Getting Into A Frenzy About A Slather Of Lipstick

[Calm]

My understanding is that the YSA devotional was this year.  And there are plenty of videos on the Broadcasts site that go back further than this year.

 

But, I don't know.  It may not be an extraordinary move.  The timing of its removal seems odd though if it didn't have anything to do with the controversy.  Perhaps it was just a matter of the page getting far too many hits and exceeding the site's dedicated bandwidth (I'm not well versed in such things).

As far as I can tell, it was given 4 nights ago.

[Scott Lloyd]

As far as I can tell, it was given 4 nights ago.

Interesting.

 

Don't know if this is what happened, but I could see Elder Ballard directing the removal of the video rather than have it further feed an unseemly and unintended controversy.

 

I'm fairly well acquainted with him, and it would not be out-of-character for him to do that.

 

I think the whole frenzy of fault-finding associated with this is deplorable.

Edited October 29, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Calm]

Appearance is still a big deal, even in platonic, boring everyday encounters. I think it can be easy to underestimate how much we communicate in our dress and grooming, whatever our body shape, size, or material means. The apparent effort speaks something.

I do agree, I just wish that the idea when talked about was consistently more about total effort and not focusing specifically on makeup or ties as something generic can be applied to both men and women and be adapted by anyone depending on what their routine is for putting a little extra effort into showing they care, both for themselves and the people they are with.  I think often it is enough to show that one is taking time and thought to prepare for a get together, the specifics of what one does don't matter as much (unless one has a mindset that a woman is undressed without makeup or a man scruffy with a beard, etc).

[Meadowchik]

I do agree, I just wish that the idea when talked about was consistently more about total effort and not focusing specifically on makeup or ties as something generic can be applied to both men and women and be adapted by anyone depending on what their routine is for putting a little extra effort into showing they care, both for themselves and the people they are with. I think often it is enough to show that one is taking time and thought to prepare for a get together, the specifics of what one does don't matter as much (unless one has a mindset that a woman is undressed without makeup or a man scruffy with a beard, etc).

Yes.

It's tough, though, especially if you want to make an impression on people with very different ideas on appearance. Then trying something new might end up being quite effective.

But you cannot please everyone at once, either.

[Tacenda]

Interesting.

 

Don't know if this is what happened, but I could see Elder Ballard directing the removal of the video rather than have it further feed an unseemly and unintended controversy.

 

I'm fairly well acquainted with him, and it would not be out-of-character for him to do that.

 

I think the whole frenzy of fault-finding associated with this is deplorable.

Agree, even though I commented what I did.  I listened to the talk before this thread.  Probably because of things I'd heard, but listened to the whole talk, not just the snippet.  I believe the talk should not be judged on the snippet alone, that is sad.  It's getting to the point that apostles will have to read a script like GC if it gets to be where people worry over every word.  So I'm on the fence about it all.  Elder Ballard has the personality that is not too serious and I shouldn't have taken it seriously. 

Edited October 29, 2015 by Tacenda

[Calm]

But you cannot please everyone at once, either.

Unfortunately very true.

[PeterPear]

Interesting.

 

Don't know if this is what happened, but I could see Elder Ballard directing the removal of the video rather than have it further feed an unseemly and unintended controversy.

 

I'm fairly well acquainted with him, and it would not be out-of-character for him to do that.

 

I think the whole frenzy of fault-finding associated with this is deplorable.

You meant "dethpicable."

[Duncan]

Seriously, though, the real challenge with these remarks is that very many men and women are currently following the counsel and not getting the desire results. That's where the real pain is. Brothers who have "woken up" and "looked around" at the wonderful sisters, but who, despite their best efforts, have not found any sisters that return their interest. Likewise, the many sisters who go to great lengths to make a good appearance only to have the men in their congregation fail to take any notice. The heartache is that (apparently) there is nothing else to offer these good saints than what they already are doing.

 

 

Welcome to my life!!! there are these girls here that are like 18-23ish and , no offense, but i'll pass-too young. There is no one here my age to play with, like girlwise

[sethpayne]

For once, a post I can get behind. I even gave you a rep point for it.

 

I think, though, that you are neglecting the possibility it was Elder Ballard himself and not "lds.org admins" who directed that the video be taken down. I hope it's not another tail-wagging-the-dog assumption you are succumbing to, similar to blaming Public Affairs for official Church statements.

 

I'd bet $100 that Elder Ballard isn't even aware of the controversy.  He's got other things to worry about in his calling than a few people on FB getting hot and bothered over some throw away one-liner from an elderly man.

[saemo]

I've seen this video on a few facebook groups and forums. I think there's something of an over-reaction in many discussions with people being outraged. Elder Ballard is clearly making a joke.

http://youtu.be/v2DhEAn0Vzs

It's not that funny of a joke and seems a little bit in the realm of the "Trump gaffs" that Buzzfeed and Huffington post are delighting in mocking, but hopefully no believing LDS will think for a minute that he was speaking as anything other than a "man" rather than a "prophet."

I suppose for some people, sexist humour is always offensive. The fact that I pause to even question whether it really is offensive might simply be because I have a slightly different chromosomal configuration to 50% of the world's population. Perhaps it's easy to be less offended than I ought to be.

Is this just the old fashioned views of his generation that we can generously forgive and chuckle at? Is his fellow GA's comment a couple of years back that "women get the kind of men they dress for" (Elder Callister) more of the same? Is it time that Mormon male leaders stopped thinking they should have an opinion on how the entirety of female Mormons should dress themselves (whether speaking opinion or claimed revelation)? Or is this exactly the kind of messages that LDS leaders should spend their time communicating either in seriousness or in jest?

Oh, why not give him the benefit of the doubt, and maybe see it as advice from a nice guy who just wants to see the young folks get married?

[Thinking]

I haven't seen the entire talk, but it seems that the lipstick comment was part of an introduction to a segment of his talk. I fear that this is being taken out of context because the video stops before he continues.

 

Last time I checked, the human species is perpetuated by way of sexual intercourse. While physical appearance is not the be-all end-all component of a relationship, I believe we are kidding ourselves if we try to claim that it has no place in a relationship.

[HappyJackWagon]

I haven't seen the entire talk, but it seems that the lipstick comment was part of an introduction to a segment of his talk. I fear that this is being taken out of context because the video stops before he continues.

 

Last time I checked, the human species is perpetuated by way of sexual intercourse. While physical appearance is not the be-all end-all component of a relationship, I believe we are kidding ourselves if we try to claim that it has no place in a relationship.

My wife and daughters don't wear makeup. It's their choice and they are beautiful. Why would I want to encourage them to cover their faces with makeup. Does that make them more beautiful. NOPE.

[NEDRA]

I'm familiar with a number of YSA and older single adults who agonize over what more they could be doing to get married. They're tired of hearing platitudes and become sensitive to critiques about things that they cannot change. They remain faithful despite temptation. They diligently seek practical advice.

So they come to an event seeking guidance, perhaps hoping for a direct answer to prayer. And they hear, "wear lipstick. You look too manly=ugly." So they wince a little, get over it, see that it's a joke, then wonder why an apostle would use the precious few moments they have together to make a rude remark and say, "Just kidding. Don't take offense. We value women. Really."

Edited October 29, 2015 by NEDRA

[sethpayne]

I'm familiar with a number of YSA and older single adults who agonize over what more they could be doing to get married. They're tired of hearing platitudes and become sensitive to critiques about things that they cannot change. They remain faithful despite temptation. They diligently seek practical advice.

So they come to an event seeking guidance, perhaps hoping for a direct answer to prayer. And they hear, "wear lipstick. You look too manly=ugly." So they wince a little, get over it, see that it's a joke, then wonder why an apostle would use the precious few moments they have together to make a rude remark and say, "Just kidding. Don't take offense. We value women. Really."

 

NEDRA -- did you watch the full clip?

 

Because your description is so very very different from what I saw.  What I saw was a kind and well-intentioned man giving some very outdated advice within the context of a joke wherein the entire audience laughed.  I agree the joke was bad and shouldn't have been used.  But honestly I'm just not seeing how Elder Ballard's words can be construed as nefarious.

[jkwilliams]

I'll probably regret sharing this, and if this is inappropriate, let me know, and I'll delete it. I have 3 beautiful daughters (they're all active in the church, btw). One is married, and one is engaged. Last night, our oldest came to my wife and me in tears because she is feeling like she should be "further along" in her life than she is, and among the things she is disappointed about is not having found someone to share her life with. She has a college degree and has just started a promising career, but she wants to have a family. She's a beautiful young woman (I'm not saying that just because I'm her dad), accomplished, and an absolute joy to be around. But she has not found the right guy yet. Outside the church, it's not a big deal to be 25 and single, but it is in the church, at least for her. We told her that sometimes we just have to be patient and make the best of the place we are in life.

I don't know if she saw the broadcast from Elder Ballard, though both daughters went to an activity at the stake center Sunday evening. She wears lipstick, she stays in shape, and there is nothing more she could do to make herself more attractive to a young man. I hate thinking she might have heard the joke about it not being that hard. For her, it is that hard.

I wasn't offended by Elder Ballard's remarks, but they hit home to me last night.

[HappyJackWagon]

NEDRA -- did you watch the full clip?

 

Because your description is so very very different from what I saw.  What I saw was a kind and well-intentioned man giving some very outdated advice within the context of a joke wherein the entire audience laughed.  I agree the joke was bad and shouldn't have been used.  But honestly I'm just not seeing how Elder Ballard's words can be construed as nefarious.

Yeah, they laughed. But it was more of an uncomfortable, "I can't believe he just said that" kind of laugh. Look at the facial reactions of the people right behind him. They seem more shocked than amused.

 

If I'm wrong and people really found it funny, maybe Ballard should make the rounds on the stand-up circuit.

Edited October 29, 2015 by HappyJackWagon

[sethpayne]

Yeah, they laughed. But it was more of an uncomfortable, "I can't believe he just said that" kind of laugh. Look at the facial reactions of the people right behind him. They seem more shocked than amused.

 

If I'm wrong and people really found it funny, maybe Ballard should make the rounds on the stand-up circuit.

 

I'll go back and look.

 

But I have to be honest.  And of course this is coming from a hispanic male so I certainly can't speak for what women find offensive.  However, I can say something about what he said about men.  He called them lazy, essentially.  That's the same crap I heard as a BYU student but I don't think it is indicative of Elder Ballard's contempt for young men and women.  In fact, I strongly believe he loves the young people of the Church -- despite any bad word choices.  

 

The reason I'm being a bit of a stickler on this is not because I think the remarks demand defense.  They don't.  But there are so many other issues and statements given by LDS leaders that are truly problematic -- rape victims being responsible for their own abuse for example -- that by making Ballard and offender for a throw-away unscripted one-liner this sounds a lot like crying wolf.  Is it a problem, yes.  But I'm not buying all of the melodramatic claims being bandied about.  My view is colored by my personal experience at BYU having heard such nonsense in person too many times to count.  It wasn't fun.  I wish it weren't still being perpetuated, but it is.  

 

But the whole reaction stinks of clickbait journalism.  

 

Having said that, I suppose an argument could be made that this off-the-cuff one-liner is indicitive of a larger problem but again, I think we have plenty to work with without having to vilify a well-intentioned statement by an elderly man.

[Scott Lloyd]

I'd bet $100 that Elder Ballard isn't even aware of the controversy.  He's got other things to worry about in his calling than a few people on FB getting hot and bothered over some throw away one-liner from an elderly man.

From what I've heard him say in a past public address, he is very conscious of the power and influence of social media and has admonished young people to use it for the good that can be accomplished thereby. It is not much of a stretch for me to think he might be conscious of negative social media reaction to a talk he gave.

[sethpayne]

From what I've heard him say in a past public address, he is very conscious of the power and influence of social media and has admonished young people to use it for the good that can be accomplished thereby. It is not much of a stretch for me to think he might be conscious of negative social media reaction to a talk he gave.

 

Well, you certainly could be right.  Perhaps he has assistants that help him keep up with this stuff.  I just can't imagine Elder Ballard browsing FB.  

[Scott Lloyd]

Well, you certainly could be right.  Perhaps he has assistants that help him keep up with this stuff.  I just can't imagine Elder Ballard browsing FB.  

He has also assured us that the Brethren do not "live in a bubble."

 

Edited to add:

 

Here's my report of that address, wherein he made the "live in a bubble" comment and also talked about the influence of social media. He alluded to a prior address in which he talked about it.

 

I notice there's a link to where you can watch the entire address.

 

After you've viewed it, I would be interested to hear whether you still believe he is probably oblivious to social media, particularly as it pertains to the Church and the Brethren.

Edited October 29, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Buckeye]

I'll probably regret sharing this, and if this is inappropriate, let me know, and I'll delete it. I have 3 beautiful daughters (they're all active in the church, btw). One is married, and one is engaged. Last night, our oldest came to my wife and me in tears because she is feeling like she should be "further along" in her life than she is, and among the things she is disappointed about is not having found someone to share her life with. She has a college degree and has just started a promising career, but she wants to have a family. She's a beautiful young woman (I'm not saying that just because I'm her dad), accomplished, and an absolute joy to be around. But she has not found the right guy yet. Outside the church, it's not a big deal to be 25 and single, but it is in the church, at least for her. We told her that sometimes we just have to be patient and make the best of the place we are in life.

I don't know if she saw the broadcast from Elder Ballard, though both daughters went to an activity at the stake center Sunday evening. She wears lipstick, she stays in shape, and there is nothing more she could do to make herself more attractive to a young man. I hate thinking she might have heard the joke about it not being that hard. For her, it is that hard.

I wasn't offended by Elder Ballard's remarks, but they hit home to me last night.

 

Your daughter sounds very similar to my sister-in-law, only that my sister-in-law is in her early 30s and slowly getting pushed out of the singles ward. It is really hard. When Elder Ballard says that our young men are surrounded by amazing young women he's right. I can't give any advise personally, but I can say that the general advise of "make the most of what you're doing now" has been good for my sister-in-law. Not that she hasn't had her really low points (mostly when a younger sibling gets married, has a kid, or other milestones she's still waiting for), but it does help to direct your efforts to what you can control rather than just sitting and waiting.

 

I think you're right that perhaps the hardest part of the Ballard remarks are the "it's so easy" part. Maybe that was more directed to YM, I don't know. But it's anything but easy when it depends entirely on someone else's decision. Kind of like saying "c'mon Elder, baptizing is really easy. You just open your mouth and find someone to teach. The spirit does the real work." Well, that might be true, but a baptism also requires someone else's agency. I've known plenty of good missionaries who have little to no success despite doing everything right that they control. It doesn't help to hear that "it's so easy."

[sethpayne]

 

After you've viewed it, I would be interested to hear whether you still believe he is probably oblivious to social media, particularly as it pertains to the Church and the Brethren.

 

Scott - very serious question.  Why do you feel the need to be dishonest about what others say?  It is very frustrating to have you put words in my mouth.  Especially when you make things up.   I NEVER said that he was oblivious to social media etc...  NEVER.

 

What I did say that a man in his calling most likely has more important things to worry about than who is complaining about some throw-away line on FB.

Edited October 29, 2015 by sethpayne

[jkwilliams]

Your daughter sounds very similar to my sister-in-law, only that my sister-in-law is in her early 30s and slowly getting pushed out of the singles ward. It is really hard. When Elder Ballard says that our young men are surrounded by amazing young women he's right. I can't give any advise personally, but I can say that the general advise of "make the most of what you're doing now" has been good for my sister-in-law. Not that she hasn't had her really low points (mostly when a younger sibling gets married, has a kid, or other milestones she's still waiting for), but it does help to direct your efforts to what you can control rather than just sitting and waiting.

 

I think you're right that perhaps the hardest part of the Ballard remarks are the "it's so easy" part. Maybe that was more directed to YM, I don't know. But it's anything but easy when it depends entirely on someone else's decision. Kind of like saying "c'mon Elder, baptizing is really easy. You just open your mouth and find someone to teach. The spirit does the real work." Well, that might be true, but a baptism also requires someone else's agency. I've known plenty of good missionaries who have little to no success despite doing everything right that they control. It doesn't help to hear that "it's so easy."

I don't know what the answer is. In no way am I finding fault or "raging" against Elder Ballard, and it's disappointing that some people think you either 100% with him or 100% opposed. It just struck me that, far from attacking Elder Ballard, I had pretty much given him a pass, as I could see my dad saying something like that. It wasn't until my daughter talked to me that I considered how some people might feel after hearing it.

[NEDRA]

NEDRA -- did you watch the full clip?

 

Because your description is so very very different from what I saw.  What I saw was a kind and well-intentioned man giving some very outdated advice within the context of a joke wherein the entire audience laughed.  I agree the joke was bad and shouldn't have been used.  But honestly I'm just not seeing how Elder Ballard's words can be construed as nefarious.

I did watch the whole thing; in fact I watched the entire talk before it was scrubbed from the Internet. I never said Elder Ballard's talk was nefarious. I do not think it was. What I do think--having also been and older single sister once--is that faithful singles hang on to every word of church leaders in this kind of setting. The comment may have been an attempt at humor, but it was humor at their expense. It was saying that they should not look like men, they should use lipstick to achieve that, it's not so hard to do--all with the implication that maybe that's the thing they are missing. Some singles take firesides, conference, and other opportunities to hear from the prophets very seriously. It just can feel like yet another cutting comment they didn't sign up for. Minor, but over time they add up. From family and friends asking incessantly when they're going to get married, wondering if something's wrong with them, seating them at the kids' table for Thanksgiving, setting them up with anyone who happens to also be single, etc.

President Hinckley said something similar to young single men a decade or more ago: "You're not much to look at, but you're all the Lord has to work with," or something like that. When our young adults sacrifice so much to be chaste, worthy, and obedient only to hear digs about their appearance, it's not very supportive.

[Thinking]

My wife and daughters don't wear makeup. It's their choice and they are beautiful. Why would I want to encourage them to cover their faces with makeup. Does that make them more beautiful. NOPE.

 

I'll agree with you even though I haven't seen your wife or daughters. My wife is a natural super blonde and uses mascara and eyeliner (and that's about it). Without the mascara and eyeliner she is so pale that you might think her dead if she was asleep. Like you I don't tell my wife what makeup to wear.

 

If somebody has the rest of the clip I would be interested if it could be posted. I'm going to guess that it wasn't all about lipstick. I'll bet he talked about modesty, among other things. Something's wrong here, I'm sounding like an apologist.