An Exemplary Mission?

[BookofMormonLuvr]

It can be, no doubt.  

 

But again, i have to return to the scriptures, where i cannot find any support for the idea that a focus on obedience is cruel.  

Again, the potential trouble of being zealously focused on obedience is you can create people without mercy for others or themselves. Which can make repentance from a "fall from grace" exponentially harder both for the person himself and those around him who fall, to whom he should be extending mercy.

Edited May 27, 2015 by BookofMormonLuvr

[bluebell]

Again, the potential trouble of being zealously focused on obedience is you can create people without mercy for others or themselves. Which can make repentance from a "fall from grace" exponentially harder both for the person himself and those around him who fall, to whom he should be extending mercy.

Very true.

[Senator]

Brothers and sisters, we obey the commandments of God—out of love for Him!

 

Trying to understand God’s gift of grace with all our heart and mind gives us all the more reasons to love and obey our Heavenly Father with meekness and gratitude. As we walk the path of discipleship, it refines us, it improves us, it helps us to become more like Him, and it leads us back to His presence. “The Spirit of the Lord [our God]” brings about such “a mighty change in us, … that we have no more disposition to do evil, but to do good continually.”²⁸

 

Therefore, our obedience to God’s commandments comes as a natural outgrowth of our endless love and gratitude for the goodness of God. This form of genuine love and gratitude will miraculously merge our works with God’s grace. Virtue will garnish our thoughts unceasingly, and our confidence will wax strong in the presence of God.²⁹

 

-E. Uchdorf

 

 

I deeply wonder how many of this mission's missionaries will be engaged in exact obedience because of "a natural outgrowth of [their] endless love and gratitude for the goodness of God"?

Edited May 27, 2015 by Senator

[Buckeye]

Wow, that letter could have come straight out of my mission 20 years ago, which was also in California. Our goal was always 150/month, and we never got it. Being spanish-speaking, I baptized more than most, but never because of strict obedience. I was obedient, mind you, but was also blessed to learn early on about the difference between rules and principles, and when to follow the spirit. I attribute all my success to the principle of giving up my own desires and loving the people. That's the first and second great commandment: Love. Obedience - particularly to limited mortals - comes much lower down.

 

I can also speak to the great harm of tying numbers success to worthiness and obedience. Last time I checked, baptismal covenants require the agency of those we teach. If we judge missionaries by their numbers, then Noah was  one of the least obedient, unrighteous, lousy missionaries ever sent forth. What a loser.

 

I would also add some sympathy for the mission president. While he is pushing the obedience=number tripe to his mission, I'm confident that push is coming down on him in the first instance (i.e., "President, the mission next to you baptized twice as many as you last month; the only thing we can conclude is that you are letting your missionaries flout the rules.")

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

The problem (IMHO) comes when strict obedience (which is unobtainable) is linked with success in the mission field. When an Elder or Sister who has anxiety problems anyway heres messages like this, it can cause further depression. Blaming lack of success on the fact that you stayed 5 minutes extra at a dinner appointment is unhealthy. 

 

In my experience, some of the worst missionaries were the best baptizers. As an extremely obedient unsuccessful missionary, I can honestly say I never saw any correlation between obedience and teaching success. 

I have some personal experience with this very thing that has always been at the fore front of my mission experiences that I wish was not.

 

I served in WV in 97-99. In one area I was was a very rural area. We had a care and bike racks. My comp and myself decided that to be more effective we would take our bikes with us on the care and tract the hollows (pronounced "holler") with our bikes, so we could talk to more people than just walking. I think we had something like 650 contacts for the week about every week. Which was really high for a rural area.

 

The AP's thought we were lying about our numbers because we did not have the baptisms or that many number of higher taught discussions. And they thought we were not being obedient because of it. The AP's talk at zone conference was all about being obedient and using the BoM effective to baptize. One of his quotes was "I promise you that as you use the BoM effectively you will baptize 4 times the amount. "

 

My comp and I laughed as we noted that any number times 0 is still 0. But we were really put off because what more could we do? We were obeying all the rules and packing our lunches to staying out to tract more and not drive back home for lunch. It would take 30 mins just to get home and another 30 mins to get back to the area we were tracing. I had never worked so physically hard as I did then even to this day.

 

My next area was my last. I happened to get a comp that was not so obedient and was way more laid back than I. We were baptizing left and right. I was really stumped for a long time on what the issue was. My issue is that I was so wrapped up in the letters of the law that I was not looking very approachable.

 

Obedience does have it's place in missionary work. I think the more important goal is for that of the people that you are serving. And believe it or not you can still do that even if you don't wake up at 6:30 every morning.

 

 

I am not saying break mission rules. Just that in hind sight a lot of that stuff is just fluff and I should have had different goals.

[Senator]

 We were obeying all the rules

 

Ah, but were you obeying them with exactness????

[Buckeye]

I have some personal experience with this very thing that has always been at the fore front of my mission experiences that I wish was not.

 

I served in WV in 97-99. In one area I was was a very rural area. We had a care and bike racks. My comp and myself decided that to be more effective we would take our bikes with us on the care and tract the hollows (pronounced "holler") with our bikes, so we could talk to more people than just walking. I think we had something like 650 contacts for the week about every week. Which was really high for a rural area.

 

The AP's thought we were lying about our numbers because we did not have the baptisms or that many number of higher taught discussions. And they thought we were not being obedient because of it. The AP's talk at zone conference was all about being obedient and using the BoM effective to baptize. One of his quotes was "I promise you that as you use the BoM effectively you will baptize 4 times the amount. "

 

My comp and I laughed as we noted that any number times 0 is still 0. But we were really put off because what more could we do? We were obeying all the rules and packing our lunches to staying out to tract more and not drive back home for lunch. It would take 30 mins just to get home and another 30 mins to get back to the area we were tracing. I had never worked so physically hard as I did then even to this day.

 

My next area was my last. I happened to get a comp that was not so obedient and was way more laid back than I. We were baptizing left and right. I was really stumped for a long time on what the issue was. My issue is that I was so wrapped up in the letters of the law that I was not looking very approachable.

 

Obedience does have it's place in missionary work. I think the more important goal is for that of the people that you are serving. And believe it or not you can still do that even if you don't wake up at 6:30 every morning.

 

 

I am not saying break mission rules. Just that in hind sight a lot of that stuff is just fluff and I should have had different goals.

 

Excellent. And thanks for your service in WV. We have a number of families in our ward with ties to WV. They're great members. My wife's grandparents served a mission in WV in the 90s and in some areas didn't have running water.

[Buckeye]

As another example of obedience and results, I would point out the difference between BYU-Idaho and BYU-Provo. Obedience is pushed more heavily in Idaho, but Provo is the better school.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Ah, but were you obeying them with exactness????

Yes, I even remember the scriptures used to justify that.

 

"We have been told by a prophet of God through our mission president that if we obey the mission rules with exactness we will baptize one person every month". That was told to me by one elder in Elkins WV who was in our district. That did not happen for me and a whole host of other elders and sisters.

[Mystery Meat]

I don't see where you can find this drum beat march for robot-like obedience in the gospel message. It's like when you become a missionary you join a different version of the LDS church. 

 

Have you ever read the scriptures? Samuel, upon the Lord's instruction, commanded Saul to leave no living thing alive in one of their many battles. Saul spared the life of the king. What did Samuel do? He killed the King himself. 

 

Or as Samuel once said, "To obey is greater than to sacrifice."

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Have you ever read the scriptures? Samuel, upon the Lord's instruction, commanded Saul to leave no living thing alive in one of their many battles. Saul spared the life of the king. What did Samuel do? He killed the King himself. 

 

Or as Samuel once said, "To obey is greater than to sacrifice."

Equating every arbitrary rule by local leadership to a direct command from the LORD is a bit of a stretch.

[HappyJackWagon]

Perfection is unattainable, but exact obedience to a set of mission rules is very much attainable.  Especially in a specific set amount of time.  No one can do everything perfectly forever, but pretty much all of us can be obedient to specific measurable rules for a week or a month.  I don't think that God has anywhere declared that exact obedience to mission rules in order to achieve a goal is impossible.

 

 

 

 

 

I fail to see the difference between perfection and exact obedience. And claiming that it must be possible because God has never declared that "exact obedience to mission rules" is unattainable is absurd.

 

The push for perfection/exact obedience (whatever you want to call it) is impossible. Thankfully we have the atonement so perfection in keeping mission rules isn't essential to our salvation, but it's preached as if it is. Setting unrealistic expectations where the failure to attain perfection is a symptom of your wothlessness is a harmful, ridiculous teaching. I wouldn't want my son going to a mission with this kind of mentality.

 

Teach them principles and let them govern themselves and stop making missionaries feel like crap because they're not perfect. I've got news for them, the mission president isn't perfect either.

[hope_for_things]

Where does this stuff come from? I was warned about it going into my mission. I knew very well that exact obedience was impossible, and that obedience doesn't translate to baptisms, and that most of the mission rules have nothing to do with real life. Some of them have to do with safety and some of them are the whims of the mission pres. It was the program and I just went with it and did my best. 

 

I don't see where you can find this drum beat march for robot-like obedience in the gospel message. It's like when you become a missionary you join a different version of the LDS church. 

 

My first Mission President was in this same vein.  He sent a lot of missionaries home.  My second president was much more loving.  Baptisms didn't decline with the second, he was just more Christlike in my opinion.  

 

This gets back to the obedience is the first law of heaven teaching, that I believe contradicts the scriptures.  I also don't understand why obedience is seen as a virtue in and of itself.  Big problem in our culture, and I would be fearful of having my children sent to a mission like this.  

 

I think he should read Elder Uchtdorf's talk from last priesthood session.  Really good comments about this problem.  

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/04/on-being-genuine?lang=eng

[Mystery Meat]

Equating every arbitrary rule by local leadership to a direct command from the LORD is a bit of a stretch.

 

Perhaps, but that is not within your stewardship to determine. My dad was once a mission president. A very good one at that. I often heard missionaries or even local members complaining about how he operated (he was very strict). Yet, I saw him struggle with the Spirit as he sought guidance. I saw what happened in the lives of the missionaries who listened and followed his guidance (not really his, but he was the mouthpiece for the mission), included actual biblical miracles. There were many who could not or would not listen. They still baptized. But they missed the mark. The Lord can reveal and does reveal to each and every mission president how He wants the work to proceed in his mission, including the implementation of what you call arbitrary rules. 

 

When they come from God, there is nothing arbitrary about them. Failure to understand that shows lots or pride and not enough humility.

[Mystery Meat]

I fail to see the difference between perfection and exact obedience. And claiming that it must be possible because God has never declared that "exact obedience to mission rules" is unattainable is absurd.

 

 

The answer is found in the scriptural source for the phrase "exact obedience."

[Mystery Meat]

 

My first Mission President was in this same vein.  He sent a lot of missionaries home.  My second president was much more loving.  Baptisms didn't decline with the second, he was just more Christlike in my opinion.  

 

What a complete load of bull crap.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Perhaps, but that is not within your stewardship to determine. My dad was once a mission president. A very good one at that. I often heard missionaries or even local members complaining about how he operated (he was very strict). Yet, I saw him struggle with the Spirit as he sought guidance. I saw what happened in the lives of the missionaries who listened and followed his guidance (not really his, but he was the mouthpiece for the mission), included actual biblical miracles. There were many who could not or would not listen. They still baptized. But they missed the mark. The Lord can reveal and does reveal to each and every mission president how He wants the work to proceed in his mission, including the implementation of what you call arbitrary rules. 

 

When they come from God, there is nothing arbitrary about them. Failure to understand that shows lots or pride and not enough humility.

Even Mission Presidents carry with them personal biases about certain things that most certainly affect the rules they implement, to deny that is just being in a state of denial. One mission you can listen to Christian music, another you can't even listen to the MoTab. I doubt the spirit is guiding those type of decisions.

Edited May 27, 2015 by BookofMormonLuvr

[Mystery Meat]

Even Mission Presidents carry with them personal biases about certain things that most certainly affect the rules they implement, to deny that is just being in a state of denial. One mission you can listen to Christian music, another you can't even listen to the MoTab. I doubt the spirit is guiding those type of decisions.

 

That's your right. But every mission is different and the needs and circumstances as well. Hopefully missionaries around the world have enough faith to allow the Lord to work through their mission president in all things.

[hope_for_things]

What a complete load of bull crap.

 

Care to clarify your comment, without the negativity.  Did you serve in my mission?  What don’t you agree with?  

[Senator]

Perhaps, but that is not within your stewardship to determine.

 

Actually it is.

 

Individual members do not have the stewardship to dictate to others or the leadership what is the command of the Lord, but "let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not.”

 

I can honestly say that by the same whisperings that affirmed the teachings of God, there were teachings and methods espoused in my mission that were not affirmed.

Edited May 27, 2015 by Senator

[Gray]

Have you ever read the scriptures? Samuel, upon the Lord's instruction, commanded Saul to leave no living thing alive in one of their many battles. Saul spared the life of the king. What did Samuel do? He killed the King himself. 

 

Or as Samuel once said, "To obey is greater than to sacrifice."

 

Right, if you need to appeal to the genocide chapters, then you've already demonstrated the folly of this mindset. 

[Gray]

What a complete load of bull crap.

 

The Biblical Jesus didn't seem to have a lot of respect for Pharisaical rules. 

[ERayR]

Have/do any of you work in the corporate world?  Show me a successful organization that doesn't have rules that members of those organizations are expected to adhere to.  They have those rules because there is an expectation that adherence to them will bring greater success.  No difference with a mission. 

[Mystery Meat]

Care to clarify your comment, without the negativity.  Did you serve in my mission?  What don’t you agree with?  

 

I did not serve in your mission, but sending missionaries home is not an indicator of being more or less Christlike. 

[bluebell]

The Biblical Jesus didn't seem to have a lot of respect for Pharisaical rules. 

 

No He didn't.  He did however have a great deal of respect for legitimate rules (He was the author of the law of Moses after all, which had some aspects that had to be obey with exactness, especially when it came to sacrifice of animals and such).

 

I completely agree that someone can take obedience with exactness too far and i don't think it's appropriate for all situations.  But let's not pretend that Christ doesn't care if we don't obey Him or His leaders or that He has no respect for His leaders when they ask for obedience.  Even in a leader's weakness, i still don't think that Christ is pleased to hear them spoken badly of.