An Exemplary Mission?

[bluebell]

It sounds more like a cultish indoctrination effort than a desire to bring the lost to Christ.

 

So what you're saying is that you don't believe this mission president and his wife care about bringing the lost to Christ?

[ERayR]

My blood just started to boil.

 

She probably wouldn't think to highly of your attitude either.

[bluebell]

"We are blessed to be in one of those very unique missions where baptisms are a definitive barometer of missionaries living their purpose.  Most importantly, they (baptisms) are a barometer of missionaries' conversion to the gospel of Jesus Christ.  In many missions this may not be the case but you have been blessed to be in the California Fresno Mission where living your purpose, baptizing, and becoming converted to the gospel of Jesus Christ are inextricably connected.  What a wonderful blessing it is to be a Missionary in the California Fresno Mission where....WE BAPTIZE!"

 

Oh boy!

 

I wouldn't be surprised if he was comparing his mission to those that historically have very few baptisms (such as European missions), where missionaries can go their whole mission and not have any baptisms.  I think he's saying that the Fresno mission does not struggle with those issues and that what holds back baptisms in that area are the missionaries and not the lack of willing investigators.  

 

That's what i'm guessing anyway-it's worded really oddly.  

[bluebell]

I had a friend years ago who quit the Church now but in his mission in Chile they had this cut out of Christ with his hands extended out, I think it was that second coming one by Harry Anderson. Anyways it was at the mission office. He said that all the missionaries that baptized that month their  headshots were on the right hand of Christ and all the ones that didn't were on the left hand of Christ. He told me he would cry because sometimes they couldn't get things going with people and whatever. Some GA came through the mission and saw this and took it down and did whatever

 

That's horrible!

[teddyaware]

For what it's worth (maybe nothing?), I just learned the article from the Fresno Mission blog that's quoted in the OP was publicized on May 9 on an ex-Mormon website. 

[Duncan]

That's horrible!

 

yep!!!

[BlueDreams]

Exact obedience was our mission's mantra. And I was a fairly exacting missionary. I still remember my mission president telling us that it is "better to be trusted than to be loved." So when I asked for an exception to a rule many moons later near the end of my mission (I'd naturally wake up 30 minutes to an hour early and asked for that time to read the scriptures), it was one of the biggest compliments when the MP said he trusted me to do that. Like Bluebell, I honestly don't think it was that tasking to be an exactly obedient missionary. The only times the rule chafed was when the rules had to change with the change of MP's and a mission merger. The 2 changes together took a while to adjust to, but frankly part of the reason it worked was because he stated the standard of the mission would be the white handbook and the PMG. I don't know if we ever exceeded goals and I know that we would try are hardest and with our companion weekly goals very rarely make it over. I would note a few missionaries who may have become discouraged because of this...including myself. But I'm glad for that too, because it taught me to pray and ask for His confirmation if what I did was enough. More often than not it was. And far from being unproductive missionaries, we were pretty good. Members generally trusted us, I'm still FB friends with a number of them. They knew we were focused on the work. I remember getting into one are that had become very lax about certain rules, we stopped that, and it got better. The sister there was newer, had grossly underestimated the work involved, and was really homesick and helping her really dig in and be obedient didn't exacerbate it, it helped her. 

 

I could see and have heard of missionaries who have moved from zealous to over-bearing when it comes to rule abiding. I had a DL who had that problem for a while and had a hard time with me because I wouldn't cow to his ideas of greater efficiency and Pharisaical ideals (plus I offended him early on...didn't help). With exact obedience comes the matter of following the Spirit  (also heavily mentioned and discussed and worked on throughout the mention) and all the other Christ-like attributes....and being yourself; your best self. And when that was there in droves with both companions, the work did flourish.

 

Was I exactly obedient? I felt like I was....there were a few times that I would technically not have been (based on the "letter of the law") but was in the sense that we followed the Spirit carefully, so that handful of times generally felt like following the "Spirit of the Law." Because of that I had no regrets, I'm not even fully aware whether my baptism rate was higher, lower, or average. It didn't matter because I did what God asked of me and part of that, I genuinely feel, was to be exactly obedient. 

 

The only companion that I had that I knew for sure struggled with anxiety and when I had her, bereavement (her grandfather had died the day before we became companions), culture shock, and probably a little depression...."exact obedience" was definitely difficult for her. She was struggling. But I felt how we dealt with it was still under the idea of being exactly obedient. After all the greatest law is charity/love of Christ. I still think that helping her work as much as she could was helpful for getting her to move forward as much as possible and begin to find the joy of mission service.

 

 

 So I guess I don't get the big deal with the message. If this was all he ever taught ever, than there would be a problem...there's no balance. But I doubt that...if only because my mission, which had it as a strong emphasis, certainly focused on other things as well. 

 

As for what as a parent can do for a kid struggling with anxiety...I'd remind him/her of the resources available: the companion, their leaders, counseling, etc. And I'd encourage them to do as much as they can and accept that that will be good enough with the Lord. Like any other illness, it takes time and you're not going to have the energy you have at other times. I don't know beyond that...there's not much a parent can do in a lot of respects. Remind them why they went out in the first place, etc. Reminding them of the difference of perfection and obedience, maybe? 

 

 With luv,

BD

[ERayR]

Exact obedience was our mission's mantra. And I was a fairly exacting missionary. I still remember my mission president telling us that it is "better to be trusted than to be loved." So when I asked for an exception to a rule many moons later near the end of my mission (I'd naturally wake up 30 minutes to an hour early and asked for that time to read the scriptures), it was one of the biggest compliments when the MP said he trusted me to do that. Like Bluebell, I honestly don't think it was that tasking to be an exactly obedient missionary. The only times the rule chafed was when the rules had to change with the change of MP's and a mission merger. The 2 changes together took a while to adjust to, but frankly part of the reason it worked was because he stated the standard of the mission would be the white handbook and the PMG. I don't know if we ever exceeded goals and I know that we would try are hardest and with our companion weekly goals very rarely make it over. I would note a few missionaries who may have become discouraged because of this...including myself. But I'm glad for that too, because it taught me to pray and ask for His confirmation if what I did was enough. More often than not it was. And far from being unproductive missionaries, we were pretty good. Members generally trusted us, I'm still FB friends with a number of them. They knew we were focused on the work. I remember getting into one are that had become very lax about certain rules, we stopped that, and it got better. The sister there was newer, had grossly underestimated the work involved, and was really homesick and helping her really dig in and be obedient didn't exacerbate it, it helped her. 

 

I could see and have heard of missionaries who have moved from zealous to over-bearing when it comes to rule abiding. I had a DL who had that problem for a while and had a hard time with me because I wouldn't cow to his ideas of greater efficiency and Pharisaical ideals (plus I offended him early on...didn't help). With exact obedience comes the matter of following the Spirit  (also heavily mentioned and discussed and worked on throughout the mention) and all the other Christ-like attributes....and being yourself; your best self. And when that was there in droves with both companions, the work did flourish.

 

Was I exactly obedient? I felt like I was....there were a few times that I would technically not have been (based on the "letter of the law") but was in the sense that we followed the Spirit carefully, so that handful of times generally felt like following the "Spirit of the Law." Because of that I had no regrets, I'm not even fully aware whether my baptism rate was higher, lower, or average. It didn't matter because I did what God asked of me and part of that, I genuinely feel, was to be exactly obedient. 

 

The only companion that I had that I knew for sure struggled with anxiety and when I had her, bereavement (her grandfather had died the day before we became companions), culture shock, and probably a little depression...."exact obedience" was definitely difficult for her. She was struggling. But I felt how we dealt with it was still under the idea of being exactly obedient. After all the greatest law is charity/love of Christ. I still think that helping her work as much as she could was helpful for getting her to move forward as much as possible and begin to find the joy of mission service.

 

 

 So I guess I don't get the big deal with the message. If this was all he ever taught ever, than there would be a problem...there's no balance. But I doubt that...if only because my mission, which had it as a strong emphasis, certainly focused on other things as well. 

 

As for what as a parent can do for a kid struggling with anxiety...I'd remind him/her of the resources available: the companion, their leaders, counseling, etc. And I'd encourage them to do as much as they can and accept that that will be good enough with the Lord. Like any other illness, it takes time and you're not going to have the energy you have at other times. I don't know beyond that...there's not much a parent can do in a lot of respects. Remind them why they went out in the first place, etc. Reminding them of the difference of perfection and obedience, maybe? 

 

 With luv,

BD

 

Well put BD.

[Tacenda]

She probably wouldn't think to highly of your attitude either.

Her blood was probably boiling too!

[ERayR]

Her blood was probably boiling too!

 

I saw nothing about  being a controlling husband.  I understood him to mean that he convinced her not coerced her.  Some members of my family used to think I was a controller toward my wife.  Not true.  No matter her demeanor in public nobody was her boss.  She was indifferent about some things but very passionate others.  I could sometimes convince her but never coerce her.

Edited May 28, 2015 by ERayR

[BlueDreams]

If he would have ended with something along the lines of 'you won't be able to be exactly obedient, but hungering after it your entire life will bring about many blessings.  Don't forget the miracle of the Atonement for the times when you fall short....' the rest would have been salvageable.  

 

He did mention right after the first statement this:

Focus:  While you can go through the motions of The Vision, Talking to Ten, and Exact Obedience, if your Focus is not riveted on the Savior Jesus Christ, His love, His Atonement, and His example you will do little to serve him and living your purpose will be difficult if not impossible.  I promise you that as you focus on Him, that as you serve because you love Him, and that as you follow His perfect example of loving, serving, and teaching you will be highly successful at living your Missionary Purpose and the Lord will trust you to bring many souls unto Him.  "How great shall be your joy!"

 

So that may help a little...

[BlueDreams]

Maybe, except you don't move on to other things on the mission. It's just 2 solid years of micro management. Maybe understandable if it was teenagers flipping burgers. Doesn't really make sense when applied to gospel teaching. 

 

I don't know if a mission, generally, fits the description of micromanagement. There can be a lot of rules, true, but the monitoring of them is fairly minimal (a weekly, self-written letter to the MP, gas/mile recordings, numbers reporting....and that's all I can think of at the moment). The vast majority of the time, it's just you and your companion and unless you do something particularly heinous, most won't know one way or the other what you do during the week.  Micromanagement usually infers close observation or controlling the work of subordinates. Generally, that wasn't the case. Considering some of them are teenagers fresh from HS who's professional life may not have extended beyond burger flipping, I think that's not bad.

[Okrahomer]

Wow! I'm assuming you have some inside information that would cause you to react so negatively towards Hope's benign statement. Do you know any of the missionaries or situations for which you were sent home? I imagine you don't. It would seem like a coupole of questions may be in order to better understand the comment instead of jumping to such a rude conclusion.

You may have missed Ivjd66's post #39: I think being the son of a Mission President ought to have provided some rather significant "inside information."

[BlueDreams]

one last thing...with the MP, did anyone else think it may just be a theme for the next 6 weeks (transfer) or so. Because when I looked further back the focus on exact obedience wasn't there. Of course I was only scan reading it. I really need to do my work now, but  Many of his older posts didn't have the words obey, obedience, or something like it anywhere in them. They focused on other things like being in sync with the spirit, working on retention, member-missionary work, examples of following the spirit, etc.... 

 

With luv,

BD

Edited May 28, 2015 by BlueDreams

[Kenngo1969]

 

My first Mission President was in this same vein.  He sent a lot of missionaries home.  My second president was much more loving.  Baptisms didn't decline with the second, he was just more Christlike in my opinion.  

 

 

Did we serve in the same mission, at roughly the same time?

 

I think exact obedience is a worthy aspiration.  How often it is achieved in a messy, fallen world full of other imperfect people that is also The Devil's Playground  is another question.

 

For more of my insignificant thoughts on the matter, see here: https://greatgourdini.wordpress.com/2014/06/01/gods-army-and-my-own-mission/

Edited May 28, 2015 by Kenngo1969

[bluebell]

He did mention right after the first statement this:

Focus:  While you can go through the motions of The Vision, Talking to Ten, and Exact Obedience, if your Focus is not riveted on the Savior Jesus Christ, His love, His Atonement, and His example you will do little to serve him and living your purpose will be difficult if not impossible.  I promise you that as you focus on Him, that as you serve because you love Him, and that as you follow His perfect example of loving, serving, and teaching you will be highly successful at living your Missionary Purpose and the Lord will trust you to bring many souls unto Him.  "How great shall be your joy!"

 

So that may help a little...

 

There you go!  

[ERayR]

Perhaps, but that is not within your stewardship to determine. My dad was once a mission president. A very good one at that. I often heard missionaries or even local members complaining about how he operated (he was very strict). Yet, I saw him struggle with the Spirit as he sought guidance. I saw what happened in the lives of the missionaries who listened and followed his guidance (not really his, but he was the mouthpiece for the mission), included actual biblical miracles. There were many who could not or would not listen. They still baptized. But they missed the mark. The Lord can reveal and does reveal to each and every mission president how He wants the work to proceed in his mission, including the implementation of what you call arbitrary rules. 

 

When they come from God, there is nothing arbitrary about them. Failure to understand that shows lots or pride and not enough humility.

 

This is worth a bump.

[Tacenda]

I can see the need for obedience. But like others have mentioned, balance is needed. My brother in law was a MP in Ireland, and he had to clean up a big mess, I'm thinking the previous MP didn't teach hardly any obedience. My beef was with the wife's obedience. But didn't see the sentence in context as far as the following sentences.

Edited May 28, 2015 by Tacenda

[Duncan]

I can see the need for obedience. But like others have mentioned, balance is needed. My brother in law was a MP in Ireland, and he had to clean up a big mess, I'm thinking the previous MP didn't teach hardly any obedience. My beef was with the wife's obedience. But didn't see the sentence in context as far as the following sentences.

 

 

there's a guy in my stake who served in Ireland and he still needs to be cleaned up!!!

[SeekingUnderstanding]

Exact obedience was our mission's mantra. And I was a fairly exacting missionary. I still remember my mission president telling us that it is "better to be trusted than to be loved." So when I asked for an exception to a rule many moons later near the end of my mission (I'd naturally wake up 30 minutes to an hour early and asked for that time to read the scriptures), it was one of the biggest compliments when the MP said he trusted me to do that. Like Bluebell, I honestly don't think it was that tasking to be an exactly obedient missionary. The only times the rule chafed was when the rules had to change with the change of MP's and a mission merger. The 2 changes together took a while to adjust to, but frankly part of the reason it worked was because he stated the standard of the mission would be the white handbook and the PMG. I don't know if we ever exceeded goals and I know that we would try are hardest and with our companion weekly goals very rarely make it over. I would note a few missionaries who may have become discouraged because of this...including myself. But I'm glad for that too, because it taught me to pray and ask for His confirmation if what I did was enough. More often than not it was. And far from being unproductive missionaries, we were pretty good. Members generally trusted us, I'm still FB friends with a number of them. They knew we were focused on the work. I remember getting into one are that had become very lax about certain rules, we stopped that, and it got better. The sister there was newer, had grossly underestimated the work involved, and was really homesick and helping her really dig in and be obedient didn't exacerbate it, it helped her.

I could see and have heard of missionaries who have moved from zealous to over-bearing when it comes to rule abiding. I had a DL who had that problem for a while and had a hard time with me because I wouldn't cow to his ideas of greater efficiency and Pharisaical ideals (plus I offended him early on...didn't help). With exact obedience comes the matter of following the Spirit (also heavily mentioned and discussed and worked on throughout the mention) and all the other Christ-like attributes....and being yourself; your best self. And when that was there in droves with both companions, the work did flourish.

Was I exactly obedient? I felt like I was....there were a few times that I would technically not have been (based on the "letter of the law") but was in the sense that we followed the Spirit carefully, so that handful of times generally felt like following the "Spirit of the Law." Because of that I had no regrets, I'm not even fully aware whether my baptism rate was higher, lower, or average. It didn't matter because I did what God asked of me and part of that, I genuinely feel, was to be exactly obedient.

The only companion that I had that I knew for sure struggled with anxiety and when I had her, bereavement (her grandfather had died the day before we became companions), culture shock, and probably a little depression...."exact obedience" was definitely difficult for her. She was struggling. But I felt how we dealt with it was still under the idea of being exactly obedient. After all the greatest law is charity/love of Christ. I still think that helping her work as much as she could was helpful for getting her to move forward as much as possible and begin to find the joy of mission service.

So I guess I don't get the big deal with the message. If this was all he ever taught ever, than there would be a problem...there's no balance. But I doubt that...if only because my mission, which had it as a strong emphasis, certainly focused on other things as well.

As for what as a parent can do for a kid struggling with anxiety...I'd remind him/her of the resources available: the companion, their leaders, counseling, etc. And I'd encourage them to do as much as they can and accept that that will be good enough with the Lord. Like any other illness, it takes time and you're not going to have the energy you have at other times. I don't know beyond that...there's not much a parent can do in a lot of respects. Remind them why they went out in the first place, etc. Reminding them of the difference of perfection and obedience, maybe?

With luv,

BD

Beautifully written! The problem as I see it is not discussing exact obedience but telling the missionaries (he does it several times over the one year period) that the failure to meet mission baptism goals is a result of lack of obedience. Edited May 28, 2015 by SeekingUnderstanding

[JulieM]

My beef was with the wife's obedience. But didn't see the sentence in context as far as the following sentences.

I don't care really what he said in the following sentences, my husband would never treat me like that or say I should obey him. I think that was pretty demeaning. I would not ever treat my husband like that either. Your initial reaction was spot on.

Edited May 28, 2015 by JulieM

[The Nehor]

I could see and have heard of missionaries who have moved from zealous to over-bearing when it comes to rule abiding. I had a DL who had that problem for a while and had a hard time with me because I wouldn't cow to his ideas of greater efficiency and Pharisaical ideals (plus I offended him early on...didn't help). With exact obedience comes the matter of following the Spirit  (also heavily mentioned and discussed and worked on throughout the mention) and all the other Christ-like attributes....and being yourself; your best self. And when that was there in droves with both companions, the work did flourish.

 

You behaved better then I did. When my Zone Leader wandered into that territory and I got annoyed I threw a punch at him.

 

You have a weird split that comes because some missionaries have to have the idea of obedience being important drilled into their heads regularly or they do not understand. Then you have others who see the slightest missteps as opening the doors of damnation.

 

One of my Mission Presidents commented on this and pointed out the hypocrisy of being that cruel to ourselves. To paraphrase: "You go out there every day and tell people guilty of horrific sins that God will forgive them and the Atonement can heal them. Then when you commit a relatively minor sin or sometimes even a mistake that is not a sin many of you go to pieces and sink into self-pity and imagine that your sins, on the other hand, are unforgivable." He then enjoined us to believe the atonement applies to all and that minor sins can be repented of quickly in minutes or even seconds and then we can move on. "Let the Lord save you the way you testify with confidence that He can save your investigators."

[Mystery Meat]

I think one thing that is oddly misinterpreted by many and then trumpeted about is what Christ meant when he called the various Jewish sects hypocrites. Never once is obedience dismissed as not important. It was the pride and arrogance of those who THOUGHT they were so much better than others because of their SUPPOSED obedience (yes, this does describe a missionary or two...or three) that the Savior despised. It was the thought that somehow their righteousness saved them and His Atonement was not necessary, an attitude that does not and never has fit into the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. Tell me where the Lord in his mortal ministry ever said, "It is okay to be disobedient just this once." The closest thing I can think of is the time His apostles were eating in the field on the Sabbath. However, that example does not fit, because the Lord explained that they were living a higher law at the time and thus obedient.

 

The other false and wicked notion I often hear brandied about is the false doctrine that exact obedience distracts from a persons ability to follow the Spirit, as if somehow they are incompatible. They are not and in fact go hand in hand. 

[The Nehor]

I think one thing that is oddly misinterpreted by many and then trumpeted about is what Christ meant when he called the various Jewish sects hypocrites. Never once is obedience dismissed as not important. It was the pride and arrogance of those who THOUGHT they were so much better than others because of their SUPPOSED obedience (yes, this does describe a missionary or two...or three) that the Savior despised. It was the thought that somehow their righteousness saved them and His Atonement was not necessary, an attitude that does not and never has fit into the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. Tell me where the Lord in his mortal ministry ever said, "It is okay to be disobedient just this once." The closest thing I can think of is the time His apostles were eating in the field on the Sabbath. However, that example does not fit, because the Lord explained that they were living a higher law at the time and thus obedient.

 

The other false and wicked notion I often hear brandied about is the false doctrine that exact obedience distracts from a persons ability to follow the Spirit, as if somehow they are incompatible. They are not and in fact go hand in hand. 

 

To be fair Jesus was not calling them to a higher law. Jesus kept the Law of Moses perfectly. He just did not respect the traditions of the Pharisees that added additional commandments to the Law and got in trouble for it. You will not find a commandment not to heal on the Sabbath in the Torah but someone added it afterwards.

[Stargazer]

I served in Germany in the 70's.  In my mission, that period of time was the nadir of baptisms.  On a year-by-year basis, the years before 72-74 had more baptisms, and the years after had more baptisms.  I don't know if it was because of the failure of missionaries to exactly obey the mission rules, but thinking back, I don't believe that any of my companions nor I were markedly disobedient.  In fact, I believe that we were quite obedient.  Perhaps our mission president (Rudolf Poecker) wasn't a huge fan of rule-itis.  What he was, was dedicated servant of the Lord who never took himself too seriously, and I believe he truly loved all the missionaries for whom he was responsible.

 

I baptized one person on my mission.  I know of one elder who baptized none, and he was not a rule-breaker.  It was quite simply a bad time for finding investigators.  That's the only thing I can suppose.

 

I have a personal story in connection with mission rules, and the breaking and following of them.  In the Language Training Mission (this was before the MTC was built) in Provo, UT, the German-speaking missionaries occupied the Amanda Knight Hall, an old BYU student dorm.  About midway through the 8 week training cycle, there was something that I was trying to understand about my patriarchal blessing.  For a period of about a week, after lights-out and once everyone else in my dorm-room was asleep, I would repair to an empty classroom at the end of the floor to pray.  It was warm, so the window was open, and I each night I knelt there and prayed for knowledge about the particular I was looking to understand.  The Spirit I felt while praying was great, and I felt very strongly that the Lord was listening, and that He wanted to give me what I was asking for, but I also felt that He was holding back, waiting for something.

 

The German-speaking District had a director and an assistant director, both very spiritual and dedicated men, and I decided to go to the assistant for advice.  I explained the problem to him, and then he said something that surprised me.  It was this: how could the Lord bless me in the way I was asking when I was breaking the mission rules while I was asking Him for the blessing.  I was very puzzled, and asked him what he was talking about, whereupon he told me that the mission rule was: once lights were out, we were to stay in our beds and sleep, except for necessary calls of nature, until morning wakeup.  He said that if the Lord were to bless me while I was breaking the rules which I had agreed to obey, then the Lord would be teaching me the benefits of disobedience.  I told him that I hadn't thought of it that way, but that I thought I needed some solitude for prayer, and I could hardly ever get it unless it was at night when everyone was sleeping.  So what was I to do?

 

He reminded me that during the day when we were in the dormitory, outside of classroom time there were plenty of opportunities to locate an empty room, and be able to pray undisturbed, and this was especially true on Sundays.  While inside the dormitory (which also doubled as classroom space on the first floor), we were not required to always be with our companions, so I should be able to have no problem finding quiet time to pray.  I told him that I would comply and do as he suggested.

 

The next Sunday was Fast Sunday, and after Sacrament meeting I went and found an empty room, and again brought my question to the Lord.  The result was confirming of the principle that the Lord expects His servants to serve according to His order.  I received what was one of the most amazing revelatory experiences of my life, and it was the answer to my question. 

 

I have a testimony of the fact that the Lord will bless His servants who obediently serve him.  Now, I do not wish to comment upon the question of whether some mission presidents go too far in their rule-making.  Perhaps some of them go too far, but I am not in their various positions, nor do I have their responsibilities.  I would be careful in my judging of such matters.