Getting Into A Frenzy About A Slather Of Lipstick

[Buckeye]

Seriously, though, the real challenge with these remarks is that very many men and women are currently following the counsel and not getting the desire results. That's where the real pain is. Brothers who have "woken up" and "looked around" at the wonderful sisters, but who, despite their best efforts, have not found any sisters that return their interest. Likewise, the many sisters who go to great lengths to make a good appearance only to have the men in their congregation fail to take any notice. The heartache is that (apparently) there is nothing else to offer these good saints than what they already are doing.

[Zakuska]

I'm surprised no one has brought up President Hinkley's... "one pair of sensible earings" command council.

Edited October 28, 2015 by Zakuska

[Storm Rider]

I'm surprised no one has brought up President Hinkley's... "one pair of sensible earings" command council.

 

yeah, did that already, but more toward the end of a rant.  

 

Geez, we have turned into an obnoxious lot of bleeding hearts so willing to take offense at every drop of the hat.  Then when chastised we bend so far over backwards to exaggerate on the intent of the message it is beyond stupid.  

 

This really is turning into a rather unpleasant place to spend my time.  Time to rethink things.

[thesometimesaint]

Of course we shouldn't judge a book by its cover. However if the Title doesn't interest us we'll probable not pick it up the first place. Such is human taste.

[KevinG]

[jkwilliams]

Somewhere between hypersensitivity and knee-jerk defensiveness, there ought to be room to discuss why some people find his remarks problematic.

[rockpond]

I've seen this video on a few facebook groups and forums. I think there's something of an over-reaction in many discussions with people being outraged. Elder Ballard is clearly making a joke.

It's not that funny of a joke and seems a little bit in the realm of the "Trump gaffs" that Buzzfeed and Huffington post are delighting in mocking, but hopefully no believing LDS will think for a minute that he was speaking as anything other than a "man" rather than a "prophet."

I suppose for some people, sexist humour is always offensive. The fact that I pause to even question whether it really is offensive might simply be because I have a slightly different chromosomal configuration to 50% of the world's population. Perhaps it's easy to be less offended than I ought to be.

Is this just the old fashioned views of his generation that we can generously forgive and chuckle at? Is his fellow GA's comment a couple of years back that "women get the kind of men they dress for" (Elder Callister) more of the same? Is it time that Mormon male leaders stopped thinking they should have an opinion on how the entirety of female Mormons should dress themselves (whether speaking opinion or claimed revelation)? Or is this exactly the kind of messages that LDS leaders should spend their time communicating either in seriousness or in jest?

 

It appears that they have removed the video of his address from LDS.org which is unfortunate because I think it is the video (rather than the quote snippets circulating the internet) that shows Elder Ballard was trying to be humorous.  It's at the beginning of his address and he is gently mocking the fact that they *always* speak to YSAs on the topic of marriage.

 

I think he's speaking as the grandfather/great-grandfather that he is.  Everyone should cut him some slack and please, LDS.org admins, put the video back online -- hearing and seeing him speak is what actually clarifies this.

[jkwilliams]

It appears that they have removed the video of his address from LDS.org which is unfortunate because I think it is the video (rather than the quote snippets circulating the internet) that shows Elder Ballard was trying to be humorous.  It's at the beginning of his address and he is gently mocking the fact that they *always* speak to YSAs on the topic of marriage.

 

I think he's speaking as the grandfather/great-grandfather that he is.  Everyone should cut him some slack and please, LDS.org admins, put the video back online -- hearing and seeing him speak is what actually clarifies this.

Agreed. As I said, I can see my own father saying something like this, and I would cut my dad some slack, just as I do for Elder Ballard. Obviously, this rubbed some people the wrong way, but I don't see anyone "raging" over it.

[Bobbieaware]

yeah, did that already, but more toward the end of a rant.  

 

Geez, we have turned into an obnoxious lot of bleeding hearts so willing to take offense at every drop of the hat.  Then when chastised we bend so far over backwards to exaggerate on the intent of the message it is beyond stupid.  

 

This really is turning into a rather unpleasant place to spend my time.  Time to rethink things.

Lately I've been wondering if the ranks of the losing side in the war in heaven were filled with unrealistic dreamers who raged at the unpleasent but immutable fact the there can be no existence without the full allowance for a diametric opposition in all things? In their futile attempt to somehow fashion an existence devoid of sorrow, negativity and unpleasentnes, did they unwittingly become the very personification of all they claimed to despise?

[jkwilliams]

Lately I've been wondering if the ranks of the losing side in the war in heaven were filled with unrealistic dreamers who raged at the unpleasent but immutable fact the there can be no existence without the full allowance for a diametric opposition in all things? In their futile attempt to somehow fashion an existence devoid of sorrow, negativity and unpleasentnes, did they unwittingly become the very personification of all they claimed to despise?

There's a helpful rhetorical device: equating people who disagree with you with the spirits who followed Satan. Subtle.

[bluebell]

Seriously, though, the real challenge with these remarks is that very many men and women are currently following the counsel and not getting the desire results. That's where the real pain is. Brothers who have "woken up" and "looked around" at the wonderful sisters, but who, despite their best efforts, have not found any sisters that return their interest. Likewise, the many sisters who go to great lengths to make a good appearance only to have the men in their congregation fail to take any notice. The heartache is that (apparently) there is nothing else to offer these good saints than what they already are doing.

 

I agree.

 

I get the feeling that his counsel was for those people who should be thinking about getting married, but aren't putting much effort into making that happen.  It's a little bit of an epidemic in some areas-good looking, productive, accomplished 20 somethings who are afraid of commitment and responsibility and so don't pursue marriage.

 

For those who are doing everything and not getting results, such counsel isn't helpful.  For those people though, there probably really isn't any general counsel that would be helpful.  

[mtomm]

Agreed. As I said, I can see my own father saying something like this, and I would cut my dad some slack, just as I do for Elder Ballard. Obviously, this rubbed some people the wrong way, but I don't see anyone "raging" over it.

 

I've seen a bit of raging over it. But we can always find extremes with most things an apostles says. You will find some people "rage" over a Kate Kelly quote that others think is no big deal. I find it interesting that the men to whom the lipstick advice were not offended by it! Imagine that! 

 

I asked my daughter to view the clip shared in this thread. She saw the title and said, "I  already don't want to hear it." I asked her to ignore the title and just listen and give me her first reaction,  She is 18 and has never worn makeup. 

 

Her first reaction: "Funny"

My question: so it didn't make you feel bad because you don't wear make-up?

Her answer:  No, he was joking.  Those comments are really last century.

 

So there you go, I was offended because I felt it was an unfair judgment of my daughter and she took it in the spirit in which it was given. I'm not raising a very good feminist...

She also went on to say that she knows the guys aren't very interested in her because she doesn't wear makeup. 

 

Her final comment:  Elder Ballard would probably hate to know that some women don't shave their legs. 

[KevinG]

Here is a nifty little article on how taking offense has become a national pastime, and not a healthy one.

 

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/09/the-coddling-of-the-american-mind/399356/

 

It is a long article but worth the read...  I found it particularly interesting since I now work in Higher Ed.  My favorite quote was, "I'm a liberal professor and my liberal students scare me."

Edited October 28, 2015 by KevinG

[KevinG]

Her final comment:  Elder Ballard would probably hate to know that some women don't shave their legs. 

 

I suspect he wouldn't care, or even encourage hairy legs, if he thought it would encourage more temple marriages.

[Calm]

For those who are doing everything and not getting results, such counsel isn't helpful. For those people though, there probably really isn't any general counsel that would be helpful.

Except maybe they have permission not to worry about it 24/7 and to take great joy and satisfaction in the life they have rather than putting it off for when life is supposedly going to be ideal.

You don't have to have everything in order to feel like you have everything.

Edited October 28, 2015 by Calm

[Calm]

So we had to do research projects in my psych research class and one guy did a survey on what guys were looking for in a wife. The one significant finding? Guys wanted their wives to shave their legs.

This was at BYU. There may have been many that chose devout, loving or some other characteristic, but not enough to register.

Looking back being more cynical, I want to look at the math to see he got it right, that he just didn't ask freshman and somehow to be able to demonstrate he actually ask real people and didn't just fudge his work after asking his roommates because he ran out of time or something.

[strappinglad]

As has been said, we are fighting biology here. I'm surprised that the evolutionists in the crowd haven't pointed out that making oneself more attractive to the opposite sex is how the species is continued. With many animals /birds it is the male who sports the fashion. In our current society it is the female, however, the male can still flash the high paying job and fancy car etc. Today some men use 'product' and skin moisturizers etc. which would have been unheard of 50 years ago ( except for Brillcream) . I have been told that there is an evolutionary reason why men like red lips. Anyone want to guess why high heels are still such a fashion requirement. I don't think it's because women find them sooooo comfortable.

[Paddy]

Lately I've been wondering if the ranks of the losing side in the war in heaven were filled with unrealistic dreamers who raged at the unpleasent but immutable fact the there can be no existence without the full allowance for a diametric opposition in all things? In their futile attempt to somehow fashion an existence devoid of sorrow, negativity and unpleasentnes, did they unwittingly become the very personification of all they claimed to despise?

Almost as funny as the lipstick joke.

[Bobbieaware]

Almost as funny as the lipstick joke.

I'd guess you're laughing past the graveyard.

[Scott Lloyd]

It appears that they have removed the video of his address from LDS.org which is unfortunate because I think it is the video (rather than the quote snippets circulating the internet) that shows Elder Ballard was trying to be humorous.  It's at the beginning of his address and he is gently mocking the fact that they *always* speak to YSAs on the topic of marriage.

 

I think he's speaking as the grandfather/great-grandfather that he is.  Everyone should cut him some slack and please, LDS.org admins, put the video back online -- hearing and seeing him speak is what actually clarifies this.

For once, a post I can get behind. I even gave you a rep point for it.

 

I think, though, that you are neglecting the possibility it was Elder Ballard himself and not "lds.org admins" who directed that the video be taken down. I hope it's not another tail-wagging-the-dog assumption you are succumbing to, similar to blaming Public Affairs for official Church statements.

[rockpond]

For once, a post I can get behind. I even gave you a rep point for it.

 

I think, though, that you are neglecting the possibility it was Elder Ballard himself and not "lds.org admins" who directed that the video be taken down. I hope it's not another tail-wagging-the-dog assumption you are succumbing to, similar to blaming Public Affairs for official Church statements.

 

No... I only named the website admins cause they are the ones who would actually do the work (or the clicking, whatever you want to call it).  I am confident that LDS.org web admins would not remove a video of an apostle's address without direction from above.

 

Thought I'll admit to being confused as to why they (whoever that is) would decide to remove it.  The out of context snippets that are already spread all over the web are the problem, NOT Elder Ballard's video.

[Scott Lloyd]

No... I only named the website admins cause they are the ones who would actually do the work (or the clicking, whatever you want to call it).  I am confident that LDS.org web admins would not remove a video of an apostle's address without direction from above.

 

Thought I'll admit to being confused as to why they (whoever that is) would decide to remove it.  The out of context snippets that are already spread all over the web are the problem, NOT Elder Ballard's video.

How old is the video? And how long does lds.org ordinarily leave such videos up? Is this an extraordinary move?

 

I'm asking because I don't know. I don't follow the website enough to know.

[rockpond]

How old is the video? And how long does lds.org ordinarily leave such videos up? Is this an extraordinary move?

 

I'm asking because I don't know. I don't follow the website enough to know.

 

My understanding is that the YSA devotional was this year.  And there are plenty of videos on the Broadcasts site that go back further than this year.

 

But, I don't know.  It may not be an extraordinary move.  The timing of its removal seems odd though if it didn't have anything to do with the controversy.  Perhaps it was just a matter of the page getting far too many hits and exceeding the site's dedicated bandwidth (I'm not well versed in such things).

[Scott Lloyd]

Here is a nifty little article on how taking offense has become a national pastime, and not a healthy one.

 

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/09/the-coddling-of-the-american-mind/399356/

 

It is a long article but worth the read...  I found it particularly interesting since I now work in Higher Ed.  My favorite quote was, "I'm a liberal professor and my liberal students scare me."

Just scanned it, but it looks to be an interesting piece. Hope to read it more thoroughly soon.

 

Reminds me of the link I have in my sig line. I applied it to the "Free BYU" movment, but I think it fits well this "coddling of the American mind" and the taking of offense as a national pastime. It's the Eagles song "Get Over It."

[Meadowchik]

Do we really expect people to date or marry someone they aren't attracted too though? Elder Ballard is perpetuating a biological fact-your ability to marry someone is determined by your attractiveness to them.

Do all men find lipstick attractive? No of course not. But I don't think any of us believe that Elder Ballard was being literal when he said that getting married was as simple as 'putting on lipstick'. The theory behind the joke is sound-you've got to attract the opposite sex if you want to get married. Put some effort into it.

It's cruel in some ways (biology typically is), but we can't wish it away just because it makes us uncomfortable.

I get the makeup or the nicer outfits on for one of two reasons, sometimes both:

1) Sometimes it's a boost because I feel like I look better that way.

2) I want to communicate to others that I care enough about them or the occassion to look my best.

Appearance is still a big deal, even in platonic, boring everyday encounters. I think it can be easy to underestimate how much we communicate in our dress and grooming, whatever our body shape, size, or material means. The apparent effort speaks something.