Senator Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 As a father of a son that will be entering the mission field in the coming weeks, this "strategy" greatly concerns me. http://fresnomission.blogspot.com/2015/05/presidents-weekly-why-of-exact-obedience.html 1
Gray Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 Where does this stuff come from? I was warned about it going into my mission. I knew very well that exact obedience was impossible, and that obedience doesn't translate to baptisms, and that most of the mission rules have nothing to do with real life. Some of them have to do with safety and some of them are the whims of the mission pres. It was the program and I just went with it and did my best. I don't see where you can find this drum beat march for robot-like obedience in the gospel message. It's like when you become a missionary you join a different version of the LDS church. 1
Popular Post bluebell Posted May 27, 2015 Popular Post Posted May 27, 2015 I guess i'm not understanding where this idea (that strict obedience is a bad thing) comes from. The scriptures are full of verses teaching obedience over everything else. 6
SeekingUnderstanding Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 (edited) I guess i'm not understanding where this idea (that strict obedience is a bad thing) comes from. The scriptures are full of verses teaching obedience over everything else.The problem (IMHO) comes when strict obedience (which is unobtainable) is linked with success in the mission field. When an Elder or Sister who has anxiety problems anyway heres messages like this, it can cause further depression. Blaming lack of success on the fact that you stayed 5 minutes extra at a dinner appointment is unhealthy. In my experience, some of the worst missionaries were the best baptizers. As an extremely obedient unsuccessful missionary, I can honestly say I never saw any correlation between obedience and teaching success. Edited May 27, 2015 by SeekingUnderstanding 1
bluebell Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 The problem (IMHO) comes when strict obedience (which is unobtainable) is linked with success in the mission field. When an Elder or Sister who has anxiety problems anyway heres messages like this, it can cause further depression. Blaming lack of success on the fact that you stayed 5 minutes extra at a dinner appointment is unhealthy. In my experience, some of the worst missionaries were the best baptizers. As an extremely obedient unsuccessful missionary, I can honestly say I never saw any correlation between obedience and teaching success. I served a mission, and i'm unsure how strict obedience is unattainable. Maybe you could explain what you mean. I agree that we can't blame lack of success on disobedience. Did the mission president do that and i didn't catch it? 3
stemelbow Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 I served a mission, and i'm unsure how strict obedience is unattainable. Maybe you could explain what you mean. I agree that we can't blame lack of success on disobedience. Did the mission president do that and i didn't catch it? If its attainable on your mission then it's attainable always. Does anyone not sin? I think all sin. That's the problem with exact obedience. Any missionary who thinks he/she is perfectly obedient might be missing something. 1
SeekingUnderstanding Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 I served a mission, and i'm unsure how strict obedience is unattainable. Maybe you could explain what you mean. I agree that we can't blame lack of success on disobedience. Did the mission president do that and i didn't catch it? From the Mission President's message that was referenced in the OP link Do you want to know what we yet lack in order to truly live our Missionary Purpose and in doing so register over 100 people baptized in a month? Exact Obedience! Baptism seems to be a decision of agency on the part of those being taught. I think it is dangerous to teach that if you are exactly obedient you will baptize. It's like teaching if you pay your tithing faithfully you won't be poor. Or if you live the gospel, you won't have hardship in your life. As to why exact (not strict) obedience is impossible? You'll have to take that up with God. I don't have any good answers for us. I believe JS was quoted as saying " I do not want you to think that I’m very righteous, for I am not. There was one good man, and his name was Jesus." Exact obedience is certainly something to be strived for, but is unobtainable in this life. 3
SeekingUnderstanding Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 If its attainable on your mission then it's attainable always. Does anyone not sin? I think all sin. That's the problem with exact obedience. Any missionary who thinks he/she is perfectly obedient might be missing something.And when a mission president tells you the reason you aren't baptizing is because you are sinning too much, that can cause psychological problems for people prone to those types of things. 1
Storm Rider Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 In our mission field this sounds a little too much like the juxtaposition of, as missionaries would state, "stats, stats, stats; we are out for goals and not for souls". However, I think this is a knee-jerk response on my part. In reading the link I felt good about the statement of the missionary,"President, I now finally get it. You want us to be exactly obedient and love it. To have a testimony of it. To know and understand why we are obedient."If the focus is gaining an understanding of why one is obedient and then striving for holiness, righteousness, then I see no problems with this. However, to teach that you will only baptize IF you are exactly obedient, then there is a problem. Obedience has a lot to do with personal righteousness, but it is not the sole ingredient of "baptizing". Being baptized is the natural result of an individual who gains a testimony; it has nothing to do with a missionary's obedience. A missionary needs to learn to teach with the Spirit and bear witness to the truths of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. What an individual does upon hearing a testimony is a personal issue. Baptizing, per se, should not be the goal of the missionary; rather teaching with the Spirit and bearing testimony with the Spirit should be the goal. Although I see some good things in what the MP is doing, there seems to be a lot of areas for confusion and misunderstanding. Give us missionaries that follow the Spirit and God will convert the world. Give us missionaries that only focus on being obedient and the result is something else. 2
Popular Post bluebell Posted May 27, 2015 Popular Post Posted May 27, 2015 From the Mission President's message that was referenced in the OP link Baptism seems to be a decision of agency on the part of those being taught. I think it is dangerous to teach that if you are exactly obedient you will baptize. It's like teaching if you pay your tithing faithfully you won't be poor. Or if you live the gospel, you won't have hardship in your life. As to why exact (not strict) obedience is impossible? You'll have to take that up with God. I don't have any good answers for us. I believe JS was quoted as saying " I do not want you to think that I’m very righteous, for I am not. There was one good man, and his name was Jesus." Exact obedience is certainly something to be strived for, but is unobtainable in this life. Perfection is unattainable, but exact obedience to a set of mission rules is very much attainable. Especially in a specific set amount of time. No one can do everything perfectly forever, but pretty much all of us can be obedient to specific measurable rules for a week or a month. I don't think that God has anywhere declared that exact obedience to mission rules in order to achieve a goal is impossible. And I do understand why someone could interpret what the mission president said as meaning if you are perfectly obedient then you WILL baptize. I don't know how many missionary companionships that mission had but mine had more than 100. So, if my mission president set a goal for 100 baptisms for the month it would be a wonderful success, but would also mean that not every missionary set baptized that month. Many would not. I like the idea that when we are obedient God blesses us to move towards our goals as whole and that's what i hear from the mission president. A 100 baptisms would probably not mean that every set had a baptism but it would mean that the mission as a whole achieved something worthy, and that is a focus off of the individual or the companionship. 6
bluebell Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 If its attainable on your mission then it's attainable always. Does anyone not sin? I think all sin. That's the problem with exact obedience. Any missionary who thinks he/she is perfectly obedient might be missing something. I've never met a mission president who expected exact obedience for a whole 2 years. Whenever we had these kinds of goals in my mission it was for a specific amount of time-normally a month. Maybe this mission president expects his missionaries to never ever sin and that's what he's asking, but since that would be a very very extreme and unreasonable request, I guess i don't see a valid reason to interpret his words in that way. 1
bluebell Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 And when a mission president tells you the reason you aren't baptizing is because you are sinning too much, that can cause psychological problems for people prone to those types of things. I agree. Hopefully this mission president isn't doing that (unless he knows specifically of a need for more obedience in a certain missionary's life).
Senator Posted May 27, 2015 Author Posted May 27, 2015 I like the idea that when we are obedient God blesses us to move towards our goals as whole and that's what i hear from the mission president. A 100 baptisms would probably not mean that every set had a baptism but it would mean that the mission as a whole achieved something worthy, and that is a focus off of the individual or the companionship. Numbers and quotas(goals) can become badges of righteousness in the mission field. I too served a mission, and I saw this first hand. 1
SeekingUnderstanding Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 (edited) Perfection is unattainable, but exact obedience to a set of mission rules is very much attainable. Especially in a specific set amount of time. No one can do everything perfectly forever, but pretty much all of us can be obedient to specific measurable rules for a week or a month. I don't think that God has anywhere declared that exact obedience to mission rules in order to achieve a goal is impossible. And I do understand why someone could interpret what the mission president said as meaning if you are perfectly obedient then you WILL baptize. I don't know how many missionary companionships that mission had but mine had more than 100. So, if my mission president set a goal for 100 baptisms for the month it would be a wonderful success, but would also mean that not every missionary set baptized that month. Many would not. I like the idea that when we are obedient God blesses us to move towards our goals as whole and that's what i hear from the mission president. A 100 baptisms would probably not mean that every set had a baptism but it would mean that the mission as a whole achieved something worthy, and that is a focus off of the individual or the companionship. Exact obedience has been a theme for a long time in the mission. From last November: It has been revealed to me that there are two reasons we are struggling with poor results right now:1. Lack of Exact Obedience which leads to a lack of worthiness, commitment, and focus! I fear many are currently serving in a manner they will regret. 2. Lack of Desire which leads to complacency, laziness, and indifference! This, at the end of the day, is a result of a lack of conversion to our Missionary Purpose. What a demoralizing message for those missionaries. Baptisms are down all over the church on a baptism per mission basis (routinely over 1000 in the early 90's to less than 700 in 2013). To blame this on lack of missionary committment is pretty miserable. The mission isn't successful because the missionary's don't want it and aren't obedient enough? Thinking of my sons getting messages like this makes my blood boil. I will also note that the mission president doesn't decribe exact obedience as obedience to mission rules, but as a way of life for all time (including all commandments). If you think this is possible, I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Edited May 27, 2015 by SeekingUnderstanding 2
Gray Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 (edited) I guess i'm not understanding where this idea (that strict obedience is a bad thing) comes from. The scriptures are full of verses teaching obedience over everything else. The way obedience is approached on missions seems to be a manifestation of religious OCD rather than anything recognizably spiritual Edited May 27, 2015 by Gray 1
stemelbow Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 I've never met a mission president who expected exact obedience for a whole 2 years. Whenever we had these kinds of goals in my mission it was for a specific amount of time-normally a month. Maybe this mission president expects his missionaries to never ever sin and that's what he's asking, but since that would be a very very extreme and unreasonable request, I guess i don't see a valid reason to interpret his words in that way. I was answering why strict obedience is unattainable. It seemed you had said it is attainable. i'm not as sure that preaching obedience in this way is helpful. It makes life discouraging, neverending and difficult. 2
BookofMormonLuvr Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 What I observed, and I think is the risk, is that this unyielding obedience to arbitrary rules and regulations laid out by each mission president can create young missionaries that are rather boorish and they become ineffective witnesses because their aloofness and disdain for error becomes evident to everyone around them, including investigators. 2
Senator Posted May 27, 2015 Author Posted May 27, 2015 I was answering why strict obedience is unattainable. It seemed you had said it is attainable.i'm not as sure that preaching obedience in this way is helpful. It makes life discouraging, neverending and difficult. I agree. Let me say that I'm am not here to argue on some anti-obedience platform. I am here to question the forms, motivations and means by which we teach and expect obedience. To that end I find both addresses by Elder Uchdorf to be quite informative in this regard. https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/04/on-being-genuine?lang=eng https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2015/04/the-gift-of-grace?lang=eng 2
bluebell Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 I was answering why strict obedience is unattainable. It seemed you had said it is attainable.i'm not as sure that preaching obedience in this way is helpful. It makes life discouraging, neverending and difficult. Yes, i was saying under what circumstances it is attainable and under those circumstances such a preaching is not discouraging, never-ending or difficult (to the extent that the difficulty is harmful-life is difficult regardless of one's level of trying to be obedient).
bluebell Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 Exact obedience has been a theme for a long time in the mission. From last November: What a demoralizing message for those missionaries. Baptisms are down all over the church on a baptism per mission basis (routinely over 1000 in the early 90's to less than 700 in 2013). To blame this on lack of missionary committment is pretty miserable. The mission isn't successful because the missionary's don't want it and aren't obedient enough? Thinking of my sons getting messages like this makes my blood boil. I will also note that the mission president doesn't decribe exact obedience as obedience to mission rules, but as a way of life for all time (including all commandments). If you think this is possible, I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Not being there in the mission, i'm not prepared to declare that such a message is demoralizing for those missionaries or not. Certainly the president has provided evidence that it's not demoralizing for some of them. I have no idea how the rest of them feel.
bluebell Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 Numbers and quotas(goals) can become badges of righteousness in the mission field. I too served a mission, and I saw this first hand. They certainly can. I think just about every good thing can be made into something bad under the right kind of circumstances and with the right personalities involved. 2
stemelbow Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 Yes, i was saying under what circumstances it is attainable and under those circumstances such a preaching is not discouraging, never-ending or difficult (to the extent that the difficulty is harmful-life is difficult regardless of one's level of trying to be obedient). Suer life is difficult. Adding to the difficulty, particularly when it's messing with people's perspectives unnecessarily, is just cruel, though.
Senator Posted May 27, 2015 Author Posted May 27, 2015 "Does God wait until we’ve expended every effort before He will intervene in our lives with His saving grace?" -E. Uchdorf 1
bluebell Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 Suer life is difficult. Adding to the difficulty, particularly when it's messing with people's perspectives unnecessarily, is just cruel, though. It can be, no doubt. But again, i have to return to the scriptures, where i cannot find any support for the idea that a focus on obedience is cruel.
stemelbow Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 It can be, no doubt. But again, i have to return to the scriptures, where i cannot find any support for the idea that a focus on obedience is cruel. I don't see it either. I also don't claim forgetting about obedience is a good thing.
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