Testimonies Of Having The Truth From Other Faith Traditions

[Teancum]

Often here I have pointed out that personally I have found the claim to have a witness of the truth by the Holy Ghost as unreliable as a method for determining what really is the truth or the God's best religion. When making that point I have noted that human beings from all sorts of other religions and faith traditions claim to have had spiritual witnesses that what they beleive us in fact God's true path. Such traditions conflict with LDS truth claims as well as others. Thus this method seems unreliable

Many here have said argued that that these claims are not like the LDS claim of spiritual witnesses and thus not the same thing and perhaps even some other inferior experience. Others simply claim others experience was in fact not the Holy Ghost and what they think God was telling them was really something else and thus false.

Here is a link that discusses this issue. But of most interest is the variety of testimonials they provide. Many/most of them, especially the Christian based ones as well as the ones from Islam, sound just like an LDS testimony. Just change some names and they are just the same.

http://zelphontheshelf.com/i-bear-my-testimony-that-the-holy-ghost-is-broken/

So I am interested if, after you actually read the essay and the non LDS testimonies provided what your thoughts are on what seems a fairly universal phenomena in the experience of people all faiths. And how can this method be reliable when so many use it and come up with mutually exclusive conclusions?

[Senator]

So I am interested if, after you actually read the essay and the non LDS testimonies provided what your thoughts are on what seems a fairly universal phenomena in the experience of people all faiths. And how can this method be reliable when so many use it and come up with mutually exclusive conclusions?

 

I just thank God that he whispers faith, hope, charity and peace to the hearts of people wherever they stand.

[BTH&T]

As I read the essay, it feels as if this is an attempt to sew seeds of doubt in an LDS audiance

[Teancum]

As I read the essay, it feels as if this is an attempt to sew seeds of doubt in an LDS audiance

Was it tough for you to face that others claim exactly the same method for finding truth and giving similar testimonies to their beliefs as LDS do? Did you bother to read any of the testimonies provided? Are you afraid to challenge your own beliefs?

[Storm Rider]

Another discussed the acknowledgement of two churches - one of the Lamb and one of Satan's.  I stated there that the Church of the Lamb is much more inclusive and enfolds all those who follow after the Savior as well as those that teach elements or degrees of truth.  The only members in the Church of Satan are those that seek iniquity in a conscious manner.

 

When I hear the testimonies of others - Catholics, Muslims, Jains, you name the person and/or his religion, I acknowledge the truth they have learned and lived.  Their testimony in no way diminishes or belittles the testimony I have by the Holy Spirit.  I actually believe that they have been led by the Holy Spirit also....and yet my testimony remains.

 

If we are disciples of Christ we are also students of truth and claim all truth regardless of where it is found.  We are promised there will be a unity of the faith - I don't think that that unity is as understood as it could be, but I do believe we will become one.  I do believe there will be an acknowledgement that Jesus is the Christ - that every knee shall bow to him as Savior.  

 

If we are students of truth we will always be learning.  The fact that we will be learning means we will be learning truths one truth at a time and in the end they will all fit together in an eternal, unending truth.  It does not mean that I will be blown about by every wind of doctrine created by man - those are not truths, but falsehoods created to deceive.  

[saemo]

Often here I have pointed out that personally I have found the claim to have a witness of the truth by the Holy Ghost as unreliable as a method for determining what really is the truth or the God's best religion. When making that point I have noted that human beings from all sorts of other religions and faith traditions claim to have had spiritual witnesses that what they beleive us in fact God's true path. Such traditions conflict with LDS truth claims as well as others. Thus this method seems unreliable

Many here have said argued that that these claims are not like the LDS claim of spiritual witnesses and thus not the same thing and perhaps even some other inferior experience. Others simply claim others experience was in fact not the Holy Ghost and what they think God was telling them was really something else and thus false.

Here is a link that discusses this issue. But of most interest is the variety of testimonials they provide. Many/most of them, especially the Christian based ones as well as the ones from Islam, sound just like an LDS testimony. Just change some names and they are just the same.

http://zelphontheshelf.com/i-bear-my-testimony-that-the-holy-ghost-is-broken/

So I am interested if, after you actually read the essay and the non LDS testimonies provided what your thoughts are on what seems a fairly universal phenomena in the experience of people all faiths. And how can this method be reliable when so many use it and come up with mutually exclusive conclusions?

Personally, I believe people of good will are doing the best they can, according to their conscience and understanding. God meets us where we are at. I see that as a good thing. Edited October 11, 2015 by saemo

[Kevin Christensen]

I gave the issue a great deal of thought and came up with this "Model of Mormon Spiritual Experience."

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/22100469/model_of_experience.pdf

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

[filovirus]

Honest question:

Many people do not believe God still communicates with man. That it ended with the bible. Is not personal revelation and a testimony from the Holy Spirit communication from God to individuals? Especially when many religions hold a trinitarian view of the Godhead, or rather, that God is all three members in one.

[Ahab]

Comparing what other people say God says to what God says to me personally is an apples vs oranges comparison and I simply prefer to rely on what God says to me personally.

It's hearsay vs God's personal testimony to me.

Not even much of a contest.

[CV75]

Often here I have pointed out that personally I have found the claim to have a witness of the truth by the Holy Ghost as unreliable as a method for determining what really is the truth or the God's best religion. When making that point I have noted that human beings from all sorts of other religions and faith traditions claim to have had spiritual witnesses that what they beleive us in fact God's true path. Such traditions conflict with LDS truth claims as well as others. Thus this method seems unreliable

Many here have said argued that that these claims are not like the LDS claim of spiritual witnesses and thus not the same thing and perhaps even some other inferior experience. Others simply claim others experience was in fact not the Holy Ghost and what they think God was telling them was really something else and thus false.

Here is a link that discusses this issue. But of most interest is the variety of testimonials they provide. Many/most of them, especially the Christian based ones as well as the ones from Islam, sound just like an LDS testimony. Just change some names and they are just the same.

http://zelphontheshelf.com/i-bear-my-testimony-that-the-holy-ghost-is-broken/

So I am interested if, after you actually read the essay and the non LDS testimonies provided what your thoughts are on what seems a fairly universal phenomena in the experience of people all faiths. And how can this method be reliable when so many use it and come up with mutually exclusive conclusions?

Even the lowest kingdom of glory is infused with the light of Christ, and it is more wonderful than anyone can imagine. This light is throughout this temporal world also. Testimonies of this marvelous light come from the same source, and so will sound similar regardless of their attribution (“they are some of one and some of another”—D&C 76:98-101).

 

But there are even greater kingdoms, and as we build upon this fundamental kingdom greater truths and paths can be revealed as things are revealed by the light of Christ, the power of the Holy Ghost, and the Gift of the Holy Ghost, and another or Second Comforter. We begin this progression in this life, even without ever having heard the message of the Restored Gospel.

[rpn]

The Holy Ghost testifies of all truth.   That means it absolutely can testify to non-members about elements of their faith traditions.   The light of Christ might absolutely lead someone to follow a faith tradition that is not LDS, if it will lead them to become and be what they have been sent here to do.   Everything good comes from God.

 

The witness of the Holy Ghost is not unreliable.   Mortals are just not always prepared to understand the nuances of other's or their own journeys and accept that all the good and truth they understand now may not be all the good and truth they will understand after earnestly seeking Him for a longer time, or in a different way.

[Teancum]

Comparing what other people say God says to what God says to me personally is an apples vs oranges comparison and I simply prefer to rely on what God says to me personally.

It's hearsay vs God's personal testimony to me.

Not even much of a contest.

So your testimony trumps theirs. I imagine they think theirs trumps yours.

[Teancum]

I gave the issue a great deal of thought and came up with this "Model of Mormon Spiritual Experience."http://dl.dropbox.com/u/22100469/model_of_experience.pdfFWIW,Kevin ChristensenBethel Park, PA

I will be interested in taking a look.

[omni]

The Holy Ghost testifies of all truth. That means it absolutely can testify to non-members about elements of their faith traditions. The light of Christ might absolutely lead someone to follow a faith tradition that is not LDS, if it will lead them to become and be what they have been sent here to do. Everything good comes from God.

The witness of the Holy Ghost is not unreliable. Mortals are just not always prepared to understand the nuances of other's or their own journeys and accept that all the good and truth they understand now may not be all the good and truth they will understand after earnestly seeking Him for a longer time, or in a different way.

I have heard Individuals share their spiritual experiences confirming their decision to practice modern day polygamy - and they sound remarkably similar to ours. I'm not sure why the HG would provide a confirmation of polygamy to these individuals, yet require excommunication within our own church.

[saemo]

Honest question:

Many people do not believe God still communicates with man. That it ended with the bible. Is not personal revelation and a testimony from the Holy Spirit communication from God to individuals? Especially when many religions hold a trinitarian view of the Godhead, or rather, that God is all three members in one.

To answer your question, yes.

We hold Jesus as God's final and perfect Word. All that the Father has to say and give to humanity is in His Word. The Holy Spirit guides people to Truth. Truth has a name, Jesus Christ.

[Kenngo1969]

Perhaps the Spirit testifies to people of different faith traditions that they have the truth because, by and large ... they do. "Love God, and serve Him with all of your heart, mind, mind, strength, and soul"; "Love your fellow human beings"; "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Some version of these teachings (and much more) can be found in many faith traditions. That's the important stuff. The rest is just details. Whatever religious tradition we adhere to, we are blessed as we respond the best we can to whatever light we receive.

I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints because I believe it is the best way to achieve the most bounteous harvest of good fruit. I do not, however, look down my nose at those who adhere to other faith traditions who get (from my perspective) thirtyfold or sixtyfold. I am glad that their faith bears good fruit in their lives, and I say, "More power to them!" Now, if they would like to know how they might increase their harvest, I will be happy to share my perspective on how they might do that.

I've said this, or some variant of it, every time you've brought up the subject. Predictably, you ignore it. Have fun in your "All 'Er Nuthin'" world, Ado Annie!

[Kenngo1969]

 

I have heard Individuals share their spiritual experiences confirming their decision to practice modern day polygamy - and they sound remarkably similar to ours. I'm not sure why the HG would provide a confirmation of polygamy to these individuals, yet require excommunication within our own church.

If these folks want to pick and choose who they think is (or has been) a prophet and who is not (or hasn't been) that's their business. Many of them, though, want to "have their cake and eat it, too." "Joseph and Brigham are prophets," they might say, "but Wilford Woodruff, Gordon B. Hinckley, or Thomas S. Monson or [insert-Name-Here] went off the rails." I believe plural marriage was instituted by divine mandate; I believe it was rescinded the same way; and I believe the decision about what the consequences should be to those who believe the first proposition but not the second in the institutional Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Brighamite) vis-a-vis that institution also was inspired.

Anyone of a different opinion is free to disagree, but either Thomas S. Monson is the rightful successor in the possession of the keys originally given to Joseph Smith and passed down to each of the successors between them in that office, or he is not.

[Kenngo1969]

 

So your testimony trumps theirs. I imagine they think theirs trumps yours.

To him, yes it does. Why wouldn't it? Otherwise, he wouldn't be a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, he would be a Sunni Muslim, or a Shia Muslim, or a Buddhist, or a Zoroastrian, or a Baptist, or a Methodist, or a Roman Catholic, or a Jew, or a nonreligious theist, or an agnostic, or an atheist ...

[Damien the Leper]

Any religion that submits itself to God and seeks to love, do good, be humble, etc. are celestial faiths and not one can claim to be the best possible option. Faith and religion must strive to avoid arrogance and narcissism. The Spirit moves upon and within the children of God and is a blessing not one can claim, in true humility, to be exclusive to their faith tradition.

[MiserereNobis]

Honest question:

Many people do not believe God still communicates with man. That it ended with the bible. Is not personal revelation and a testimony from the Holy Spirit communication from God to individuals? Especially when many religions hold a trinitarian view of the Godhead, or rather, that God is all three members in one.

 

There is a lot of confusion about this.  I can only speak for Catholicism, but Catholics absolutely believe that God communicates with humans.  We ask for inspiration and guidance all the time.  Our Church Councils are filled with inspiration from God helping to clarify doctrine.  We have many many examples of Jesus and Mary and Saints appearing to people to give communication.  Jesus told St. Francis to go and rebuild His Church.  So yes, God communicates to humans, no problem.  When Catholics say "revelation has ended" what we mean is that Jesus was the perfect Word spoken by God and there is no other Word that God will speak.  That's different than saying God will not communicate with humans, as attested to all the times He has in the Catholic Church.

[Sleeper Cell]

Often here I have pointed out that personally I have found the claim to have a witness of the truth by the Holy Ghost as unreliable as a method for determining what really is the truth or the God's best religion. When making that point I have noted that human beings from all sorts of other religions and faith traditions claim to have had spiritual witnesses that what they beleive us in fact God's true path. Such traditions conflict with LDS truth claims as well as others. Thus this method seems unreliable

Many here have said argued that that these claims are not like the LDS claim of spiritual witnesses and thus not the same thing and perhaps even some other inferior experience. Others simply claim others experience was in fact not the Holy Ghost and what they think God was telling them was really something else and thus false.

Here is a link that discusses this issue. But of most interest is the variety of testimonials they provide. Many/most of them, especially the Christian based ones as well as the ones from Islam, sound just like an LDS testimony. Just change some names and they are just the same.

http://zelphontheshelf.com/i-bear-my-testimony-that-the-holy-ghost-is-broken/

So I am interested if, after you actually read the essay and the non LDS testimonies provided what your thoughts are on what seems a fairly universal phenomena in the experience of people all faiths. And how can this method be reliable when so many use it and come up with mutually exclusive conclusions?

What method do you find reliable “for determining what is really … God’s best religion?"

[MiserereNobis]

I can attest to my own spiritual experiences that led me to Catholicism.  I believe that the Catholic Church is the true Church of Christ, established by Him.  The gates of hell have not prevailed against Her.  I have felt God's presence in my life because of the Catholic Church.  The most powerful experiences for me usually happen when I am on a monastic retreat and am immersed in the liturgy, culminated of course with Mass and Communion.  I know these experiences because I have had them.

 

On the other hand, I do not base my belief in Catholicism solely on spiritual experiences.  They help, but I also use logic and reasoning and, ultimately in the final analysis, faith.  When all else fails, when I find myself in the dark night of the soul, it is faith that guides me, not spiritual experience or logic.  And when that faith feels empty and dry and sterile, then I just take another step forward anyways and eventually vitality returns.

 

One problem with relying to much on spiritual experiences and religious affectations is that they come like waves, highs and lows, and so if one's foundation is based on the high, then when the low arrives one may very well lose one's footing and fall.

 

Thomas Merton, who was instrumental in my conversion (the Pope mentioned him in his Papal address to congress!) repeatedly points this out, building on the foundation of many previous mystics, such as St. John of the Cross.

 

(By the way, I highly recommend Merton's autobiography The Seven Storey Mountain -- it is a religious classic whether you are Catholic or not.  It tells his story of conversion to Catholicism and then his calling to be a monk in the austere Trappist order.  It is very engaging and offers many religious insights.)

[canard78]

Comparing what other people say God says to what God says to me personally is an apples vs oranges comparison and I simply prefer to rely on what God says to me personally.

It's hearsay vs God's personal testimony to me.

Not even much of a contest.

But they would say exactly the same thing of you. So if they and you have fundamentally contradictory conclusions - what value does spiritual communication give you?

[omni]

If these folks want to pick and choose who they think is (or has been) a prophet and who is not (or hasn't been) that's their business. Many of them, though, want to "have their cake and eat it, too." "Joseph and Brigham are prophets," they might say, "but Wilford Woodruff, Gordon B. Hinckley, or Thomas S. Monson or [insert-Name-Here] went off the rails." I believe plural marriage was instituted by divine mandate; I believe it was rescinded the same way; and I believe the decision about what the consequences should be to those who believe the first proposition but not the second in the institutional Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Brighamite) vis-a-vis that institution also was inspired.

Anyone of a different opinion is free to disagree, but either Thomas S. Monson is the rightful successor in the possession of the keys originally given to Joseph Smith and passed down to each of the successors between them in that office, or he is not.

I understand that, but why are they receiving spiritual confirmations that their leaders are prophets? Why are they receiving spiritual confirmations to enter into polygamous marriages? These people are well aware of Moroni's promise, are using it, and are receiving answers contradicting the teachings of the LDS Church.

[Kenngo1969]

 

I understand that, but why are they receiving spiritual confirmations that their leaders are prophets? Why are they receiving spiritual confirmations to enter into polygamous marriages? These people are well aware of Moroni's promise, are using it, and are receiving answers contradicting the teachings of the LDS Church.

I don't know. You'll have to ask them. As for their standing before God, their standing before God is a matter between God and them, your standing before God is a matter between God and you, and my standing before God is a matter between God and me. If they're being led astray, I trust God to hold their leaders accountable for that. And "Inasmuch as men and women do good [men and women of whatever religious persuasion, or even of no particular religious persuasion at all] do good, they shall in nowise lose their reward."

Edited October 11, 2015 by Kenngo1969