipstick in public. But I have to say that as I was on the train riding home last night and looked around, I could spot few if any lipstick wearers, even among what might be deemed the professional or business class. A fair and charitable way to view Elder Ballard's lipstick comment is as code for "make yourself presentable; put your best image forward," which is good advice to anyone in any age, time or circumstance."But piling on someone for innocently making a comment partly in jest and for using allusions and references from his own cultural and generational background is quite literally making a man an offender for a word. And that is despicable behavior.Oh my heck a post where I can agree with you!
bluebell Posted October 31, 2015 Posted October 31, 2015 Why is an apostle talking about this? Did he run out of real gospel topics to discuss? Why is it that church leaders feel it is needful to advise and admonish members in most aspects of their personal lives? White shirts, facial hair, lipstick, style of jeans, number of earrings, body ink, when to marry, how to date, when to start a family, etc. This minutiae was not the focus of Christ's ministry. Marriage, being one of the key aspects of the plan of salvation, is a gospel topic. 3
Calm Posted October 31, 2015 Posted October 31, 2015 Why is an apostle talking about this? Did he run out of real gospel topics to discuss? Why is it that church leaders feel it is needful to advise and admonish members in most aspects of their personal lives? White shirts, facial hair, lipstick, style of jeans, number of earrings, body ink, when to marry, how to date, when to start a family, etc. This minutiae was not the focus of Christ's ministry. I think many church leaders are treated and see themselves as a parental figure as well as a minister of the Gospel Members often talk about the Church as a family, especially on a local level, but also wider so our leaders often, imo, talk to us as if they were talking to their own children or grandchildren. I don't see this as a problem myself and like it, but it can occasionally lead to discomfort just like it does in small families. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted October 31, 2015 Posted October 31, 2015 Oh my heck a post where I can agree with you!This could be the start of something big. 1
saemo Posted October 31, 2015 Posted October 31, 2015 (edited) Wrong thread. Oops. Edited October 31, 2015 by saemo
Scott Lloyd Posted October 31, 2015 Posted October 31, 2015 Why is an apostle talking about this? Did he run out of real gospel topics to discuss? Why is it that church leaders feel it is needful to advise and admonish members in most aspects of their personal lives? White shirts, facial hair, lipstick, style of jeans, number of earrings, body ink, when to marry, how to date, when to start a family, etc. This minutiae was not the focus of Christ's ministry. You're kidding, right? Courtship, marriage and forming an eternal family unit are of vital, intense importance to many in the young single adult category in the Church. They are hungry for guidance and direction, and you're faulting an apostle for talking about it?There are many blessings we take for granted but that we should be grateful for. One of these is that the Brethren don't take counsel from their hostile and myopic critics. 3
Jeanne Posted October 31, 2015 Posted October 31, 2015 Wrong thread. Oops.I think wrong threads are great,,it is like paying bills and mailing the power bill to the cable co and making a car payment to the mortgage..things are postponed and eventually everything works out for the best.. 1
saemo Posted November 1, 2015 Posted November 1, 2015 I think wrong threads are great,,it is like paying bills and mailing the power bill to the cable co and making a car payment to the mortgage..things are postponed and eventually everything works out for the best.. I've only done that in the form of, paying the right amount to the wrong bill. Works out fine if it is overpaid, not so much if it is short!
canard78 Posted November 1, 2015 Author Posted November 1, 2015 There's a helpful rhetorical device: equating people who disagree with you with the spirits who followed Satan. Subtle.It's fairly typical for Bobbie. That's how he rolls. I completely agree that it should be possible to discuss the implications of what he said without getting into a frenzy on either side of the discussion. Calm's comment earlier was engaging the topic well for example, rather than indulging in the hyperbole of Bobbie's approach.
Calm Posted November 1, 2015 Posted November 1, 2015 She...Bobbieaware is apparently Teddieaware's wife.
canard78 Posted November 1, 2015 Author Posted November 1, 2015 She...Bobbieaware is apparently Teddieaware's wife.Really??? Bob and Ted? Well one things for sure, they must agree with each a lot because they sound very much like the same person in all their posts.
NEDRA Posted November 1, 2015 Posted November 1, 2015 I guess the world has passed me by in that respect. I had never really thought much about it, but I was still under the general impression that many, if not most, women do wear lipstick in public. But I have to say that as I was on the train riding home last night and looked around, I could spot few if any lipstick wearers, even among what might be deemed the professional or business class. A fair and charitable way to view Elder Ballard's lipstick comment is as code for "make yourself presentable; put your best image forward," which is good advice to anyone in any age, time or circumstance."But piling on someone for innocently making a comment partly in jest and for using allusions and references from his own cultural and generational background is quite literally making a man an offender for a word. And that is despicable behavior.If he had just made the lipstick comment, it wouldn't have been that bad, but to tell them to "stop walking around looking like men"--ouch! No woman who is straight and wants to attract men, much less marry one, wants to hear she looks like a man. I get that it was a joke. I think most people do. It's just as hurtful as if he were to jokingly kid an infertile couple at a gathering for young marrieds by saying, "Wear perfume! Stay home and don't come out until you're pregnant!" That's also neither kind not helpful.
Scott Lloyd Posted November 1, 2015 Posted November 1, 2015 If he had just made the lipstick comment, it wouldn't have been that bad, but to tell them to "stop walking around looking like men"--ouch! No woman who is straight and wants to attract men, much less marry one, wants to hear she looks like a man.I get that it was a joke. I think most people do. It's just as hurtful as if he were to jokingly kid an infertile couple at a gathering for young marrieds by saying, "Wear perfume! Stay home and don't come out until you're pregnant!" That's also neither kind not helpful.When I was single (and it took me quite a while to find my match), occasionally there would be admonitions from the general conference pulpit or elsewhere to the single adult men of the Church in their 30s and beyond. The message was generally along the lines of "Stop being so materialistic and acquisitive and get on with fulfilling your duty. Stop being afraid of accepting responsibility." Thing is, none of those admonitions really applied to me. I esteemed the prospect of a happy marriage and children more greatly than I did anything of material value, and I really didn't fear accepting the responsibility of being a provider and father. When the time came, I gladly accepted it. So, I suppose I could have been bitter and railed inwardly or outwardly (probably a good thing that the Internet and social media didn't exist back then) against the anointed servants of God. I resisted the temptation to do that and persuaded myself that the things they said were what some needed to hear, but that I shouldn't let them bother me if they didn't apply in my circumstances. A woman who does not walk around looking like a man need not be bothered by Elder Ballard's comment. 1
Russell C McGregor Posted November 3, 2015 Posted November 3, 2015 I was offended, just because he is suppose to know better. But I'd be offended if my own dad said it. Women are not chattel. Or a trophy. This isn't what he meant, but it might come off that way to women. My husband hates lipstick on women, so that's good for me I guess. It just wasn't appropriate, but my husband saying he doesn't like lipstick is almost as bad.So if a man says women look good wearing lipstick that's bad, and if he says women don't look good wearing lipstick, that's also bad.I'm glad we got that sorted out. Women can and should appear as they want, not to just to please others.And yet everyone dresses "to please others" in one way or another, all the time. That's why we dress up to go to work, down to dig in the garden, and up further to go out on the town. That's why police and soldiers and athletes wear uniforms. TV news anchors dress the way they do because their audiences expect it, and rappers do exactly the same thing. We're more than a shell. Also, I hate how some of the leaders start out their talks saying how good looking the crowd is or something to that affect. They need to see beyond that. No wonder Utah has so many women getting plastic surgery.Sorry, I don't see the connection. 2
ERayR Posted November 3, 2015 Posted November 3, 2015 (edited) When I was single (and it took me quite a while to find my match), Translated: Someone kind and charitable enough to take on a refinement project. Sorry I couldn't resist. Edited November 3, 2015 by ERayR
ERayR Posted November 3, 2015 Posted November 3, 2015 And yet everyone dresses "to please others" in one way or another, all the time. Not me. That's why I am often told that my kids dress me funny.
cynth Posted November 5, 2015 Posted November 5, 2015 A woman who does not walk around looking like a man need not be bothered by Elder Ballard's comment. There is so much wrong with this statement.
Tacenda Posted November 23, 2015 Posted November 23, 2015 I listened to Elder Ballard's grand daughter on Mormon Stories. Along the lines of the lipstick comment...he told her to lose some weight when she and her husband were struggling in their marriage or when they divorced, can't remember which. But she made sure he knew how deeply it hurt her for him to say that. And there again, it might just be a guy thing, but still very shallow thinking.
The Nehor Posted November 23, 2015 Posted November 23, 2015 I listened to Elder Ballard's grand daughter on Mormon Stories. Along the lines of the lipstick comment...he told her to lose some weight when she and her husband were struggling in their marriage or when they divorced, can't remember which. But she made sure he knew how deeply it hurt her for him to say that. And there again, it might just be a guy thing, but still very shallow thinking. It swings both ways. I have no idea why in American culture physical appearance is supposed to be exempt from any expectation of maintenance. If I met a girl and her personality shifted from pleasant to horrible after I got married many would sympathize but if she let herself go physically I am shallow for noticing. I have seen the same thing in reverse. A friend blew up at me because I tried to gently suggest that the reason his wife may be withdrawn and less interested in him is he went from fitness and diet enthusiast to coach potato and glutton within months of getting married and within a year had gained over 50 pounds. 1
Jeanne Posted November 23, 2015 Posted November 23, 2015 I listened to Elder Ballard's grand daughter on Mormon Stories. Along the lines of the lipstick comment...he told her to lose some weight when she and her husband were struggling in their marriage or when they divorced, can't remember which. But she made sure he knew how deeply it hurt her for him to say that. And there again, it might just be a guy thing, but still very shallow thinking.I saw this too..I couldn't believe it! What do women have to do to be so "special"? That worth could be packaged is weight unto itself. What that would have done to anyone's self esteem and yet not be even a part of the problem. This also implies that her husband is stupid!
HappyJackWagon Posted November 23, 2015 Posted November 23, 2015 (edited) I saw this too..I couldn't believe it! What do women have to do to be so "special"? That worth could be packaged is weight unto itself. What that would have done to anyone's self esteem and yet not be even a part of the problem. This also implies that her husband is stupid!It's a shallow assessment and assumes others are just as shallow. Of course there's wisdom in taking care of yourself but there is also wisdom in not acting like physical appearance, weight, lipstick and hair are the preeminent factors for a happy marriage or even dating success. Confidence and self-esteem are far more attractive than lipstick. Edited November 23, 2015 by HappyJackWagon 1
Recommended Posts