Testimonies Of Having The Truth From Other Faith Traditions

[Kenngo1969]

And the bottom line is, if you want to know the difference between the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and other religious traditions (all of which have elements and people that are true, good, noble, worthy of holy envy, worthy of emulation, and so on), here's the difference: Most have much truth; the difference is that we believe only one has authority.  With due respect to my sincere friends who ascribe to the "priesthood of all believers," we believe that Christ established an actual church with actual authority during His first advent.  With all due respect to my good and sincere friends 3DOP, Miserere Nobis, and others,  and that He prophesied an apostasy before His second advent.  If an apostasy occurred, then a restoration was necessary.  If a restoration was necessary, then, taking nothing away from good and sincere believers in and adherents to other traditions, it behooves us to find out which of all of the sects is that restoration.  Taking nothing away from good and sincere believers in restorationist theology who do not align themselves with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Brighamite), their shortcoming is that, while God foretold a "restoration of all things" and that these things "never would be taken again from the earth" (Doctrine and Covenants 13) apparently, according to their belief, somewhere after Joseph Smith, a second apostasy occurred and a second restoration was necessary.  They ignore, discount, or reinterpret Doctrine and Covenants 42:11.

[CV75]

I am as familiar with LDS teachings as you are and perhaps more so. I was an active believing member all my life. Served a mission, held many callings and many in leadership, studied the scriptures and other LDS writings fervently. Far more than most.

And yet you sue this is your soapbox? LOL

[Teancum]

And yet you sue this is your soapbox? LOL

Huh?

[Teancum]

Why?

Seems to hot a topic for some. Likely I am too emotional about it as well and over reacting.

By the way I appreciate your comments.

Mods I retract my request to lock the thread. Let it ride for now.

[hagoth7]

...So I am interested if, after you actually read the essay and the non LDS testimonies provided what your thoughts are on what seems a fairly universal phenomena in the experience of people all faiths. And how can this method be reliable when so many use it and come up with mutually exclusive conclusions?

There is a thread in the Social forum where I responded to a dilemma where someone is wondering if they misinterpreted inspiration. If you read my reply there from earlier this morning, you  might get a glimpse of how that reply viably applies just as well to your query here. I would be interested to hear comments on your concern in the context of the reply I've linked to above.

 

Also, I have attended worship services of other faiths more times than I can count, and have had the Spirit of God testify to a number of the things taught there. I have also studied numerous books written by other faiths, and have had the spirit testify to a number of the impressive things taught there too. God is lord of the whole earth, not just of a single denomination.

 

As Joseph taught: "Have the Presbyterians any truth? Yes. Have the Baptists, Methodists, etc., any truth? Yes. They all have a little truth mixed with error. We should gather all the good and true principles in the world and treasure them up, or we shall not come out true Mormons."

Edited October 12, 2015 by hagoth7

[Kevin Christensen]

I read this a long time ago, and I have to say it was well thought out and written. I liked how you presented your thoughts/ideas and find it agrees with the experiences I have had. Thanks for reposting the link. If you like pie, I would bribe you with some, just so I could pick your brain.

Thanks.  No bribery is necessary.  My brain, such as it is, has always been free for the picking.

 

Best,

 

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

[Kenngo1969]

Thanks.  No bribery is necessary.  My brain, such as it is, has always been free for the picking.

 

Best,

 

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

And here I thought you were a smart man!  Why in the world would anyone in his right mind turn down PIE?!!

Edited October 12, 2015 by Kenngo1969

[Gray]

I think the Holy Ghost helps us appreciate sacredness. It's not a Ouija board though, and using it like one leads to a lot of people on different paths thinking that their path is the only true path. 

[Kenngo1969]

As I read the essay, it feels as if this is an attempt to sew seeds of doubt in an LDS audiance

 

 

Was it tough for you to face that others claim exactly the same method for finding truth and giving similar testimonies to their beliefs as LDS do? Did you bother to read any of the testimonies provided? Are you afraid to challenge your own beliefs?

Yeah, c'mon, BTH&T, Teancum's paradigm of being "ever learning, and never able to come to a knowledge of the truth" is so much better than yours!

[hagoth7]

All the things that make Mormonism unique are commonplace in occultism.

Such as?

[Meadowchik]

I readily grant truth exists. And I grant there Is overlap. I am asking how one reconciles testimonies by the spirit or what people think is from God when the teachings or truth claims conflict. The LDS church and the Catholic Church both claim to be the true church and the only ones with the priesthood authority of God. This conflicts yet we have adherents of both claiming God has witnessed to them that their respective faith system is the one true church.

It seems for most responders her the answer is God witnesses to all truth wherever it is. Ok I can agree with that.

But then there is a further position that while God witnesses the one I beleive in has more light a knowledge and is thus superior. LDS commenters here seem to have this position. One Catholic poster here seems to believe that and one Evangelcal poster does as well.

My take so far is there is truth every where and God will speak to it. But there is not one true church, religion, etc. Nor do I think one has more than another. It seems that if God is there God speaks to humans in many ways I guess even if those ways and teachings conflict.

 

I can envision a way for people having their perception of the message affirmed, people affiliating with apparently contradicting religions.  And, this, while one still possibly has the Priesthood.  I'm not saying such confirmation will happen for every aspect of a given faith, but for the parts that lead them from where they are to closer to where God wants them to be.

[Meadowchik]

It is folly to judge other's faith experiences.  I do not presume to judge the truth of someone else's revelations or gifts of the spirit.  Indeed I have seen miracles and the efficacy of the atonement in other's lives who are not Mormon.

 

Yes. Judge not, unless they claim to specifically have bearing on oneself.  Then, we are free to seek an answer for ourselves and reject or accept the experience as having bearing on us. In any case, I make the conscious decision to accept peoples' testimonials as their genuine experiences.

[Ahab]

So your testimony trumps theirs.

When my testimony is God's testimony to me, yes. And even when it's just what I think I'm not especially eager to think their testimony is more important or better than what I think.

I imagine they think theirs trumps yours.

I imagine they do too, and I mainly just want them to know what I think, while also curious to know what they think. Edited October 12, 2015 by Ahab

[Ahab]

But they would say exactly the same thing of you. So if they and you have fundamentally contradictory conclusions - what value does spiritual communication give you?

Mainly just helping me to know what they think. Getting to know them and what they stand for as the kind of people they are. Just like when I talk and communicate with God to get to know him and what he thinks. Talking with people is the only way I know to get to know them and the kind of people they are, whether good or evil, whatever they know and represent.

[MiserereNobis]

The Varieties of Religious Experience by William James is an excellent read.  I highly recommend it

[rpn]

I have heard Individuals share their spiritual experiences confirming their decision to practice modern day polygamy - and they sound remarkably similar to ours. I'm not sure why the HG would provide a confirmation of polygamy to these individuals, yet require excommunication within our own church.

But this is an obvious example of how good Satan is at mimicking (sp?) things of God with just a little part wrong.   It is also a good lesson in remembering to compare the new "truth" to see if it is consistent with scriptures and other guidance known to be of God.  It is also a cautionary tale about the reason that God allowed whole civilizations to perish or even commanded it, when young people could no longer have agency because the cultural traditions made it impossible for them to discern right from wrong.

[Teancum]

Yeah, c'mon, BTH&T, Teancum's paradigm of being "ever learning, and never able to come to a knowledge of the truth" is so much better than yours!

Sure don't listen to me. After all I am just a filthy apostate and should be groveling at the feet of the spiritually superior Kenngo.

[jkwilliams]

But this is an obvious example of how good Satan is at mimicking (sp?) things of God with just a little part wrong.   It is also a good lesson in remembering to compare the new "truth" to see if it is consistent with scriptures and other guidance known to be of God.  It is also a cautionary tale about the reason that God allowed whole civilizations to perish or even commanded it, when young people could no longer have agency because the cultural traditions made it impossible for them to discern right from wrong.

 

Either that, or there are commonalities in religious experience that transcend language and culture.

 

In the case of the polygamists, they "know" their guidance from their leaders and scriptures is from God because that is what they have been taught. When they compare their truth against the scriptures and known direction from God, their version of truth is confirmed. They would see rejection of polygamy, for example, as being inconsistent with scripture and known guidance from God. 

[Ahab]

Either that, or there are commonalities in religious experience that transcend language and culture.

In the case of the polygamists, they "know" their guidance from their leaders and scriptures is from God because that is what they have been taught. When they compare their truth against the scriptures and known direction from God, their version of truth is confirmed. They would see rejection of polygamy, for example, as being inconsistent with scripture and known guidance from God.

Yep, except how you're conflating gaining knowledge from God with what people in various faith traditions teach as a teaching from God.

Pop quiz:

1. How does any person gain knowledge from God?

2. How is that different from gaining knowledge from someone other than God, which that person may say is from God, but really is not knowledge from God?

3. Who do you rely on to give you knowledge from God when you really want to know what God knows?

4. How do you know those persons are reliable sources of knowledge from God?

Each question is worth 25 points.

ETA: spelling errors don't count.

Edited October 12, 2015 by Ahab

[Kenngo1969]

 

Sure don't listen to me. After all I am just a filthy apostate and should be groveling at the feet of the spiritually superior Kenngo.

You really shouldn't, but, if you must grovel, I suppose I can take it!

[Robert F. Smith]

Often here I have pointed out that personally I have found the claim to have a witness of the truth by the Holy Ghost as unreliable as a method for determining what really is the truth or the God's best religion. When making that point I have noted that human beings from all sorts of other religions and faith traditions claim to have had spiritual witnesses that what they beleive us in fact God's true path. Such traditions conflict with LDS truth claims as well as others. Thus this method seems unreliable

........................................................  

So I am interested if, after you actually read the essay and the non LDS testimonies provided what your thoughts are on what seems a fairly universal phenomena in the experience of people all faiths. And how can this method be reliable when so many use it and come up with mutually exclusive conclusions?

I don't see that the method is unreliable, nor that it necessarily leads to "mutually exclusive conclusions."  At least not at the macro-level.  The late Joseph Campbell seems to agree that the surface impression of differences worldwide are not true at the deepest level.  Perhaps you are missing the forest for the trees.  Isn't that last line from a Linda Ronstadt song?  

 

Anyhow, as Campbell said:

 

Every religion is true one way or another. It is true when understood metaphorically. But when it gets stuck in its own metaphors, interpreting them as facts, then you are in trouble.

 

Edited October 13, 2015 by Robert F. Smith

[VideoGameJunkie]

I felt the spirit during a catholic funeral once. Then again I also felt the spirit watching movies like Schindler's List and Saving Private Ryan.

[Kenngo1969]

Teancum:

 

You needn't suppose that I don't have questions.  I don't see how one could possibly have a halfway well-functioning brain as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and not have questions.  But, while questions are inevitable, in my opinion (and I believe this was reiterated several times during the recently-concluded General Conference, so I'm not alone, and I'm in very good company) doubt and faith are choices.  Questions notwithstanding, I choose to believe.  I look forward to some exceedingly well attended firesides with such themes as, "Brother Joseph, what were you thinking?" "Brother Brigham, what were you thinking?" and so on.  Does that mean I'm perfect, or that I think I am?  No; far from it.

 

But while I have not experienced any testimony-shaking crises, I have my own gospel-related questions.  I received what I thought was clear direction about what educational and professional paths to pursue (not just once, but two or three times: once when deciding to pursue an associate degree rather than beginning my studies at a four-year-institution, once when deciding on an undergraduate major, and once when I decided to pursue a law degree).  My ultimate occupational objective has not worked out the way I thought it would; perhaps it never will.

 

By contrast, I've told the story here before of waiting to be cut open for the third time in 27 months (after two previous failed operations, each of which was followed by six weeks in a body cast and months of painful, grueling, seemingly-fruitless physical therapy), this time by a brash young surgeon who dared to defy the weight of competent medical opinion arrayed against him which held that the best course of action was to try (again!) what had already failed (twice!).  Instead of the certainty of being put into a body cast, he offered me the chance of being able to recuperate in a wheelchair.  I've told of the unalloyed, unbridled optimism I felt despite ample reason for skepticism (if not cynicism) in the days and months leading up to the operation.  I knew, by a witness of the spirit, that the operation would be successful and that I would not be put into a cast.  There followed, in the span of another 17 months, two more successful operations, none of which was followed by my being put into a cast even though, in the days and months leading up to the second one, I was told that my being placed into a cast was not an option, but rather a certainty.

 

I spent much more than the usual time in law school.  I probably should have been shown the door long before I graduated, and at any other institution, I might've been (probably even at BYU-JRCLS, if I'd been accepted and had gone there).  The dog of a psychiatric diagnosis that has nipped at my heels for most of my life threatened to devour me whole when I was in law school, or so it seemed.  I withdrew, went back, took retroactive withdrawals from a few classes even after I went back, enrolled in (and then was dismissed from) the joint JD/MPA program, had conflict with a couple of MPA professors, took a couple ofLAW  final exams late, and had other problems.  I felt as though I had finally reached the top of the mountain on May 13, 2005.  (It was Friday the 13th; perhaps I should have taken that as an omen.)  After all of that, I was denied the opportunity to sit for the Bar based largely, if not entirely, on my behavioral health history and issues and incidents stemming therefrom.  Despite the fact that I got a psych eval that gave me a relatively clean bill of behavioral health in 2006, I got another eval from an idiot another provider in 2014 who suspects I may have a personality disorder and stated he thought I tried to manipulate the test.

 

I decided to go to law school after having spent 2 1/2 years at UPS answering phones and deciding I didn't want to do that for the rest of my life.  Eighteen years, a J.D. a Certified Paralegal credential, and myriad twists and turns later, here I am again .... answering phones.  I desperately needed a job in June, with 9-10 months still left on the lease for my horrendously expensive apartment.

 

The same God who spoke peace to my heart, mind, and soul on those three occasions has seemed stubbornly silent with respect to my occupational pursuits.  I uprooted myself and moved what, for me, is a long distance away from home where I'd spent the previous ten years six months ago to take a job in American Fork, ended up getting a supervisor from hell with whom I didn't get along very well, and ended up quitting (I believe I saw the writing on the wall, and it was only a matter of time before I would have been shown the door anyway).  Shortly before this turn of events, I was sitting in the chapel of the American Fork Temple waiting for an endowment session to begin.  It had been a hot day, and I had been sweating quite a bit.  The air conditioning was on full blast.  I should have been cold, but I wasn't.  I felt an unaccountable warm feeling. I'm not sure why.  Was it, "Don't worry; this job [the one I quit] will work out?"  I doubt it; I hope not.  Was it, "Whatever happens, things will work out?"  If I were a betting man, that's where I'd put my money.

 

The only answers I have?  (1) I'm not perfect, but I still believe God loves me.  If I give that up, what else do I have?  (2) "God sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust, and maketh His sun to rise on the evil and on the good"; "Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief"; "The Lord giveth, and the Lord [taketh] away; blessed be the name of the Lord"; "I know not the meaning of all things.  Nevertheless, I know that God loveth His children"; "My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways"; "All things [not just the "good" things and not just the things we understand, but all things] work together for the good of them that love God."  Et cetera.

 

Edited October 15, 2015 by Kenngo1969

[Meadowchik]

Either that, or there are commonalities in religious experience that transcend language and culture.

 

In the case of the polygamists, they "know" their guidance from their leaders and scriptures is from God because that is what they have been taught. When they compare their truth against the scriptures and known direction from God, their version of truth is confirmed. They would see rejection of polygamy, for example, as being inconsistent with scripture and known guidance from God. 

 

Except, given a certain watershed moment of realizing their own personal worth and divine right to personal revelation, one would hope that they would seek a personal witness for themselves, not just take another's word for it.

[Tacenda]

Teancum:

 

You needn't suppose that I don't have questions.  I don't see how one could possibly have a halfway well-functioning brain as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and not have questions.  But, while questions are inevitable, in my opinion (and I believe this was reiterated several times during the recently-concluded General Conference, so I'm not alone, and I'm in very good company) doubt and faith are choices.  Questions notwithstanding, I choose to believe.  I look forward to some exceedingly well attended firesides with such themes as, "Brother Joseph, what were you thinking?" "Brother Brigham, what were you thinking?" and so on.  Does that mean I'm perfect, or that I think I am?  No; far from it.

 

But while I have not experienced any testimony-shaking crises, I have my own gospel-related questions.  I received what I thought was clear direction about what educational and professional paths to pursue (not just once, but two or three times: once when deciding to pursue an associate degree rather than beginning my studies at a four-year-institution, once when deciding on an undergraduate major, and once when I decided to pursue a law degree).  My ultimate occupational objective has not worked out the way I thought it would; perhaps it never will.

 

By contrast, I've told the story here before of waiting to be cut open for the third time in 27 months (after two previous failed operations, each of which was followed by six weeks in a body cast and months of painful, grueling, seemingly-fruitless physical therapy), this time by a brash young surgeon who dared to defy the weight of competent medical opinion arrayed against him which held that the best course of action was to try (again!) what had already failed (twice!).  Instead of the certainty of being put into a body cast, he offered me the chance of being able to recuperate in a wheelchair.  I've told of the unalloyed, unbridled optimism I felt despite ample reason for skepticism (if not cynicism) in the days and months leading up to the operation.  I knew, by a witness of the spirit, that the operation would be successful and that I would not be put into a cast.  There followed, in the span of another 17 months, two more successful operations, none of which was followed by my being put into a cast even though, in the days and months leading up to the second one, I was told that my being placed into a cast was not an option, but rather a certainty.

 

I spent much more than the usual time in law school.  I probably should have been shown the door long before I graduated, and at any other institution, I might've been (probably even at BYU-JRCLS, if I'd been accepted and had gone there).  The dog of a psychiatric diagnosis that has nipped at my heels for most of my life threatened to devour me whole when I was in law school, or so it seemed.  I withdrew, went back, took retroactive withdrawals from a few classes even after I went back, enrolled in (and then was dismissed from) the joint JD/MPA program, had conflict with a couple of MPA professors, took a couple ofLAW  final exams late, and had other problems.  I felt as though I had finally reached the top of the mountain on May 13, 2005.  (It was Friday the 13th; perhaps I should have taken that as an omen.)  After all of that, I was denied the opportunity to sit for the Bar based largely, if not entirely, on my behavioral health history and issues and incidents stemming therefrom.  Despite the fact that I got a psych eval that gave me a relatively clean bill of behavioral health in 2006, I got another eval from an idiot another provider in 2014 who suspects I may have a personality disorder and stated he thought I tried to manipulate the test.

 

I decided to go to law school after having spent 2 1/2 years at UPS answering phones and deciding I didn't want to do that for the rest of my life.  Eighteen years, a J.D. a Certified Paralegal credential, and myriad twists and turns later, here I am again .... answering phones.  I desperately needed a job in June, with 9-10 months still left on the lease for my horrendously expensive apartment.

 

The same God who spoke peace to my heart, mind, and soul on those three occasions has seemed stubbornly silent with respect to my occupational pursuits.  I uprooted myself and moved what, for me, is a long distance away from home where I'd spent the previous ten years six months ago to take a job in American Fork, ended up getting a supervisor from hell with whom I didn't get along very well, and ended up quitting (I believe I saw the writing on the wall, and it was only a matter of time before I would have been shown the door anyway).  Shortly before this turn of events, I was sitting in the chapel of the American Fork Temple waiting for an endowment session to begin.  It had been a hot day, and I had been sweating quite a bit.  The air conditioning was on full blast.  I should have been cold, but I wasn't.  I feld an unaccountable warm feeling. I'm not sure why.  Was it, "Don't worry; this job [the one I quit] will work out?"  I doubt it; I hope not.  Was it, "Whatever happens, things will work out?"  If I were a betting man, that's where I'd put my money.

 

The only answers I have?  (1) I'm not perfect, but I still believe God loves me.  If I give that up, what else do I have?  (2) "God sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust, and maketh His sun to rise on the evil and on the good"; "Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief"; "The Lord giveth, and the Lord [taketh] away; blessed be the name of the Lord"; "I know not the meaning of all things.  Nevertheless, I know that God loveth His children"; "My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways"; "All things [not just the "good" things and not just the things we understand, but all things] work together for the good of them that love God."  Et cetera.

 

There's bound to be good reasons for things...once you get far enough ahead to see them. Hope you make every moment or opportunity count that you can. I admire you for trying new things such as moving away from a comfortable position such as having family so close. If it's not working out though, hopefully you can endure until you're able to move back home, but looks like you've had plenty of practice of enduring for far longer time periods in your life.