Letter To A Ces Director Problematic

[stemelbow]

Does Runnels really "insist" that Joseph had sex with Helen Mar Kimball?  (I don't think I read that far).

He does. he maintains, last I heard, Joseph was a pedophile.

[cinepro]

That was my impression after a 5-10 minutes skimming of it.  Same old stuff just another person throwing it out there. 

 

As others have pointed out, it's a little disingenuous (and silly) to expect the CES Letter to be something it never pretended to be.

 

Imagine if a non-member acquaintance of yours said "Hey Carbon Dioxide, I understand you are Mormon.  Would you be interested in sending me a letter describing why you believe in Mormonism, focusing more on the evidences and facts above and beyond the spiritual experiences?"

 

So you prepare "Letter To An Inquisitive Friend".  It describes all the things you find personally convincing about LDS truth claims, including facts and evidences about The Book of Mormon and early Church history.  What would that letter look like?  Would it be similar to reasons other LDS give for believing?  And if so, should your friend dismiss it as "just another LDS throwing it out there"? Would it contain a lot of new and innovative ideas that aren't available anywhere else?

 

Suppose your letter (which you took a lot of time preparing, sourcing and formatting) turned out to be a really, really good presentation that reflected the feelings of a lot of other LDS.  So much so, that they started sharing it as representative of many of the reasons they too believe.  Obviously this wasn't your intent, but that wouldn't be a bad thing, right?

 

And what if you got some stuff wrong?  What if some of the sources turned out to be not so good (as has happened many times over the years)?  What if you were writing the letter before the Kinderhook Plates were debunked and you included those as supportive evidence?  What if you included Quetzalcoatl, and had to be smacked down by Brant Gardner?  And as a result, people are accusing you of lying, of your whole letter being of doubtful veracity.  And even your motives being questioned...?

 

I suspect you would be a little miffed. 

 

The biggest mistake being made with the CES Letter is that it is obviously being used (and attacked) as something it (probably) was never intended to be. 

 

At most, it's only value to me would be as a good summary of what some LDS in the early 2010s were/are struggling with, and as a predictor for the subjects of future Church essays.  Other than that, it seems some apologists have to try and make it into something it was never intended to be in order to tear it down.

Edited September 2, 2015 by cinepro

[TheSkepticChristian]

Does Runnels really "insist" that Joseph had sex with Helen Mar Kimball?  (I don't think I read that far).

 

Yes, he wrote in FairMormon's debunking

 

Here’s what Helen Mar Kimball confided to a close friend in Nauvoo about her marriage to Joseph Smith:

I would never have been sealed to Joseph had I known it was anything more than ceremony. I was young, and they deceived me, by saying the salvation of our whole family depended on it.

– Mormon Polygamy: A History by LDS historian Richard S. Van Wagoner, p.53

What could Helen Mar Kimball have possibly meant that her marriage was something “more than ceremony” if not sexual relations?

 

How objective, his source in unreliable. Even if it is a good source, her alleged statement is still ambiguous.

Runnels is no better than Ed Decker.

Edited September 3, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[ALarson]

Runnels is no better than Ed Decker.

That's an unfair comparison.  As far as I've seen Runnels hasn't accused the church of Satan worshiping and other charges from Decker which are outrageous and unfounded.

 

Runnels issues are factual from what I've seen, but many of his conclusions are what I take issue with (such as calling Joseph Smith a pedophile).

Edited September 2, 2015 by ALarson

[Bernard Gui]

 

In the future there will, without a doubt, be yet another "Letter" that replaces the current "CES Letter." Unfortunately, some of today's generation makes life-altering decisions based upon internet memes. They want all of their answers in one sentence or less.

 Even better and truer when the catchy phrase is printed in clever poster form. So much debate today is with gotcha

internet memes.

Edited September 2, 2015 by Bernard Gui

[TheSkepticChristian]

Runnels issues are factual from what I've seen, but many of his conclusions are what I take issue with (such as calling Joseph Smith a pedophile).

 

and what about is patternicity? or his unreliable sources?  LOL

 

I agree with Dan Vogel when he said, "Google is a great tool, but it makes some people lazy. Gathering the data is simple; interpreting it quite another thing  "

http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/cracking-the-book-of-mormons-secret-combinations/

Edited September 2, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[ALarson]

and what about is patternicity? or his unreliable sources?  LOL

Runnel's sources are most likely many of the same sources used by FairMormon.  Again, it's mainly his interpretation and conclusions that differ.

[TheSkepticChristian]

Runnel's sources are most likely many of the same sources used by FairMormon.  Again, it's mainly his interpretation and conclusions that differ.

 

Give me a break, just look at what I said in post 28. Do you think hostile sources reliable?

 

Todd Compton wrote, " Therefore, as interesting as this statement is, it must be regarded with caution, as a secondary to Helen's own writings"

- In Sacred Loneliness, p 501

Edited September 3, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[Wiki Wonka]

and what about is patternicity? or his unreliable sources?  LOL

 

I agree with Dan Vogel when he said, "Google is a great tool, but it makes some people lazy. Gathering the data is simple; interpreting it quite another thing  "

http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/cracking-the-book-of-mormons-secret-combinations/

 

Well, here's what the author of the CES Letter writes in response to this quote by Stephen Harper: "Googling is not a synonym for seeking."  He simply doesn't seem to comprehend what Harper actually meant (which is exactly what Vogel was saying as well, in a more explicit manner):

 

The author of the CES Letter says:

 

"Google is a search engine. It is simply a tool. It is not a source. It is not a destination. It is not a conclusion. Google is the taxi; not the location. It's the phone; not the conversation. This is like saying, "The library is not a synonym for seeking." The library is just a tool or gathering place of books, papers, works, and sources. FairMormon is now perpetuating the general perception and reputation that the Church and its apologists do not want its members to be balanced researchers or to look up information about the Church and its history on Google."

Edited September 2, 2015 by Wiki Wonka

[rockpond]

and what is wrong with polygamy?

Is there evidence that Joseph Smith had sex with 14 yr olds?

Is there evidence that Joseph Smith was abusive?

 

I am not defending FairMormon,some of their answers are not good, but I see nothing wrong with Joseph Smith's polygamy

 

I wasn't commenting for or against polygamy, just noting that I think FAIRMORMON's response to that particular Warren Jeffs' comparison missed the mark.

[ALarson]

Give me a break, just look at what I said in post 28. Do you think late hostile sources reliable?

 

So?  What "late hostile sources" are you referring to?  Helen Mar Kimball's actual words?

 

Runnels has every right to look at the evidence surrounding Helen's marriage to Joseph and come to the conclusion that he believes that it was consummated.  Others look at the evidence and conclude it most was not.  The truth is that we really do not know.  And that's what I prefer to go with.

 

Edited September 2, 2015 by ALarson

[HappyJackWagon]

This passage from the original April 2013  "CES Letter" doesn't say he had sex with her, only that Joseph's association with her made him a pedophile:

 

The "CES Letter" says: "Joseph was 37-years-old when he married 14-year-old Helen Mar Kimball, twenty-three years his junior. Even by 19th century standards, this is pedophilia."

 

The term "pedophilia" is defined as "psychosexual disorder in which an adult has sexual fantasies about or engages in sexual acts with a prepubescent child of the same or the opposite sex". Pedophilia requires that the adult involved have sexual acts with a prepubescent child.

This is a good example of how the letter is too negative for my liking and reaches beyond the mark, causing damage to a valid argument.

 

Joseph wasn't a pedophile even if he had relations with Helen. Most thoughtful people would recognize that's not true. He overreaches. But what I do find to be true is that Joseph was inappropriate in his behavior with a 14 year old girl, 23 years his junior.

[TheSkepticChristian]

So?  What "late hostile sources" are you referring to?  Helen Mar Kimball's actual words?

 

How do you know they are Helen's actual words? That is why Compton said, "it must be regarded with caution, as a secondary to Helen's own writings"

He also said, "the extremism of this language is suspect... And other passages in Lewis's pamphlet seem unreliable" - In Sacred Loneliness, p 501

 

  The truth is that we really do not know.  And that's what I prefer to go with.

 

LOL but Runnells thinks he knows. I agree with can't be certain, but I hope you agree that there is no evidence.

Edited September 2, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[stemelbow]

Well, here's what the author of the CES Letter writes in response to this quote by Stephen Harper: "Googling is not a synonym for seeking."  He simply doesn't seem to comprehend what Harper actually meant (which is exactly what Vogel was saying as well, in a more explicit manner):

 

The author of the CES Letter says:

 

"Google is a search engine. It is simply a tool. It is not a source. It is not a destination. It is not a conclusion. Google is the taxi; not the location. It's the phone; not the conversation. This is like saying, "The library is not a synonym for seeking." The library is just a tool or gathering place of books, papers, works, and sources. FairMormon is now perpetuating the general perception and reputation that the Church and its apologists do not want its members to be balanced researchers or to look up information about the Church and its history on Google."

His complaining about apologists and members is what turns me off most. How he takes simple statement like the above and reasons out the way he does is problematic.

[stemelbow]

So?  What "late hostile sources" are you referring to?  Helen Mar Kimball's actual words?

 

Runnels has every right to look at the evidence surrounding Helen's marriage to Joseph and come to the conclusion that he believes that it was consummated.  Others look at the evidence and conclude it most was not.  The truth is that we really do not know.  And that's what I prefer to go with.

I agree, he doesn't know, so concluding Joseph is a pedophile is obstinate and represents the problem in all of this, if you ask me.

[Kevin Christensen]

Runnel's sources are most likely many of the same sources used by FairMormon.  Again, it's mainly his interpretation and conclusions that differ.

I noticed that Runnell's overlooked and/or ignored many of the standard sources on topics that he addresses, including both original documents and important scholars. He tends to uncritically cut-and-paste predigested interpretations and selection from standard hostile sources like Mormon Think, and to not bother with serious LDS scholarship, except to complain about it as being different than what he heard in Sunday School..

While interpretations and conclusions do indeed differ, there is much more to the difference than just interpretation of ambiguities. The same seed can indeed produce a vastly different harvest based on soil and nurture. But some of that nurture includes seeking out of the best books words of wisdom. There is a big difference in seeking out of the best books, and trusting MormonThink to select and digest everything worth knowing for you..

My essay is here, specific examples and all:

http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/eye-of-the-beholder-law-of-the-harvest-observations-on-the-inevitable-consequences-of-the-different-investigative-approaches-of-jeremy-runnells-and-jeff-lindsay/

See Neal's response here:

http://www.studioetquoquefide.com/2014/08/an-open-letter-2-to-jeremy-runnells.html

And a different take on faith journey here:

http://www.studioetquoquefide.com/2015/04/patient-faith-and-expanding-knowledge.html

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburgh, PA

[ALarson]

This is a good example of how the letter is too negative for my liking and reaches beyond the mark, causing damage to a valid argument.

 

Joseph wasn't a pedophile even if he had relations with Helen. Most thoughtful people would recognize that's not true. He overreaches. But what I do find to be true is that Joseph was inappropriate in his behavior with a 14 year old girl, 23 years his junior.

This is how I feel too.  The entire episode with Joseph going to Heber and asking for Vilate and then ending up taking his young 14 year old daughter for a wife is what I find upsetting.  I know others are fine with this, but I'm not.  And then the promises he makes regarding her family's salvation is even more unsettling.  But people seem to always focus on whether their marriage was consummated.

 

(And I agree that Joseph was not a pedophile even if it was.)

[ALarson]

I agree, he doesn't know, so concluding Joseph is a pedophile is obstinate and represents the problem in all of this, if you ask me.

Thus I go back to what I've stated repeatedly here.  It's many of Runnel's conclusions with which I take issue, not his sources or evidence or the subjects he writes about.

[TheSkepticChristian]

Thus I go back to what I've stated repeatedly here.  It's many of Runnel's conclusions with which I take issue, not his sources or evidence or the subjects he writes about.

 

Again, hostile sources are not reliable! How do you know the source has "Helen Mar Kimball's actual words"?

 

Why are you ignoring what Compton is saying?

 

 

"it must be regarded with caution, as a secondary to Helen's own writings"

He also said, "the extremism of this language is suspect... And other passages in Lewis's pamphlet seem unreliable" - In Sacred Loneliness, p 501

Edited September 3, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[Wiki Wonka]

His complaining about apologists and members is what turns me off most. How he takes simple statement like the above and reasons out the way he does is problematic.

 

What I find challenging is trying to make sense of responses such as that one.

 

Harper says,  "Googling is not a synonym for seeking". This is a very short statement that pretty much everyone I know intuitively understands: Seeking requires more effort than simply doing Google searches.

 

Vogel says, "Google is a great tool, but it makes some people lazy. Gathering the data is simple; interpreting it quite another thing." This is exactly what Harper was saying. 

 

CES author responds to this with "This is like saying, 'The library is not a synonym for seeking.'"   What?? He doesn't comprehend the original statement. How does one respond to that?

[Brian 2.0]

Unfortunately, some of today's generation makes life-altering decisions based upon internet memes. They want all of their answers in one sentence or less.

 

I realize you did qualify your statement with "some" but I'm not to fond of sentiments like this.  I know a good deal of people that left the church these past 10 years.  None of them did it quickly and ill-informed.  A lot were years of reading and reading and reading, most of the time diving into the scriptures and church sources much more than they did before they had questions.  Leaving the church is a really tough thing to actually do, it's a HUGE deal.  Most people that I know tried to find new paradigms, new contexts, read FAIR responses and church essays, they were looking for ways to believe it all still... but the answers/responses/etc just came up short for them.  

[readstoomuch]

This is how I feel too.  The entire episode with Joseph going to Heber and asking for Vilate and then ending up taking his young 14 year old daughter for a wife is what I find upsetting.  I know others are fine with this, but I'm not.  And then the promises he makes regarding her family's salvation is even more unsettling.  But people seem to always focus on whether their marriage was consummated.

 

(And I agree that Joseph was not a pedophile even if it was.)

As I understand it, Heber C Kimball had the idea for his daughter to marry Joseph.

[HappyJackWagon]

As I understand it, Heber C Kimball had the idea for his daughter to marry Joseph.

Heber made the offer for Joseph to marry his 14 year old daughter but that doesn't make it any better.

 

 

ETA- It would be interesting to see how someone like Heber would fit in with today's church. I don't think I'd like him much. Then again, in a different time and culture maybe he wouldn't be so ______________. (You fill in the blank)

Edited September 2, 2015 by HappyJackWagon

[rockpond]

I realize you did qualify your statement with "some" but I'm not to fond of sentiments like this.  I know a good deal of people that left the church these past 10 years.  None of them did it quickly and ill-informed.  A lot were years of reading and reading and reading, most of the time diving into the scriptures and church sources much more than they did before they had questions.  Leaving the church is a really tough thing to actually do, it's a HUGE deal.  Most people that I know tried to find new paradigms, new contexts, read FAIR responses and church essays, they were looking for ways to believe it all still... but the answers/responses/etc just came up short for them.  

 

Just the other day I was talking to a guy who spent well over a decade as a non-believing member.  He tried hard to make it work for his wife & family.  When he was in my ward, he faithfully served in a ward council position.  But in the end, it was just too hard and he resigned his membership.  His family has stayed active and he'll likely watch many if not all of his kids marry in the temple without him there.  Nothing easy about it.

[ALarson]

As I understand it, Heber C Kimball had the idea for his daughter to marry Joseph.

Yes, I agree.  And Joseph accepted.