Getting Into A Frenzy About A Slather Of Lipstick

[canard78]

I've seen this video on a few facebook groups and forums. I think there's something of an over-reaction in many discussions with people being outraged. Elder Ballard is clearly making a joke.

It's not that funny of a joke and seems a little bit in the realm of the "Trump gaffs" that Buzzfeed and Huffington post are delighting in mocking, but hopefully no believing LDS will think for a minute that he was speaking as anything other than a "man" rather than a "prophet."

I suppose for some people, sexist humour is always offensive. The fact that I pause to even question whether it really is offensive might simply be because I have a slightly different chromosomal configuration to 50% of the world's population. Perhaps it's easy to be less offended than I ought to be.

Is this just the old fashioned views of his generation that we can generously forgive and chuckle at? Is his fellow GA's comment a couple of years back that "women get the kind of men they dress for" (Elder Callister) more of the same? Is it time that Mormon male leaders stopped thinking they should have an opinion on how the entirety of female Mormons should dress themselves (whether speaking opinion or claimed revelation)? Or is this exactly the kind of messages that LDS leaders should spend their time communicating either in seriousness or in jest?

[stemelbow]

When these guys talk in front of someone else, it could potentially be heard by many others these days. I'd say be more thoughtful in how they phrase things.

I can see how it comes off as insensitive to women. I didn't give the whole of it a listen, but I heard about this from different people. It's not that it's easy. And it's not that women look like men if they don't have lipstick on. In many areas there are many more young women than men that are active in the Church.

[jkwilliams]

I didn't find it egregiously offensive, just reflective of the old notion that the men are to be the active seekers of spouses, and it's women's job to make themselves attractive for the seekers and passively wait for the boys to "wake up." I don't think his attempt at humor was supposed to be thoughtful counsel on courtship, just a silly joke that fell a bit flat.

[Buckeye]

When I watched the video my first thought was "gee, it sounds like he's channeling J. Golden."  Sure enough, here's some gems from one of my favorite apostles:

 

 

 

A Utahn named Lorraine Young relates a story passed down by her mother, who asked the church leader his opinion of cosmetics. “At that time, for women to use make-up was frowned upon. Someone asked J. Golden what he thought about that and he said, ‘Well, a little paint never hurt any old barn,’” she says.

 

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865575063/KUED-review-Uncle-Golden-recalls-stimulating-church-leader.html?pg=all

 

 

 

In Brigham City, he admonished the church members, “This city looks like hell. You need to clean things up. Mow the grass. Paint your houses and barns. And you sisters, you could stand a little paint yourselves.”

 

http://sumophatchef.blogspot.com/2012/08/stupid-other-swear-words-and-j-golden.html

 

 

My take? I can see how some sisters could (maybe even should) be offended. I'm quite sure Elder Ballard meant no harm. I'm quite sure I've heard similar, even harsher, jokes by bishops and stake presidents. Heck, I've put my foot in my mouth quite a few times myself - pretty much anytime I make a comment in a sacrament talk that begins "I know Sister [buckeye] is going to kill me for this, but .... "  

 

Mostly, I think this is a result of having a calling where you're required to speak (and inspire) day after day for decades until you die. Eventually you run out material and rehash things you or others have said before. We see that a lot in President Monson lately. Anyone who speaks as often as an apostle is going to make a minor misstep from time to time. I'm sure I'd be batting somewhere south of .800 if it were my calling.

 

I give Elder Ballard a pass on the condition that he is willing to take a joke as easily as he is to make one. In my (limited) experience, I think it safe to say that he is.

[Traela]

I rarely wear lipstick (or any makeup) and I'm not offended.

[Avatar4321]

People will always find a reason to be offended if they want. Meanwhile the good counsel is ignored.

[sethpayne]

When these guys talk in front of someone else, it could potentially be heard by many others these days. I'd say be more thoughtful in how they phrase things.

I can see how it comes off as insensitive to women. I didn't give the whole of it a listen, but I heard about this from different people. It's not that it's easy. And it's not that women look like men if they don't have lipstick on. In many areas there are many more young women than men that are active in the Church.

 

I agree stem.  Elder Ballard probably should have used another joke.  But to be fair he drags out the good ole' "you men aren't' married because you just aren't trying hard enough" silliness.  So I think this is a case of Ballard referencing some very outdated ideas.  But I'll say no more lest I begin mansplaining.....  

Edited October 28, 2015 by sethpayne

[Tacenda]

I was offended, just because he is suppose to know better. But I'd be offended if my own dad said it. Women are not chattel. Or a trophy. This isn't what he meant, but it might come off that way to women. My husband hates lipstick on women, so that's good for me I guess. It just wasn't appropriate, but my husband saying he doesn't like lipstick is almost as bad. Women can and should appear as they want, not to just to please others. We're more than a shell. Also, I hate how some of the leaders start out their talks saying how good looking the crowd is or something to that affect. They need to see beyond that. No wonder Utah has so many women getting plastic surgery.

Edited October 28, 2015 by Tacenda

[sethpayne]

I was offended, just because he is suppose to know better. But I'd be offended if my own dad said it. Women are not chattel.

 

Tacenda -- serious question.  He made a bad joke that was offensive to both men and women.  What does his stupid joke have to do with women being chattel?  

[bluebell]

It didn't bother me any.  All i heard was, girls, try to look attractive, boys, pay attention to the girls.  It's not advice that will solve every problem but it's still pretty reasonable advice.

[Buckeye]

Tacenda -- serious question.  He made a bad joke that was offensive to both men and women.  What does his stupid joke have to do with women being chattel?  

 

I think she's saying that his comments attribute value to women based on their looks rather than something more substantive. Basically, that women are baubles whose worth, like any other piece of chattel, is determined by whether a person who really counts (read: man) likes to look at her.

[ERayR]

I was offended, just because he is suppose to know better. But I'd be offended if my own dad said it. Women are not chattel. Or a trophy. This isn't what he meant, but it might come off that way to women. My husband hates lipstick on women, so that's good for me I guess. It just wasn't appropriate, but my husband saying he doesn't like lipstick is almost as bad. Women can and should appear as they want, not to just to please others. We're more than a shell. Also, I hate how some of the leaders start out their talks saying how good looking the crowd is or something to that affect. They need to see beyond that. No wonder Utah has so many women getting plastic surgery.

 

Tacenda

No offense meant but what wouldn't offend you at some time or another?

[bluebell]

I think she's saying that his comments attribute value to women based on their looks rather than something more substantive. Basically, that women are baubles whose worth, like any other piece of chattel, is determined by whether a person who really counts (read: man) likes to look at her.

 

That could be what Tacenda was talking about, but if it was, i think it's reading a lot into Ballard's words. 

[jkwilliams]

I was offended, just because he is suppose to know better. But I'd be offended if my own dad said it. Women are not chattel. Or a trophy. This isn't what he meant, but it might come off that way to women. My husband hates lipstick on women, so that's good for me I guess. It just wasn't appropriate, but my husband saying he doesn't like lipstick is almost as bad. Women can and should appear as they want, not to just to please others. We're more than a shell. Also, I hate how some of the leaders start out their talks saying how good looking the crowd is or something to that affect. They need to see beyond that. No wonder Utah has so many women getting plastic surgery.

Yeah, it was sexist and offensive for the reasons you state. I guess I just cut older people a little slack for stuff like that. I can see my father saying something like that. I would cringe and think he was being sexist.

And I agree that we as a people (LDS and the broader culture) are far too focused on how people look. I once went to a therapist in Provo, and when I looked at his resume, it was clear he was heavily involved in church activity, and I was a little worried because I was seeking help because I was having trouble navigating my faith crisis. When I got there, he was a little late, so I had to wait. A few minutes later, a hispanic guy rode up on a Harley. He had a long pony tail, lots of tattoos, a skull ring, and was dressed in leathers and a Metallic t-shirt. This was my therapist, and he was great. So, I'm just as guilty as anyone else of judging by appearance, but I agree that we could all use some counsel discouraging that kind of judging, but Elder Ballard was sort of perpetuating that.

In short, it was a poor attempt at humor, and I don't blame anyone for being offended. It's a good thing my father always taught his children to expect human failure from church leaders (perhaps especially from leaders). As my sister says, we've never been disappointed by a leader because of my dad's teaching.

Edited October 28, 2015 by jkwilliams

[jkwilliams]

Tacenda

No offense meant but what wouldn't offend you at some time or another?

Are you suggesting that Tacenda is prone to taking offense or perpetually offended? That's not very nice at all.

[sethpayne]

I think she's saying that his comments attribute value to women based on their looks rather than something more substantive. Basically, that women are baubles whose worth, like any other piece of chattel, is determined by whether a person who really counts (read: man) likes to look at her.

 

Ah.  Ok.  I can see that.  I don't agree that Elder Ballard had anythign like that in mind.  But I do understand the underlying cultural implications which are, as you point out, problematic.

 

Oh... and I still don't like that he called men lazy when it comes to dating/marriage!  I married later in life and can tell you it stinks being a single dude over 26 in Utah County.  Trust me ... I was doing the best I could but in my case, I think it was *my* looks scaring all the girls away.  Here's my BYU graduation photo:

 

 

Go cougs!

Edited October 28, 2015 by sethpayne

[ERayR]

Are you suggesting that Tacenda is prone to taking offense or perpetually offended? That's not very nice at all.

 

I am sorry for not being nice.  I am a crotchity old man this morning but if you don't believe me just browse her posts. 

[ERayR]

Ah.  Ok.  I can see that.  I don't agree that Elder Ballard had anythign like that in mind.  But I do understand the underlying cultural implications which are, as you point out, problematic.

 

Oh... and I still don't like that he called men lazy when it comes to dating/marriage!  I married later in life and can tell you it stinks being a single dude over 26 in Utah County.  Trust me ... I was doing the best I could but in my case, I think it was *my* looks scaring all the girls away.  Here's my BYU graduation photo:

 

 

Go cougs!

 

It stinks being a single dude over 60 too.

[jkwilliams]

I am sorry for not being nice.  I am a crotchity old man this morning but if you don't believe me just browse her posts. 

I've always thought Tacenda was one of the more thoughtful and intelligent posters here, and I'm glad she sticks around.

[bluebell]

So, I'm just as guilty as anyone else of judging by appearance, but I agree that we could all use some counsel discouraging that kind of judging, but Elder Ballard was sort of perpetuating that.

 

 

Do we really expect people to date or marry someone they aren't attracted too though?  Elder Ballard is perpetuating a biological fact-your ability to marry someone is determined by your attractiveness to them.   

 

Do all men find lipstick attractive?  No of course not.  But I don't think any of us believe that Elder Ballard was being literal when he said that getting married was as simple as 'putting on lipstick'.  The theory behind the joke is sound-you've got to attract the opposite sex if you want to get married.   Put some effort into it.

 

It's cruel in some ways (biology typically is), but we can't wish it away just because it makes us uncomfortable.  

[ERayR]

I've always thought Tacenda was one of the more thoughtful and intelligent posters here, and I'm glad she sticks around.

 

Oh I am not suggesting she leave.  Shucks she would be sorely missed.  I hope she sticks around for a long, long time.

[Tacenda]

I am sorry for not being nice. I am a crotchity old man this morning but if you don't believe me just browse her posts.

ERayR, I never thought of myself that way in most things in life. But maybe you're right when it comes to some leaders treating women as property. That's when it might happen. Can you give me some quotes I've said in a PM? Or will that make you a little more crotchety?

[BlueDreams]

I wasn't offended and I'm his target audience. It's a bit of a head scratch-er for a few who may take it a little too seriously because it's so old school and women around these parts usually do spend some time looking nice. But I don't mind. 

 

For the record, sometimes I wear makeup. Sometimes I don't. I can't remember the last time I wore lipstick.

[ERayR]

Do we really expect people to date or marry someone they aren't attracted too though?  Elder Ballard is perpetuating a biological fact-your ability to marry someone is determined by your attractiveness to them.   

 

Do all men find lipstick attractive?  No of course not.  But I don't think any of us believe that Elder Ballard was being literal when he said that getting married was as simple as 'putting on lipstick'.  The theory behind the joke is sound-you've got to attract the opposite sex if you want to get married.   Put some effort into it.

 

It's cruel in some ways (biology typically is), but we can't wish it away just because it makes us uncomfortable.  

 

My thought exactly but I was having trouble expressing it as well as you. 

 

As I said I am a crotchity old man this morning.

[jkwilliams]

Do we really expect people to date or marry someone they aren't attracted too though?  Elder Ballard is perpetuating a biological fact-your ability to marry someone is determined by your attractiveness to them.   

 

Do all men find lipstick attractive?  No of course not.  But I don't think any of us believe that Elder Ballard was being literal when he said that getting married was as simple as 'putting on lipstick'.  The theory behind the joke is sound-you've got to attract the opposite sex if you want to get married.   Put some effort into it.

 

It's cruel in some ways (biology typically is), but we can't wish it away just because it makes us uncomfortable.  

I understand that. The issue for me (and apparently I'm not alone) is that the counsel to attract the opposite sex is always aimed at women, not men. In this case, the men are just supposed to "wake up" and seek a wife, but the women are told to make themselves attractive. Last I checked, women don't tend to marry people they don't find attractive, but no one is telling men to make themselves more attractive.

I wasn't particularly offended by his remarks. Like I said, I figured it was just an old man saying something that would have worked maybe 50 years ago. I could definitely see my 80-year-old father saying something like that. That said, I understand why some people found it offensive.