Meadowchik Posted October 13, 2015 Posted October 13, 2015 I felt the spirit during a catholic funeral once. Then again I also felt the spirit watching movies like Schindler's List and Saving Private Ryan.I could imagine a spiritual potential in all three. Much depends on what we bring to the occasion. 1
Tsuzuki Posted October 13, 2015 Posted October 13, 2015 Such as?Exaltation, personal revelation, seeking truth from any source, etc. Joseph Smith got those ideas from his occult studies. We occultists also have the missing pieces that make Adam-God make sense.
Maedros Posted October 13, 2015 Posted October 13, 2015 I don't think that one can gain a testimony about the LDS' claim to be the only true and living church by the witness of the Holy Ghost alone; more is required. We must read and ponder and pray and we must understand what we're reading - the witness of the Spirit (I believe) confirms what we realize as we follow the other steps; it becomes a confirming witness. As a boy and a member of a different church, I had many instances where I prayed and received this same witness of the Spirit - however when it comes to the question of whether the JCLDS is the only true church verses the other religions out there then the prayer for that answer has to be more focused and involve reading/studying, pondering (or ponderizing) and prayer; most importantly sincerity of heart in the seeking of that knowledge; when someone follows this pattern: then the witness will come of the truth. Followers of other religions don't usually pray in this way and don't seek this truth in this way so they don't have the testimony that we have of the church's truth because they never sought it; so they may very well feel the Spirit and have spiritual experiences and manifestations but not necessarily about which church is true. 1
jkwilliams Posted October 13, 2015 Posted October 13, 2015 Except, given a certain watershed moment of realizing their own personal worth and divine right to personal revelation, one would hope that they would seek a personal witness for themselves, not just take another's word for it.Who is to say they haven't sought and received a personal witness? The mistake we often make is in believing that personal witness is unique to Mormonism.
Meadowchik Posted October 13, 2015 Posted October 13, 2015 Who is to say they haven't sought and received a personal witness? The mistake we often make is in believing that personal witness is unique to Mormonism. You said, In the case of the polygamists, they "know" their guidance from their leaders and scriptures is from God because that is what they have been taught. When they compare their truth against the scriptures and known direction from God, their version of truth is confirmed. They would see rejection of polygamy, for example, as being inconsistent with scripture and known guidance from God. ...which said nothing about personal witness. You didn't mention what imo is essential.
jkwilliams Posted October 13, 2015 Posted October 13, 2015 You said, ...which said nothing about personal witness. You didn't mention what imo is essential. Sorry I wasn't clearer. I have known people of various religious faiths who have received what they consider to be a spiritual witness from God. I don't think it's possible to comment on the validity of such experiences because they are intensely personal and subjective.
Meadowchik Posted October 13, 2015 Posted October 13, 2015 Sorry I wasn't clearer. I have known people of various religious faiths who have received what they consider to be a spiritual witness from God. I don't think it's possible to comment on the validity of such experiences because they are intensely personal and subjective. I agree. I've already said as much on this thread. As a general rule, when someone testifies, I assume genuineness, that they might believe what they believe as much as I do my beliefs. However, I do admit that if I think someone is involving himself in something harmful or foolish, I'd hope that person would seek all spiritual tools available in order to navigate to safety.
Teancum Posted October 13, 2015 Author Posted October 13, 2015 I don't think that one can gain a testimony about the LDS' claim to be the only true and living church by the witness of the Holy Ghost alone; more is required. We must read and ponder and pray and we must understand what we're reading - the witness of the Spirit (I believe) confirms what we realize as we follow the other steps; it becomes a confirming witness. As a boy and a member of a different church, I had many instances where I prayed and received this same witness of the Spirit - however when it comes to the question of whether the JCLDS is the only true church verses the other religions out there then the prayer for that answer has to be more focused and involve reading/studying, pondering (or ponderizing) and prayer; most importantly sincerity of heart in the seeking of that knowledge; when someone follows this pattern: then the witness will come of the truth. Followers of other religions don't usually pray in this way and don't seek this truth in this way so they don't have the testimony that we have of the church's truth because they never sought it; so they may very well feel the Spirit and have spiritual experiences and manifestations but not necessarily about which church is true.Well if you read the testimonies provided at the link I started the thread with quite a few sure sound an awfully lot what you just said above. Change the names and you have quite a few sounding just like and LDS testimony. So no I don't agree that others don't seek or ask in the proper way and somehow get an inferior answer. Is there really some recipe someone must follow to get the correct or best spiritual witness?
hagoth7 Posted October 13, 2015 Posted October 13, 2015 ...We occultists also have the missing pieces that make Adam-God make sense.? Then how about a thread that provides those missing pieces?
CV75 Posted October 13, 2015 Posted October 13, 2015 Well if you read the testimonies provided at the link I started the thread with quite a few sure sound an awfully lot what you just said above. Change the names and you have quite a few sounding just like and LDS testimony. So no I don't agree that others don't seek or ask in the proper way and somehow get an inferior answer. Is there really some recipe someone must follow to get the correct or best spiritual witness?Did you know this: The light of Christ, the power of the Holy Ghost, the Gift of the Holy Ghost, receiving the Holy Ghost and the Second Comforter are all forms of spiritual witness of truth, from the same source. Sometimes the light of Christ and the power of the Holy Ghost dawn or come upon us and sometimes we more actively seek them; the Gift of the Holy Ghost, receiving the Holy Ghost and Second Comforter involve entering baptism and other priesthood ordinances and operate as part of a covenant relationship with God. There is definitely a progression from the effects of the light and power to the effects of the covenant relationship, and definitely a concomitant progression of revealed truth from “seeing” that which is good/better/best under the circumstances to “becoming” that which is rightly aligned with and eternally one with God.
Tsuzuki Posted October 13, 2015 Posted October 13, 2015 ? Then how about a thread that provides those missing pieces?http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/66206-adam-god-makes-sense-to-occultists/
Teancum Posted October 13, 2015 Author Posted October 13, 2015 Did you know this: The light of Christ, the power of the Holy Ghost, the Gift of the Holy Ghost, receiving the Holy Ghost and the Second Comforter are all forms of spiritual witness of truth, from the same source. Sometimes the light of Christ and the power of the Holy Ghost dawn or come upon us and sometimes we more actively seek them; the Gift of the Holy Ghost, receiving the Holy Ghost and Second Comforter involve entering baptism and other priesthood ordinances and operate as part of a covenant relationship with God. There is definitely a progression from the effects of the light and power to the effects of the covenant relationship, and definitely a concomitant progression of revealed truth from “seeing” that which is good/better/best under the circumstances to “becoming” that which is rightly aligned with and eternally one with God.Yes of course I am quite well aware of the LDS doctrine on this. I think I have pointed this out to you once or twice on this thread. You already recommended I study up on this subject,Did you know a good Catholic or Protestant likely rejects the a good part of what you type above? So the answer for you is that nobody really has the Gift of the Holy Ghost or access to the second comforter unless they are baptized in and LDS baptism. And to get the best most correct answer from God one must go through this process. Accordingly others testimonies don't have the same light and knowledge as one who has an LDS testimony. Correct? I understand this and have for years. I used to beleive it myself.Thanks for sharing it.
CV75 Posted October 13, 2015 Posted October 13, 2015 So the answer for you is that nobody really has the Gift of the Holy Ghost or access to the second comforter unless they are baptized in and LDS baptism. And to get the best most correct answer from God one must go through this process. Accordingly others testimonies don't have the same light and knowledge as one who has an LDS testimony. Correct?No, not at all correct. Just the opposite! Read my other posts in context of this one.
Teancum Posted October 13, 2015 Author Posted October 13, 2015 No, not at all correct. Just the opposite! Read my other posts in context of this one. Ok I read your posts and I think your first one sums it up the best: Even the lowest kingdom of glory is infused with the light of Christ, and it is more wonderful than anyone can imagine. This light is throughout this temporal world also. Testimonies of this marvelous light come from the same source, and so will sound similar regardless of their attribution (“they are some of one and some of another”—D&C 76:98-101). But there are even greater kingdoms, and as we build upon this fundamental kingdom greater truths and paths can be revealed as things are revealed by the light of Christ, the power of the Holy Ghost, and the Gift of the Holy Ghost, and another or Second Comforter. We begin this progression in this life, even without ever having heard the message of the Restored Gospel. I think I understand it better now and while it still seems that you are saying there is a higher and perhaps better path in the LDS faith it is open to all either now or in the next life and eternities. If I am missing your point do please clarify.
CV75 Posted October 14, 2015 Posted October 14, 2015 Ok I read your posts and I think your first one sums it up the best: I think I understand it better now and while it still seems that you are saying there is a higher and perhaps better path in the LDS faith it is open to all either now or in the next life and eternities. If I am missing your point do please clarify.It may sum things up for your prurposes. The higher and better path for anyone is the most recent one that God has presented to him. For some this presentation occurs in this life and for others in the next. And even the LDS Church, which I assume will continue to evolve here and there through future decades and throughout the Millennium, will one day be replaced with the Church of the Firstborn. This is why the Gospel (at any level of fullness, for God does not reveal the exact same thing to every child at the exact same time, no more than each child is born or dies or is resurrected at the same time) must be given or preached in righteousness, so that the right people get the right message at the right time by the right means in the right way, “right” meaning according to the Lord’s will and order. Every step is equally precious, provided by the same God who lovingly tends to each of His children individually. LDS will thus rightly testify that this is the highest and better path, They haven’t any better, and so share it according to the gifts God has given them; the same holds for those of any other faith to the degree the Lord has sparked their involvement. Let’s not pretend that everyone practices religion or claims divine guidance because the Lord actually led them to do so; there are many uninspired and even devilish motives in play out there.
Teancum Posted October 14, 2015 Author Posted October 14, 2015 It may sum things up for your prurposes. The higher and better path for anyone is the most recent one that God has presented to him. For some this presentation occurs in this life and for others in the next. And even the LDS Church, which I assume will continue to evolve here and there through future decades and throughout the Millennium, will one day be replaced with the Church of the Firstborn. This is why the Gospel (at any level of fullness, for God does not reveal the exact same thing to every child at the exact same time, no more than each child is born or dies or is resurrected at the same time) must be given or preached in righteousness, so that the right people get the right message at the right time by the right means in the right way, “right” meaning according to the Lord’s will and order. Every step is equally precious, provided by the same God who lovingly tends to each of His children individually. LDS will thus rightly testify that this is the highest and better path, They haven’t any better, and so share it according to the gifts God has given them; the same holds for those of any other faith to the degree the Lord has sparked their involvement. Let’s not pretend that everyone practices religion or claims divine guidance because the Lord actually led them to do so; there are many uninspired and even devilish motives in play out there.Given where I think you personally are at I find this a fair view. For me personally I cannot say I totally agree with it but I will ponder it, In spite of what some think here I do mull over most fairly and reasonably presented views.
Robert F. Smith Posted October 14, 2015 Posted October 14, 2015 The Varieties of Religious Experience by William James is an excellent read. I highly recommend it Right, and James never conceived of religious experience so narrowly as Teancum and his opponents seem to take it.
Teancum Posted October 14, 2015 Author Posted October 14, 2015 Right, and James never conceived of religious experience so narrowly as Teancum and his opponents seem to take it.I think you misunderstand me more and more,Not sure how my opponents play into this one.
CV75 Posted October 14, 2015 Posted October 14, 2015 (edited) Given where I think you personally are at I find this a fair view. For me personally I cannot say I totally agree with it but I will ponder it, In spite of what some think here I do mull over most fairly and reasonably presented views.Given that you seem to share the perspective of an author that can’t distinguish between the various ways the Lord communicates with His children and asserts that God is unreliable, and so concludes that all spiritual experiences are the same (“like the man who unplugs a spotlight…” -- https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/10/be-not-afraid-only-believe?lang=eng), I recommend you look to the Lord and stop mulling over such garbage! For example, if the author would have read his scriptures better, he would see that not only does the Holy Ghost bear witness of all truth, but “all things denote there is a God; yea, even the earth, and all things that are upon the face of it, yea, and its motion, yea, and also all the planets which move in their regular form do witness that there is a Supreme Creator.” (Alma 30:44). He would also see that “the light [of Christ] which shineth, which giveth you light, is through him who enlighteneth your eyes, which is the same light that quickeneth your understandings…” (D&C 88:11). And he would have seen that “the Lord God giveth light unto the understanding; for he speaketh unto men according to their language, unto their understanding.” (2 Nephi 31:3). And he would have seen other things that would have prevented him from going backwads, not forward. Edit: replaced "asserts that God is reliable" with "asserts that God is unreliable" -- pardon the confusion! Edited October 14, 2015 by CV75
Jeanne Posted October 14, 2015 Posted October 14, 2015 I don't think that one can gain a testimony about the LDS' claim to be the only true and living church by the witness of the Holy Ghost alone; more is required. We must read and ponder and pray and we must understand what we're reading - the witness of the Spirit (I believe) confirms what we realize as we follow the other steps; it becomes a confirming witness. As a boy and a member of a different church, I had many instances where I prayed and received this same witness of the Spirit - however when it comes to the question of whether the JCLDS is the only true church verses the other religions out there then the prayer for that answer has to be more focused and involve reading/studying, pondering (or ponderizing) and prayer; most importantly sincerity of heart in the seeking of that knowledge; when someone follows this pattern: then the witness will come of the truth. Followers of other religions don't usually pray in this way and don't seek this truth in this way so they don't have the testimony that we have of the church's truth because they never sought it; so they may very well feel the Spirit and have spiritual experiences and manifestations but not necessarily about which church is true.What is lacking then for people who study, pray, read and ponder that still come short of Moroni's Promise? When I found out things about the church that I did not know..I still read the Book of Mormon..studied..prayed and prayed hard...I had gotten a witness before (I thought) I found out some things ..this is in 2008..anyway, I remember that feeling..and it was more of a feeling that I belonged. I have since felt that many times..so what does this do to Moroni's Promise?
Jeanne Posted October 14, 2015 Posted October 14, 2015 Whoops..I went to edit my post and lost everything. Perhaps, that was good thing.
Teancum Posted October 14, 2015 Author Posted October 14, 2015 Given that you seem to share the perspective of an author that can’t distinguish between the various ways the Lord communicates with His children and asserts that God is unreliable, and so concludes that all spiritual experiences are the same (“like the man who unplugs a spotlight…” -- https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/10/be-not-afraid-only-believe?lang=eng), I recommend you look to the Lord and stop mulling over such garbage! For example, if the author would have read his scriptures better, he would see that not only does the Holy Ghost bear witness of all truth, but “all things denote there is a God; yea, even the earth, and all things that are upon the face of it, yea, and its motion, yea, and also all the planets which move in their regular form do witness that there is a Supreme Creator.” (Alma 30:44). He would also see that “the light [of Christ] which shineth, which giveth you light, is through him who enlighteneth your eyes, which is the same light that quickeneth your understandings…” (D&C 88:11). And he would have seen that “the Lord God giveth light unto the understanding; for he speaketh unto men according to their language, unto their understanding.” (2 Nephi 31:3). And he would have seen other things that would have prevented him from going backwads, not forward. Edit: replaced "asserts that God is reliable" with "asserts that God is unreliable" -- pardon the confusion!I was more interested and intrigued by the testimonies from those of other faiths than the actual article.
Popular Post Teancum Posted October 14, 2015 Author Popular Post Posted October 14, 2015 So I just want to let you all know today I went to the temple for the first time in quite a while. yes I still hold a recommend. And yes i was honest with my leaders as to where I am at and to my surprise they gave me a recommend. It was a good experience for me today to be in the temple. It has been too long. I was surprised that mostly I enjoyed it and felt good about it. And by the way I was asked to teach my HP quorum lesson once a month and said yes if they understood that I struggle to bear testimony at the end of the lesson. So I will be doing that and again, I feel quite good about it. At first when they asked me I did not feel good. But I thought it over and prayed about it and felt that yes I should do it. In fact I even want to do it. I have not had a calling for a couple years and my request. So this will be a good thing I hope. So hey, maybe you are all influencing me step by step. I just share this because I want you to know in spite of my ups and downs here, as well as my at times strident comments... I am an honest seeker of truth. 5
CV75 Posted October 14, 2015 Posted October 14, 2015 I was more interested and intrigued by the testimonies from those of other faiths than the actual article.Cool. God is wonderfully tender and kind to them, isn't He? Having some hindsight, I can spot the several times before my conversion to the LDS faith where God gave me spiritual truth in various ways, despite my not seeking or praying for answers. But it all bore fruit once I came across the Church. 1
CV75 Posted October 14, 2015 Posted October 14, 2015 So I just want to let you all know today I went to the temple for the first time in quite a while. yes I still hold a recommend. And yes i was honest with my leaders as to where I am at and to my surprise they gave me a recommend. It was a good experience for me today to be in the temple. It has been too long. I was surprised that mostly I enjoyed it and felt good about it. And by the way I was asked to teach my HP quorum lesson once a month and said yes if they understood that I struggle to bear testimony at the end of the lesson. So I will be doing that and again, I feel quite good about it. At first when they asked me I did not feel good. But I thought it over and prayed about it and felt that yes I should do it. In fact I even want to do it. I have not had a calling for a couple years and my request. So this will be a good thing I hope. So hey, maybe you are all influencing me step by step. I just share this because I want you to know in spite of my ups and downs here, as well as my at times strident comments... I am an honest seeker of truth.I hope the best to you! I'm sure things will work out for your finding happiness in the Church.
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