Testimonies Of Having The Truth From Other Faith Traditions

[Teancum]

One other point for Kenngo if he drops back in.

I know I have brought this issue up before. But so what? The essay I saw struck a cord I me again. And while it has been sometime I wanted to discuss it again maybe with different information. That information would be the testimonies from people of other faiths that i found interesting. There are many threads here's that have been started over and over on the same topics. Why should this one be off limits?

Edited October 12, 2015 by Teancum

[Teancum]

From an Evangelical Christian standpoint, we shouldn't expect to hear voices from God. There is a dangerous trend today where people seek to hear a “word from the Lord,” extraneous to what He has already given us in the Bible. “The Lord told me . . .” has become the mantra of experience-driven Christianity. Unfortunately, what He “tells” one person often contradicts what He “tells” another, and these extra-biblical revelations have proven to be very divisive, tearing apart church after church as one person’s experience seeks to take precedence over another’s. This results in chaos, benefiting no one except Satan, who loves to sow discord among believers. We should make the apostle Peter our example in these matters. In spite of the miraculous experience on the Mount of Transfiguration, where he beheld the glorified Christ speaking with Moses and Elijah, Peter refused to rely on that experience, declaring instead that “We also have the more sure prophetic word which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place” (2 Peter 1:18-19, NKJV). http://www.gotquestions.org/God-telling-me.html

So do you think what Mormons and others call a spiritual witness is hearing voices? Mormons don't view it that way at least typically, nor based on my reading the spiritual experiences of others does it seem they do either.

[BlahBlahBlah]

So do you think what Mormons and others call a spiritual witness is hearing voices? Mormons don't view it that way at least typically, nor based on my reading the spiritual experiences of others does it seem they do either.

 

I can't speak of anyone's spiritual experience but my own, but I've never heard the Lord's voice that I'm aware of. There was one time when I was a new believer 25 yrs ago that I was praying intensely and I felt as though it must be God but I only heard my own thoughts say: "you have Me on your mind and you havce Me on your tongue but do not have Me in your heart."

 

And He was right.

[filovirus]

Here is section 91 from the D&C, with a bit of modification from me. I always hesitate to substitute words in the scriptures, as it does change meaning, but I found this to apt to this thread. I substituted "apocrapha" for "Insert name of non-LDS denomination".

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you concerning the [insert name of non-LDS denomination] —There are many things contained therein that are true, and it is mostly translated correctly;

2 There are many things contained therein that are not true, which are interpolations by the hands of men.

3 Verily, I say unto you, that it is not needful that the [insert name of non-LDS denomination] should be translated.

4 Therefore, whoso readeth it, let him understand, for the Spirit manifesteth truth;

5 And whoso is enlightened by the Spirit shall obtain benefit therefrom;

6 And whoso receiveth not by the Spirit, cannot be benefited. Therefore it is not needful that it should be translated. Amen.

[Raingirl]

I can't speak of anyone's spiritual experience but my own, but I've never heard the Lord's voice that I'm aware of. There was one time when I was a new believer 25 yrs ago that I was praying intensely and I felt as though it must be God but I only heard my own thoughts say: "you have Me on your mind and you havce Me on your tongue but do not have Me in your heart."

 

And He was right.

Why are you fixated on discussing audible voices when that isn't what this thread is about?

And just because you are unable to discern between your own thoughts and Heavenly Father's guidance does not mean that everyone else is similarly lacking.

[Storm Rider]

This used to work for me but now it seems that the testimonies of the various truth claims conflict. If Muhammed was a prophet and the Quran is true how can Any Christian Faith be the truth or how can Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon be true? Yet we have adherents of both claiming spiritual witnesses to conflicting truths.

Same of Catholicism. It claims preisthood authority as does Mormonism. Adherents of both claim spiritual witnesses that their faith is the true one. Both cannot hold God's preisthood power. One or the other, or even possibly both are incorrect and the adherents are either both wrong or one side or the other is wrong.

 

Teancum, you are trying to find perfection and single answers to complex questions.  How can you study history and world religions and not sense that God is active in all parts of the world and in all religions that have some truth?  If God is the author of truth does not all truth come from him?  

 

I grew up in a Christian household and we were taught the Bible.  Later we found the Church of Jesus Christ and were converted - we found a greater truth that fulfilled more of what we thought was truth than what we had.  

 

If I grew up in Qatar I know that I would grow up Muslim and I would believe in the Qur'an.  Having read the Qur'an a few times it is easy to find the beauty and glory of God reflected within many of its versus.  The same could be said about every religion and people on the earth.  Each has some degree of the truth.  

 

The difference between the Church of Jesus Christ and all other truth religions is that God, for whatever reason, has declared that a gospel of Exaltation with the truths required to fulfill his promise of such be on the earth.  No other church teaches or leads to this end.  There are a few Christian churches that come close, but they are missing certain doctrines and ordinances.  

 

It is not enough, imho, that we not find some truth and then hold strictly onto that truth that we have.  We have to pursue truth, love truth, and search for truth.  This is one of the beauties of the Restored Gospel - we recognize that we have some truth, but not all truth.  We believe fervently that there is more truth on the earth and more truth to come from God.  We are not complete and await the day where all truth will be acknowledge and brought into one faith.  This principle is important to me.  It strengthens my faith and helps to understand in a deeper manner the brotherhood of man and God's love for each of his children.  

[deli_llama]

I gave the issue a great deal of thought and came up with this "Model of Mormon Spiritual Experience."

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/22100469/model_of_experience.pdf

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

I read this a long time ago, and I have to say it was well thought out and written. I liked how you presented your thoughts/ideas and find it agrees with the experiences I have had. Thanks for reposting the link. If you like pie, I would bribe you with some, just so I could pick your brain.

[Tsuzuki]

So I am interested if, after you actually read the essay and the non LDS testimonies provided what your thoughts are on what seems a fairly universal phenomena in the experience of people all faiths. And how can this method be reliable when so many use it and come up with mutually exclusive conclusions?

 

"To you who yet wander in the Court of the Profane we cannot yet reveal all; but you will easily understand that the religions of the world are but symbols and veils of the Absolute Truth. So also are the philosophies. To the adept, seeing all these things from above, there seems nothing to choose between Buddha and Mohammed, between Atheism and Theism.

The many change and pass; the one remains. Even as wood and coal and iron burn up together in one great flame, if only that furnace be of transcendent heat; so in the alembic of this spiritual alchemy, if only the zelator blow sufficiently upon his furnace all the systems of earth are consumed in the One Knowledge.

Nevertheless, as a fire cannot be started with iron alone, in the beginning one system may be suited for one seeker, another for another.

We therefore who are without the chains of ignorance, look closely into the heart of the seeker and lead him by the path which is best suited to his nature unto the ultimate end of all things, the supreme realization, the Life which abideth in Light, yea, the Life which abideth in Light."

 

- Aleister Crowley, Liber Porta Lucis

http://lib.oto-usa.org/libri/liber0010.html

[Tsuzuki]

The difference between the Church of Jesus Christ and all other truth religions is that God, for whatever reason, has declared that a gospel of Exaltation with the truths required to fulfill his promise of such be on the earth.  No other church teaches or leads to this end.  There are a few Christian churches that come close, but they are missing certain doctrines and ordinances.

All the things that make Mormonism unique are commonplace in occultism.

[Meadowchik]

I willingly grant that such testimonials exist.

I even know a Catholic who read the BOM and felt her answer was "not for you at this time." Rather than shaking my faith, it buttresses my respect for hers.

I can freely allow the possibility that others can experience "truth" differently. This doesn't mean truth does not exist, though.

[Teancum]

I willingly grant that such testimonials exist.

I even know a Catholic who read the BOM and felt her answer was "not for you at this time." Rather than shaking my faith, it buttresses my respect for hers.

I can freely allow the possibility that others can experience "truth" differently. This doesn't mean truth does not exist, though.

I readily grant truth exists. And I grant there Is overlap. I am asking how one reconciles testimonies by the spirit or what people think is from God when the teachings or truth claims conflict. The LDS church and the Catholic Church both claim to be the true church and the only ones with the priesthood authority of God. This conflicts yet we have adherents of both claiming God has witnessed to them that their respective faith system is the one true church.

It seems for most responders her the answer is God witnesses to all truth wherever it is. Ok I can agree with that.

But then there is a further position that while God witnesses the one I beleive in has more light a knowledge and is thus superior. LDS commenters here seem to have this position. One Catholic poster here seems to believe that and one Evangelcal poster does as well.

My take so far is there is truth every where and God will speak to it. But there is not one true church, religion, etc. Nor do I think one has more than another. It seems that if God is there God speaks to humans in many ways I guess even if those ways and teachings conflict.

[Teancum]

"To you who yet wander in the Court of the Profane we cannot yet reveal all; but you will easily understand that the religions of the world are but symbols and veils of the Absolute Truth. So also are the philosophies. To the adept, seeing all these things from above, there seems nothing to choose between Buddha and Mohammed, between Atheism and Theism.

The many change and pass; the one remains. Even as wood and coal and iron burn up together in one great flame, if only that furnace be of transcendent heat; so in the alembic of this spiritual alchemy, if only the zelator blow sufficiently upon his furnace all the systems of earth are consumed in the One Knowledge.

Nevertheless, as a fire cannot be started with iron alone, in the beginning one system may be suited for one seeker, another for another.

We therefore who are without the chains of ignorance, look closely into the heart of the seeker and lead him by the path which is best suited to his nature unto the ultimate end of all things, the supreme realization, the Life which abideth in Light, yea, the Life which abideth in Light."

 

- Aleister Crowley, Liber Porta Lucis

http://lib.oto-usa.org/libri/liber0010.html

Nice quote.

[CV75]

First I am grinding no ax. I read this article and the testimonies give by believers in other religions and wa struck by it more than I have been before. So I wanted to discuss it. Second I am absolutely familiar my guess is just as much as you with the LDS teachings on the light of Christ, the power of the Holy Ghost and the Gift of the Holy Ghost as well as the Second Comforter. But thanks for the suggestion anyway.

The article is junk, ignorantly and judgmentally exploiting the testimonies of sincere people. If you were familiar with LDS teachings, you wouldn’t be mixing things up and challenging everyone out of the gate that, because they have found the Restoration that their guidance from God is more valid than those who have received alternative instruction for their circumstances.

 

Did you know that Teancum’s downfall was going forth in his anger to slay an enemy, and forgetting his true source of strength, suffered death under the hands of his betters (who were his enemies!)?

[Kenngo1969]

Congratulations!  You win!

[Teancum]

The article is junk, ignorantly and judgmentally exploiting the testimonies of sincere people. If you were familiar with LDS teachings, you wouldn’t be mixing things up and challenging everyone out of the gate that, because they have found the Restoration that their guidance from God is more valid than those who have received alternative instruction for their circumstances.

 

Did you know that Teancum’s downfall was going forth in his anger to slay an enemy, and forgetting his true source of strength, suffered death under the hands of his betters (who were his enemies!)?

I am as familiar with LDS teachings as you are and perhaps more so. I was an active believing member all my life. Served a mission, held many callings and many in leadership, studied the scriptures and other LDS writings fervently. Far more than most. For a variety of reasons I have found the LDS truth claims tenuous at best over the past number of years. Yet I still attend and participate. I come here to discuss LDS things and my question and concerns.

Your smugness exhibited above does nothing to foster discussion.

I don't challenge everyone out of the gate. I discuss. I have tried to improve my tone. I have been polite to every poster on this thread including you I suggest you do the same and lighten up. The topic is valid. I have never demeaned your testimony or any others. I started this thread to discuss why I personally find the idea of finding truth by a witness of the Holy Ghost unreliable. If it is reliable to you fine. I am happy for you. I at often wish I could be back at that place and even still I try to be.

Are you so insecure in this that you cannot discuss it without demeaning my knowledge and my intent?

Yes I know the story of Teancum. I adopted this name here a long time ago when I was more firm in my fifth and a hobby apologist. So what?

Apparently this is just to hot an issue for many her to discuss. I will try to not bring it up again.

Mods I think as the thread originator I can request the thread be locked. I don't know how to do so but please lock it with my post being the last one here. I would rather not have any other comments I the thread.

[Teancum]

Congratulations! You win!

Yea I expect a hip hip hooray from you. I thought you left there thread. Really I did nothing to deserve or warrant this crap from you and others on this thread. Again apparently this is just to raw a subject for many here.

And no, nobody won. The thread was not a contest to win anything.

Edited October 12, 2015 by Teancum

[Kenngo1969]

... Your smugness exhibited above does nothing to foster discussion.

 

 

Lemme get this straight: You want to call someone else out on his supposed "smugness," and yet you said this?

 

I am as familiar with LDS teachings as you are and perhaps more so. I was an active believing member all my life. Served a mission, held many callings and many in leadership, studied the scriptures and other LDS writings fervently. Far more than most. [Emphasis added by Kenngo1969.]

 

How the heck (I'm tempted to use another word) would you know that?  

 

 

That smacks of, "Lord, I thank thee that I am not [or at least, that I was not] as other men are ..."

[Kenngo1969]

Yea I expect a hip hip hooray from you. I thought you left there [sic] thread. Really I did nothing to deserve or warrant this crap from you and others on this thread. Again apparently this is just to raw a subject for many here.

And no, nobody won. The thread was not a contest to win anything.

"Left there thread"?  Where's your grammar, boy?  Is she in the kitchen?

 

Why is it a raw subject for us because you refuse all of the answers you're given?

[KevinG]

It is folly to judge other's faith experiences.  I do not presume to judge the truth of someone else's revelations or gifts of the spirit.  Indeed I have seen miracles and the efficacy of the atonement in other's lives who are not Mormon.

 

However, as Kennego pointed out the "all or nothing" argument is a straw man fallacy.  The LDS truth claims are not that other churches or religious traditions lack truth.  In fact our articles of faith, and our founding prophet all recognized the truth in other sects and encourage us to seek it out.

 

The fullness of the gospel, or having all of the authority, ordinances, and covenants available to us in mortality that will allow us to return to God the Father and , is what we claim to have.  

[KevinG]

... 

Edited October 12, 2015 by KevinG

[Teancum]

"Left there thread"?  Where's your grammar, boy?  Is she in the kitchen?

 

Why is it a raw subject for us because you refuse all of the answers you're given?

Sorry for the typos.

No Kenngo. If you bothered to read instead of pounce you would see that I have agreed with some of what you and others said. I have shared some other ideas of where I don't agree and why.

Is there something about you that someone has to agree with all your answers for it not to be raw? I am not angry at you for not agreeing with mine. I am annoyed in your tone and some others as well,

[Teancum]

Lemme get this straight: You want to call someone else out on his supposed "smugness," and yet you said this?

 

How the heck (I'm tempted to use another word) would you know that?  

 

 

That smacks of, "Lord, I thank thee that I am not [or at least, that I was not] as other men are ..."

My comment was I response to someone who challenged my knowledge of LDS things twice. I know that in my circle of LDS friends I had a reputation for being well read and studied and that is what I meant,

And once again I have called nobody out. The poster was smug in the comments. He essentially challenged my intent and knowledge and was in my view demeaning about it.

[Teancum]

How can I get this thread locked?

[KevinG]

Regarding the article linked at the opening of this thread...

 

The Apostle Paul said in his letter to the Corinthians "12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

 

Our ability to receive and understand eternal things should not be confused with the purity and truthfulness of those things.  We are subject to mortality in our reception of eternal truths.  

 

D&C 93 expounds on how we receive truth:

 

 27 And no man receiveth a fulness unless he keepeth his commandments.

 

28 He that keepeth his commandments receiveth truth and light, until he is glorified in truth and knoweth all things.

 

29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

 

30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.

 

Line by line, precept by precept.  Not even the most enlightened of the Saints can claim to know all truth.  But we are on a path to find greater truths and receive enlightenment through obedience to what we have already been given.

[KevinG]

How can I get this thread locked?

 

Why?