Storm Rider Posted October 12, 2015 Posted October 12, 2015 But they would say exactly the same thing of you. So if they and you have fundamentally contradictory conclusions - what value does spiritual communication give you? Maybe I missed something. If God told canard78 a specific thing you would feel comfortable ignoring it because I told you that God told me something different? You ready to bet your eternity that God does not know you and that he does not know what is best for you. More importantly, you are so confident in what I say that you would toss out God's direction to you in favor of the pseudo confusion you are creating out of a conflict of what God tells one person to do and what God may have told someone else.
Teancum Posted October 12, 2015 Author Posted October 12, 2015 Another discussed the acknowledgement of two churches - one of the Lamb and one of Satan's. I stated there that the Church of the Lamb is much more inclusive and enfolds all those who follow after the Savior as well as those that teach elements or degrees of truth. The only members in the Church of Satan are those that seek iniquity in a conscious manner. When I hear the testimonies of others - Catholics, Muslims, Jains, you name the person and/or his religion, I acknowledge the truth they have learned and lived. Their testimony in no way diminishes or belittles the testimony I have by the Holy Spirit. I actually believe that they have been led by the Holy Spirit also....and yet my testimony remains. If we are disciples of Christ we are also students of truth and claim all truth regardless of where it is found. We are promised there will be a unity of the faith - I don't think that that unity is as understood as it could be, but I do believe we will become one. I do believe there will be an acknowledgement that Jesus is the Christ - that every knee shall bow to him as Savior. If we are students of truth we will always be learning. The fact that we will be learning means we will be learning truths one truth at a time and in the end they will all fit together in an eternal, unending truth. It does not mean that I will be blown about by every wind of doctrine created by man - those are not truths, but falsehoods created to deceive.This used to work for me but now it seems that the testimonies of the various truth claims conflict. If Muhammed was a prophet and the Quran is true how can Any Christian Faith be the truth or how can Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon be true? Yet we have adherents of both claiming spiritual witnesses to conflicting truths. Same of Catholicism. It claims preisthood authority as does Mormonism. Adherents of both claim spiritual witnesses that their faith is the true one. Both cannot hold God's preisthood power. One or the other, or even possibly both are incorrect and the adherents are either both wrong or one side or the other is wrong.
Teancum Posted October 12, 2015 Author Posted October 12, 2015 Even the lowest kingdom of glory is infused with the light of Christ, and it is more wonderful than anyone can imagine. This light is throughout this temporal world also. Testimonies of this marvelous light come from the same source, and so will sound similar regardless of their attribution (“they are some of one and some of another”—D&C 76:98-101). But there are even greater kingdoms, and as we build upon this fundamental kingdom greater truths and paths can be revealed as things are revealed by the light of Christ, the power of the Holy Ghost, and the Gift of the Holy Ghost, and another or Second Comforter. We begin this progression in this life, even without ever having heard the message of the Restored Gospel.So your testimony is the one of the greater light and the others are inferior? Why would the Holy Ghost bear witness of a lesser truth or even a falsehood?
Teancum Posted October 12, 2015 Author Posted October 12, 2015 The Holy Ghost testifies of all truth. That means it absolutely can testify to non-members about elements of their faith traditions. The light of Christ might absolutely lead someone to follow a faith tradition that is not LDS, if it will lead them to become and be what they have been sent here to do. Everything good comes from God. The witness of the Holy Ghost is not unreliable. Mortals are just not always prepared to understand the nuances of other's or their own journeys and accept that all the good and truth they understand now may not be all the good and truth they will understand after earnestly seeking Him for a longer time, or in a different way.It seems unreliable if bear witness of inferior or even false truth which seems to be what you are saying, Additionally your post seems to almost imply predestination. What do you mean by "what they were sent here to do?" Also these people are claiming witness to somethings that are simply false if the LDS truth claims are true. And they don't think they have some partial or even substandard truth.
Teancum Posted October 12, 2015 Author Posted October 12, 2015 Perhaps the Spirit testifies to people of different faith traditions that they have the truth because, by and large ... they do. "Love God, and serve Him with all of your heart, mind, mind, strength, and soul"; "Love your fellow human beings"; "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Some version of these teachings (and much more) can be found in many faith traditions. That's the important stuff. The rest is just details. Whatever religious tradition we adhere to, we are blessed as we respond the best we can to whatever light we receive.I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints because I believe it is the best way to achieve the most bounteous harvest of good fruit. I do not, however, look down my nose at those who adhere to other faith traditions who get (from my perspective) thirtyfold or sixtyfold. I am glad that their faith bears good fruit in their lives, and I say, "More power to them!" Now, if they would like to know how they might increase their harvest, I will be happy to share my perspective on how they might do that.I've said this, or some variant of it, every time you've brought up the subject. Predictably, you ignore it. Have fun in your "All 'Er Nuthin'" world, Ado Annie! I have no idea what you think I ignore, Does this thread bother you? I guess your apparent good will extends to many but not to someone like me that questions how this all works and how we can find it a reliable means of finding truth. For some reason it seems that bugs you. And Even your comment about someone he who wants to increase their harvest...well you are happy to share your perspective implies somehow your experience may be superior to theirs. But I will retract that comment if you can tell me you are as willing to listen to how they may think they can increase your harvest.
CV75 Posted October 12, 2015 Posted October 12, 2015 So your testimony is the one of the greater light and the others are inferior? Why would the Holy Ghost bear witness of a lesser truth or even a falsehood?I think you have to ask yourself why you are predisposed to such a conclusion. As a progression, it is only a matter of time before everyone has the same opportunities for the highest kingdom, and this timing has to do with the Lord's will and plan for each of us (Acts 17:26-29). My journey began with, and still involves, the light of Christ (or whatever you want to call that “light [which] proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space—The light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things, which is the law by which all things are governed…”), just like everyone else's. You really haven't an axe to grind. I recommend you study up a bit on the differences between the light of Christ, the power of the Holy Ghost, the Gift of the Holy Ghost, and another (or Second) Comforter.
Teancum Posted October 12, 2015 Author Posted October 12, 2015 To him, yes it does. Why wouldn't it? Otherwise, he wouldn't be a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, he would be a Sunni Muslim, or a Shia Muslim, or a Buddhist, or a Zoroastrian, or a Baptist, or a Methodist, or a Roman Catholic, or a Jew, or a nonreligious theist, or an agnostic, or an atheist ...Of corse it trumps it but theirs trumps his for them. How can both be following the true path?
Teancum Posted October 12, 2015 Author Posted October 12, 2015 (edited) What method do you find reliable “for determining what is really … God’s best religion?"I don't have claimed to have found one yet. Currently I rely on evidence and reason and at least today I am skeptical that such a thing exists. I am open though to being wrong and I still pray for guidance as well. Edited October 12, 2015 by Teancum
Kenngo1969 Posted October 12, 2015 Posted October 12, 2015 This used to work for me but now it seems that the testimonies of the various truth claims conflict. If Muhammed was a prophet and the Quran is true how can Any Christian Faith be the truth or how can Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon be true? Yet we have adherents of both claiming spiritual witnesses to conflicting truths. Same of Catholicism. It claims preisthood authority as does Mormonism. Adherents of both claim spiritual witnesses that their faith is the true one. Both cannot hold God's preisthood power. One or the other, or even possibly both are incorrect and the adherents are either both wrong or one side or the other is wrong. If we drew a Venn Diagram representing the intersection or commonality of truths taught in various religions, what do you suppose that diagram would look like? In your world, I suppose the various circles would be miles apart. For most, however, the circles would overlap quite a bit.
Teancum Posted October 12, 2015 Author Posted October 12, 2015 I think you have to ask yourself why you are predisposed to such a conclusion. As a progression, it is only a matter of time before everyone has the same opportunities for the highest kingdom, and this timing has to do with the Lord's will and plan for each of us (Acts 17:26-29). My journey began with, and still involves, the light of Christ (or whatever you want to call that “light [which] proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space—The light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things, which is the law by which all things are governed…”), just like everyone else's. You really haven't an axe to grind. I recommend you study up a bit on the differences between the light of Christ, the power of the Holy Ghost, the Gift of the Holy Ghost, and another (or Second) Comforter.First I am grinding no ax. I read this article and the testimonies give by believers in other religions and wa struck by it more than I have been before. So I wanted to discuss it. Second I am absolutely familiar my guess is just as much as you with the LDS teachings on the light of Christ, the power of the Holy Ghost and the Gift of the Holy Ghost as well as the Second Comforter. But thanks for the suggestion anyway.
Teancum Posted October 12, 2015 Author Posted October 12, 2015 If we drew a Venn Diagram representing the intersection or commonality of truths taught in various religions, what do you suppose that diagram would look like? In your world, I suppose the various circles would be miles apart. For most, however, the circles would overlap quite a bit.No I think there would be lots of overlap as well as much that does not. I did ask some specifics in the post you responded to. Can you answer me on those?
Kenngo1969 Posted October 12, 2015 Posted October 12, 2015 I have no idea what you think I ignore, Does this thread bother you? I guess your apparent good will extends to many but not to someone like me that questions how this all works and how we can find it a reliable means of finding truth. For some reason it seems that bugs you. And Even your comment about someone he who wants to increase their harvest...well you are happy to share your perspective implies somehow your experience may be superior to theirs. But I will retract that comment if you can tell me you are as willing to listen to how they may think they can increase your harvest. Your questions per se don't bug me. Your penchant for ignoring me doesn't bug me. (If I were bugged by that I'd really be bugged. Heck, 95% of the posters here ignore what I write completely, so you're in really good company.) If you want to proceed as though the perfectly good answers offered up to your supposed dilemma don't exist (while you watch us all chase our tails round and round and round in a goodfaith effort to engage you and your concerns) have at it, but I see no reason to continue to participate.
Kenngo1969 Posted October 12, 2015 Posted October 12, 2015 No I think there would be lots of overlap as well as much that does not. I did ask some specifics in the post you responded to. Can you answer me on those? I already responded with a listt which, while it was not long, does contain several weighty truths that, in one form or another, most religions have in common with one another. Your amusement at watching me chase my tail notwithstanding, apparently only one of us is getting anything out of this conversation. I'm out.
Kenngo1969 Posted October 12, 2015 Posted October 12, 2015 Of corse it trumps it but theirs trumps his for them. How can both be following the true path? We keep on having this same conversation, over and over and over again. This will absolutely be my last post in this thread. Where, in your world, apparently the paths are miles apart and never overlap, the reality is that, for the most part, we're all on the same path. As for where they diverge, that's what preaching the gospel in the spirit world (see 1 Peter 3:18 and 4:6) and work for the dead (see 1 Corinthians 15:29) is for.
Teancum Posted October 12, 2015 Author Posted October 12, 2015 Your questions per se don't bug me. Your penchant for ignoring me doesn't bug me. (If I were bugged by that I'd really be bugged. Heck, 95% of the posters here ignore what I write completely, so you're in really good company.) If you want to proceed as though the perfectly good answers offered up to your supposed dilemma don't exist (while you watch us all chase our tails round and round and round in a goodfaith effort to engage you and your concerns) have at it, but I see no reason to continue to participate.I don't ignore your posts. I read them. I am responding to them. If I have not found what you call good answer satisfying does not mean I am not open and interested, If you want to be demeaning and call my questions a supposed dilemma feel free to drop out. My OP was sincere and not an attempt to demean anyone. Too bad you can't show the same respect.
Teancum Posted October 12, 2015 Author Posted October 12, 2015 I already responded with a listt which, while it was not long, does contain several weighty truths that, in one form or another, most religions have in common with one another. Your amusement at watching me chase my tail notwithstanding, apparently only one of us is getting anything out of this conversation. I'm out.Fine with me. I have done nothing at all to do what you describe. Nor am I sitting here simply being amused.
filovirus Posted October 12, 2015 Posted October 12, 2015 So I am interested if, after you actually read the essay and the non LDS testimonies provided what your thoughts are on what seems a fairly universal phenomena in the experience of people all faiths. And how can this method be reliable when so many use it and come up with mutually exclusive conclusions?Is it the holy ghost testifying they are living many truths of the Gospel? Perhaps.Is it the light of Christ they feel as they live many of the truths of the Gospel? Perhaps.Is it a subconscious remembrance of some of the truths learned in the pre-mortal Spirit world? Perhaps.Is it confirmation bias? Perhaps.Is it the evil one misleading them? Perhaps.Is it an emotion response without anything to do with personal revelation? Perhaps.Is it something else I didn't think of? Perhaps.Seems you want a 'one answer fits all' when it is probably a variety of reasons, or even a combination of reasons. 1
BlahBlahBlah Posted October 12, 2015 Posted October 12, 2015 From an Evangelical Christian perspective, “Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world” (Hebrews 1:1–2). God may sometimes speak audibly to people. It is highly doubtful, though, that this occurs as often as some people claim it does. Again, even in the Bible, God speaking audibly is the exception, not the ordinary. If anyone claims that God has spoken to him or her, always compare what is said with what the Bible says. If God were to speak today, His words would be in full agreement with what He has said in the Bible (2 Timothy 3:16–17). God does not contradict Himself.
Teancum Posted October 12, 2015 Author Posted October 12, 2015 Is it the holy ghost testifying they are living many truths of the Gospel? Perhaps.Is it the light of Christ they feel as they live many of the truths of the Gospel? Perhaps.Is it a subconscious remembrance of some of the truths learned in the pre-mortal Spirit world? Perhaps.Is it confirmation bias? Perhaps.Is it the evil one misleading them? Perhaps.Is it an emotion response without anything to do with personal revelation? Perhaps.Is it something else I didn't think of? Perhaps.Seems you want a 'one answer fits all' when it is probably a variety of reasons, or even a combination of reasons.I only want to to to understand or perhaps to confirm my suspicions about this. Contrary to some views I am not simply trying to get people to chase their tales in and sit and watch in amusement.
Teancum Posted October 12, 2015 Author Posted October 12, 2015 From an Evangelical Christian perspective, “Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world” (Hebrews 1:1–2). God may sometimes speak audibly to people. It is highly doubtful, though, that this occurs as often as some people claim it does. Again, even in the Bible, God speaking audibly is the exception, not the ordinary. If anyone claims that God has spoken to him or her, always compare what is said with what the Bible says. If God were to speak today, His words would be in full agreement with what He has said in the Bible (2 Timothy 3:16–17). God does not contradict Himself.So from an are Evangelical standpoint how do you reconcile seemingly conflicting spiritual witnesses across various faith traditions?
Teancum Posted October 12, 2015 Author Posted October 12, 2015 I already responded with a listt which, while it was not long, does contain several weighty truths that, in one form or another, most religions have in common with one another. Your amusement at watching me chase my tail notwithstanding, apparently only one of us is getting anything out of this conversation. I'm out.Kenngo has left the building but no you did not answer my specific questions. I agreed that there was much overlap,but noted two faith traditions claims that conflict with two claims from the LDS faith and asked if the various adherents have testimonies of such claims how can that be reconciled. I asked politely. But Kenngo essentially accused me of being malicious in my intent.
filovirus Posted October 12, 2015 Posted October 12, 2015 I only want to to to understand or perhaps to confirm my suspicions about this. Contrary to some views I am not simply trying to get people to chase their tales in and sit and watch in amusement.Sorry, I wasn't trying to be snarky. I was just trying to show that I don't have the answer, and I don't think there is one right or easy answer that fits all scenarios.
Teancum Posted October 12, 2015 Author Posted October 12, 2015 We keep on having this same conversation, over and over and over again. This will absolutely be my last post in this thread. Where, in your world, apparently the paths are miles apart and never overlap, the reality is that, for the most part, we're all on the same path. As for where they diverge, that's what preaching the gospel in the spirit world (see 1 Peter 3:18 and 4:6) and work for the dead (see 1 Corinthians 15:29) is for.And once more I said there was overlap. So your ongoing repetitive remarks that I think things are miles apart are false. But there are things that are mutually exclusive. Many things.
Teancum Posted October 12, 2015 Author Posted October 12, 2015 Sorry, I wasn't trying to be snarky. I was just trying to show that I don't have the answer, and I don't think there is one right or easy answer that fits all scenarios.No I don't think you were snarky. I was likely overreacting to someone else.
BlahBlahBlah Posted October 12, 2015 Posted October 12, 2015 So from an are Evangelical standpoint how do you reconcile seemingly conflicting spiritual witnesses across various faith traditions? From an Evangelical Christian standpoint, we shouldn't expect to hear voices from God. There is a dangerous trend today where people seek to hear a “word from the Lord,” extraneous to what He has already given us in the Bible. “The Lord told me . . .” has become the mantra of experience-driven Christianity. Unfortunately, what He “tells” one person often contradicts what He “tells” another, and these extra-biblical revelations have proven to be very divisive, tearing apart church after church as one person’s experience seeks to take precedence over another’s. This results in chaos, benefiting no one except Satan, who loves to sow discord among believers. We should make the apostle Peter our example in these matters. In spite of the miraculous experience on the Mount of Transfiguration, where he beheld the glorified Christ speaking with Moses and Elijah, Peter refused to rely on that experience, declaring instead that “We also have the more sure prophetic word which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place” (2 Peter 1:18-19, NKJV). http://www.gotquestions.org/God-telling-me.html
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