Getting Into A Frenzy About A Slather Of Lipstick

[mtomm]

It's a shallow assessment and assumes others are just as shallow.

 

Of course there's wisdom in taking care of yourself but there is also wisdom in not acting like physical appearance, weight, lipstick and hair are the preeminent factors for a happy marriage or even dating success. Confidence and self-esteem are far more attractive than lipstick.

 

The bolded part is so true. Sometimes I would wonder what guys saw in a few of my roommates, because it wasn't about looks, that was for sure but they seem to have more dates that anyone else. And, no, it wasn't because dating them provided fringe benefits.

[Scott Lloyd]

I thought this thread had died down. How did it flare up again?

 

Is it all due to Elder Ballard's granddaughter pulling a Martha Nibley Beck on her grandfather?

Edited November 23, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Buckeye]

I thought this thread had died down. How did it flare up again?

 

Is it all due to Elder Ballard's granddaughter pulling a Martha Nibley Beck on her grandfather?

 

I listened to the interview. Rape was never alleged. You can critique her decision to share personal info (I'd probably agree with you), but don't oversell it. There's a difference between publicizing poor counsel from your grandfather (which hasn't been rebutted) verses alleging rape (which was strongly contested by other family members).

Edited November 23, 2015 by Buckeye

[Scott Lloyd]

I listened to the interview. Rape was never alleged. You can critique her decision to share personal info (I'd probably agree with you), but don't oversell it. There's a difference between publicizing poor counsel from your grandfather (which hasn't been rebutted) verses alleging rape (which was strongly contested by other family members).

I wasn't saying there was allegation of rape.

 

I meant to convey the concept of the deplorable circumstance of a somewhat ungrateful and disrespectful child (or, in this case, a grandchild) publicly disparaging a good man.

 

That's all. I didn't mean to oversell it.

 

As for rebutting the allegation, I don't intend to dignify it by getting into a back-and-forth about it (and you know Elder Ballard is not going to do it; he has more class than the granddaughter in that respect).

Edited November 23, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[HappyJackWagon]

I wasn't saying there was allegation of rape.

 

I meant to convey the concept of the deplorable circumstance of a somewhat ungrateful and disrespectful child (or, in this case, a grandchild) publicly disparaging a good man.

 

That's all. I didn't mean to oversell it.

 

As for rebutting the allegation, I don't intend to dignify it by getting into a back-and-forth about it (and you know Elder Ballard is not going to do it; he has more class than the granddaughter in that respect).

Publicly criticizing family is poor form and feels like a betrayal. I think the granddaughter was speaking for therapeutic effect, but despite her efforts to be "balanced" I wasn't a fan of this MS interview.

 

That said, her claim that her grandfather counseled her to lose weight as a way of improving her marriage relationship seems reasonable based on his past comments. It's unfortunate and it would be great if he recognized that these kinds of comments not only land him in hot water but also hurt peoples feelings. He doesn't seem to have learned that lesson yet.

[KevinG]

A one sided report from a disaffected relative does not an error in judgement make.  And respecting the privacy of a family member, church member, etc. also means that family members of public figures should be circumspect.  The alternative is to make oneself a public figure.  That cuts both ways.

[Ares]

No more comments about other posters.  Add comments only if you have substance to add to the discussion.

[Scott Lloyd]

A one sided report from a disaffected relative does not an error in judgement make.  And respecting the privacy of a family member, church member, etc. also means that family members of public figures should be circumspect.  The alternative is to make oneself a public figure.  That cuts both ways.

It's a harsh fact of life that one's potential appeal as a marriage partner is in large measure determined by one's physical appearance. It can be an act of kindness on the part of a trusted friend or family member to point that out, especially if the advice is taken to heart.

 

I still say say Elder Ballard doesn't deserve to be pilloried and vilified in public for what had to have been motivated by genuine caring, in an act of public venting that  amounted to pouring fuel on a smouldering fire.

 

Not cool.

Edited November 23, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[The Nehor]

Publicly criticizing family is poor form and feels like a betrayal. I think the granddaughter was speaking for therapeutic effect, but despite her efforts to be "balanced" I wasn't a fan of this MS interview.

 

That said, her claim that her grandfather counseled her to lose weight as a way of improving her marriage relationship seems reasonable based on his past comments. It's unfortunate and it would be great if he recognized that these kinds of comments not only land him in hot water but also hurt peoples feelings. He doesn't seem to have learned that lesson yet.

 

And feelings are sacrosanct now too? I hate this world.

[Tacenda]

I agree...she may have gone too far in publicising this instance with Elder Ballard, and I probably shouldn't have propagated it. But I believe she did a good job overall. I guess she felt the need to confess her sins openly and wanted others to be open as well. And think the tipping point was the latest church policy. She focused alot on mental illness, and she maybe wanted to destigmatise it by being open with her own form of it. She also mentions that her grandfather lacked empathy, I wonder if it's his era, the younger generation seem to be more non judgemental. I don't know what it might be. Haven't met Elder Ballard, so I definitely can't judge.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Tacenda

[The Nehor]

I agree...she may have gone too far in publicising this instance with Elder Ballard, and I probably shouldn't have propagated it. But I believe she did a good job overall. I guess she felt the need to confess her sins openly and wanted others to be open as well. And think the tipping point was the latest church policy. She focused alot on mental illness, and she maybe wanted to destigmatise it by being open with her own form of it. She also mentions that her grandfather lacked empathy, I wonder if it's his era, the younger generation seem to more non judgemental. I don't know what it might be. Haven't met Elder Ballard, so I definitely can't judge.

 

I think it is more that many in the younger generation can't handle even loving criticism.

[HappyJackWagon]

And feelings are sacrosanct now too? I hate this world.

As a church leader, presumably with a desire to provide pastoral care, I would think he and others would care about the feelings of others.

Growing up my father was loving but with one sister he seemed to focus on her need to lose weight. She wasn't morbidly obese or anything and she is in fact quite pretty, but her self-esteem is shot. She's never dated. Never married and is pushing 40. She has so much to offer yet she still feels inadequate because she's not skinny. The lack of confidence and self-esteem has blocked her in some ways. My dad wasn't trying to be cruel but he thought that if she ever wanted to find a man she would need to lose weight and he told her this. It has had a terrible impact on her. So yes, feelings matter a lot.

 

Oh, and please take a step a way from the edge. Don't jump

[The Nehor]

As a church leader, presumably with a desire to provide pastoral care, I would think he and others would care about the feelings of others.

Growing up my father was loving but with one sister he seemed to focus on her need to lose weight. She wasn't morbidly obese or anything and she is in fact quite pretty, but her self-esteem is shot. She's never dated. Never married and is pushing 40. She has so much to offer yet she still feels inadequate because she's not skinny. The lack of confidence and self-esteem has blocked her in some ways. My dad wasn't trying to be cruel but he thought that if she ever wanted to find a man she would need to lose weight and he told her this. It has had a terrible impact on her. So yes, feelings matter a lot.

 

Oh, and please take a step a way from the edge. Don't jump

 

Feelings are important but they are not a trump card you can play that forces action. Sacrosanct implies something is inviolable which I am pretty sure no one would argue that anything that hurts someones feelings is completely off-limits under all circumstances except for the most emotionally fragile delicate flower dyed-in-the-wool victim who probably needs their feelings crushed regularly until they join the rest of us in reality.

 

I do not know about this situation. He is being judged by hearsay by what I suspect is an incredibly unreliable witness. If Elder Oaks were to come out and claim publicly that she is a habitual liar would we applaud his forthright analysis or would the same people wringing their hands now wring them harder because he should have kept silent and avoided publicly humiliating her?

[HappyJackWagon]

Feelings are important but they are not a trump card you can play that forces action. Sacrosanct implies something is inviolable which I am pretty sure no one would argue that anything that hurts someones feelings is completely off-limits under all circumstances except for the most emotionally fragile delicate flower dyed-in-the-wool victim who probably needs their feelings crushed regularly until they join the rest of us in reality.

 

I do not know about this situation. He is being judged by hearsay by what I suspect is an incredibly unreliable witness. If Elder Oaks were to come out and claim publicly that she is a habitual liar would we applaud his forthright analysis or would the same people wringing their hands now wring them harder because he should have kept silent and avoided publicly humiliating her?

It would probably be more appropriate if her grandfather, Elder Ballard, actually made the claim   I have no way of knowing for sure if Ballard said the things his granddaughter claimed. But I do know it fits the kind of philosophy and language he's used before. So it is not unreasonable to believe he was consistent in how he sometimes speaks insensitively to his family and how he speaks to strangers.

 

I haven't seen anyone claim feelings are "sacrosanct" but it's important to remember that they matter and that there is value in speaking with kindness and empathy instead of sharing personal opinions that could offend.

[The Nehor]

It would probably be more appropriate if her grandfather, Elder Ballard, actually made the claim   I have no way of knowing for sure if Ballard said the things his granddaughter claimed. But I do know it fits the kind of philosophy and language he's used before. So it is not unreasonable to believe he was consistent in how he sometimes speaks insensitively to his family and how he speaks to strangers.

 

I haven't seen anyone claim feelings are "sacrosanct" but it's important to remember that they matter and that there is value in speaking with kindness and empathy instead of sharing personal opinions that could offend.

 

Stop talking about your mother like that!

 

Oh, I know you did not actually say anything but it is certainly consistent with the philosophy and tone of voice I have heard you use in other communications so it is not unreasonable to believe you are saying it.

 

Stop it! Your mother's feelings matter!

[KevinG]

Plenty of people act as though feelings are sacrosanct. At least more so than obedience to the laws of the gospel. Talk about trading your birthright for a mess of pottage.

[HappyJackWagon]

Stop talking about your mother like that!

 

Oh, I know you did not actually say anything but it is certainly consistent with the philosophy and tone of voice I have heard you use in other communications so it is not unreasonable to believe you are saying it.

 

Stop it! Your mother's feelings matter!

Ridiculous.

 

If I made sexist comments in public and then my mother made a public claim that I said sexist things to her as well, it would be reasonable to think there was some truth to that. If it's verifiable that I've said sexist things even a false claim of additional sexist remarks would not remove my guilt.

 

The granddaughter's claims are reasonable based on his past comments.

 

Now if she claimed that her grandfather confessed to "hating babies" that would be much more suspicious because there is nothing in his behavior or words that would be consistent with that claim. See the difference?

[The Nehor]

Ridiculous.

 

If I made sexist comments in public and then my mother made a public claim that I said sexist things to her as well, it would be reasonable to think there was some truth to that. If it's verifiable that I've said sexist things even a false claim of additional sexist remarks would not remove my guilt.

 

The granddaughter's claims are reasonable based on his past comments.

 

Now if she claimed that her grandfather confessed to "hating babies" that would be much more suspicious because there is nothing in his behavior or words that would be consistent with that claim. See the difference?

 

I never said your comments about your mother were sexist. Seems suspicious that you jumped directly to that conclusion. What are you hiding?

 

I don't buy that Elder Ballard's public comments are "consistent" with his granddaughter's accusations and that they support them in any way. Then again I am not convinced that his counsel was bad in his public comments or if he did give the alleged counsel that it was bad either.

[KevinG]

I'm still not impressed with her taking private comments public.  I've said plenty to my oldest son about watching his weight and diet now that he is out of military service and not exercising as regularly.  

 

Out of context anything can sound offensive, even those things said from compassion and caring.

[Steve-o]

I'm still not impressed with her taking private comments public.  I've said plenty to my oldest son about watching his weight and diet now that he is out of military service and not exercising as regularly.  

 

Out of context anything can sound offensive, even those things said from compassion and caring.

I agree about making private comments public.

[KevinG]

I agree about making private comments public.

 

This should be a lesson to everyone.  A great way to get rep points is to say you agree with me.

 

[Scott Lloyd]

With all this talk about feelings (woh, woh, woh, feelings) and whether or not Elder Ballard has "empathy," I gotta cite my personal experience.

 

I've interacted with him for many years to the point he's on a first-name basis with me (though I would never address him as anything other than "Elder Ballard") and I've observed him for many years before that, going back to my college days when I first saw him speak at a BYU devotional.

 

He has always come across to me as being very avuncular and caring. One day, at a seminar for new mission presidents at the MTC in Provo, he greeted me briefly in the hallway and said, "I'm proud of you." Just out of the blue. A little thing, but I have cherished it.

 

I was privileged to be present one evening when a group of men who had been youth in the ward where Elder Ballard had served as  bishop, and later as their priests quorum adviser, gathered with him for a reunion. Being a fly on the wall, as it were, and witnessing the interaction between these men -- now grown with children and grandchildren -- and their former quorum adviser was a memorable experience for me. It struck me they were fortunate indeed to have had this relationship with him.

 

Just some stream-of-consciousness ruminations to convey the message that the Elder Ballard I know is not callous or unfeeling or insensitive.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[HappyJackWagon]

With all this talk about feelings (woh, woh, woh, feelings) and whether or not Elder Ballard has "empathy," I gotta cite my personal experience.

 

I've interacted with him for many years to the point he's on a first-name basis with me (though I would never address him as anything other than "Elder Ballard") and I've observed him for many years before that, going back to my college days when I first saw him speak at a BYU devotional.

 

He has always come across to me as being very avuncular and caring. One day, at a seminar for new mission presidents at the MTC in Provo, he greeted me briefly in the hallway and said, "I'm proud of you." Just out of the blue. A little thing, but I have cherished it.

 

I was privileged to be present one evening when a group of men who had been youth in the ward where Elder Ballard had served as  bishop, and later as their priests quorum adviser, gathered with him for a reunion. Being a fly on the wall, as it were, and witnessing the interaction between these men -- now grown with children and grandchildren -- and their former quorum adviser was a memorable experience for me. It struck me they were fortunate indeed to have had this relationship with him.

 

Just some stream-of-consciousness ruminations to convey the message that the Elder Ballard I know is not callous or unfeeling or insensitive.

Cool stories. Thanks for sharing. I always enjoy hearing first hand accounts.

 

In the cases of your personal accounts and that of Elder Ballard's granddaughter, we are required to judge the credibility of the stories. I doubt that neither your experience nor the granddaughter's are universally representative of Elder Ballard, either in the positive or the negative.

[Russell C McGregor]

With all this talk about feelings (woh, woh, woh, feelings) and whether or not Elder Ballard has "empathy," I gotta cite my personal experience.

 

I've interacted with him for many years to the point he's on a first-name basis with me (though I would never address him as anything other than "Elder Ballard") and I've observed him for many years before that, going back to my college days when I first saw him speak at a BYU devotional.

 

He has always come across to me as being very avuncular and caring. One day, at a seminar for new mission presidents at the MTC in Provo, he greeted me briefly in the hallway and said, "I'm proud of you." Just out of the blue. A little thing, but I have cherished it.

 

I was privileged to be present one evening when a group of men who had been youth in the ward where Elder Ballard had served as  bishop, and later as their priests quorum adviser, gathered with him for a reunion. Being a fly on the wall, as it were, and witnessing the interaction between these men -- now grown with children and grandchildren -- and their former quorum adviser was a memorable experience for me. It struck me they were fortunate indeed to have had this relationship with him.

 

Just some stream-of-consciousness ruminations to convey the message that the Elder Ballard I know is not callous or unfeeling or insensitive.

 

But that's got nothing to do with the "Throw Grandpa Under the Bus" industry among fringe or disaffected Mormons.

 

Steve Benson. Martha Beck. And now this lady.

Oh well.

 

[HappyJackWagon]

But that's got nothing to do with the "Throw Grandpa Under the Bus" industry among fringe or disaffected Mormons.

 

Steve Benson. Martha Beck. And now this lady.

Oh well.

 

3 over 20+ years is an industry? It doesn't sound very vibrant.