BookofMormonLuvr Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 Have/do any of you work in the corporate world? Show me a successful organization that doesn't have rules that members of those organizations are expected to adhere to. They have those rules because there is an expectation that adherence to them will bring greater success. No difference with a mission. Corporations restructure when things are going in a bad direction. Perhaps the LORD is in the process of restructuring?
ERayR Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 Corporations restructure when things are going in a bad direction. Perhaps the LORD is in the process of restructuring? Bless you too.
HappyJackWagon Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 Have/do any of you work in the corporate world? Show me a successful organization that doesn't have rules that members of those organizations are expected to adhere to. They have those rules because there is an expectation that adherence to them will bring greater success. No difference with a mission. Yes- and micromanagement as a style of leadership is a recipe for failure. When an organization or a leader devalues the creativity and autonomy of its supposedly trusted workers (like a missionary) by creating impossible goals or a list of arbitrary and stifling rules then the best will leave for a better work environment with more freedom where they can actualize their talents instead of always being dictated to. 3
hope_for_things Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 I did not serve in your mission, but sending missionaries home is not an indicator of being more or less Christlike. I personally was a strictly obedient missionary and did everything by the book. My eyes were opened when our second mission President came and the contrast in styles of leadership was stark. I see a lot of negatives with over emphasizing obedience in our culture. My first mission president certainly felt justified in his approach to strict obedience or go home, and he backed it up by sending a lot of people home. I’m sure he was trying his best, but my honest evaluation is that his approach was lacking the love and forgiveness in contrast to my second President. If you get sent home from your mission, it can be a life altering negative experience from those that I’ve seen and talked to. I don’t see extreme emphasis on strict obedience as Christlke, no I don’t. 1
HappyJackWagon Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 What a complete load of bull crap.Wow! I'm assuming you have some inside information that would cause you to react so negatively towards Hope's benign statement. Do you know any of the missionaries or situations for which you were sent home? I imagine you don't. It would seem like a coupole of questions may be in order to better understand the comment instead of jumping to such a rude conclusion. 4
HappyJackWagon Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 "BookofMormonLuvr, on 27 May 2015 - 2:30 PM, said:Equating every arbitrary rule by local leadership to a direct command from the LORD is a bit of a stretch. Ljvd- Perhaps, but that is not within your stewardship to determine." This is such a defeatest attitude. We absolutely have the stewardship of determining what is best for us as individuals. We don't abdicate our agency to any other person. We are free to choose for ourselves and not simply objects to be acted upon. 1
Gray Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 Have/do any of you work in the corporate world? Show me a successful organization that doesn't have rules that members of those organizations are expected to adhere to. They have those rules because there is an expectation that adherence to them will bring greater success. No difference with a mission. I do, and I've never encountered a corporate environment with anything resembling the rigid rules of missionary life. In fact, some of the most innovative/successful companies also have the least rigid rules. 3
cinepro Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 (edited) What a demoralizing message for those missionaries. Baptisms are down all over the church on a baptism per mission basis (routinely over 1000 in the early 90's to less than 700 in 2013). To blame this on lack of missionary committment is pretty miserable. The mission isn't successful because the missionary's don't want it and aren't obedient enough? Thinking of my sons getting messages like this makes my blood boil. I can see where your confusion is coming from. You're thinking of other missions "all over the Church", where sometimes they don't baptize. We're talking about the Fresno Mission, which is the other kind: What a wonderful blessing it is to be a Missionary in the California Fresno Mission where....WE BAPTIZE! So as long as your son is sent to the kind of mission where they BAPTIZE as a result of their exact obedience, everything should be fine. Edited May 27, 2015 by cinepro 2
Gray Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 No He didn't. He did however have a great deal of respect for legitimate rules (He was the author of the law of Moses after all, which had some aspects that had to be obey with exactness, especially when it came to sacrifice of animals and such). I completely agree that someone can take obedience with exactness too far and i don't think it's appropriate for all situations. But let's not pretend that Christ doesn't care if we don't obey Him or His leaders or that He has no respect for His leaders when they ask for obedience. Even in a leader's weakness, i still don't think that Christ is pleased to hear them spoken badly of. Even the Law of Moses, he was willing to stretch. Mission rules and general good moral principles are really two different topics. I agree that Jesus taught that people should follow good moral principles.
Gray Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 Yes- and micromanagement as a style of leadership is a recipe for failure. When an organization or a leader devalues the creativity and autonomy of its supposedly trusted workers (like a missionary) by creating impossible goals or a list of arbitrary and stifling rules then the best will leave for a better work environment with more freedom where they can actualize their talents instead of always being dictated to. Yes, micromanagement is a very poor leadership approach. 1
carbon dioxide Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 (edited) Nobody is going to be perfectly obedient all the time. Obedience is important but one should not stress about not being obedient all the time as they are setting themselves up for failure. Plus does anyone really believe the Lord going to punish a prospective convert simply because the missionaries the come their way are not perfectly obedient? One final comment. It really bothers me that people put baptism numbers as a measure of success for missionary work. They are to preach the gospel but the decision to be baptized is solely on the investigators and is out of the hands of the missionary. Why should we attach success or failure to the missionary in areas they have no control over? I think a missionary that effectively teaches the gospel to 100 people and gets one baptism is no less successful than one that teaches 100 people and gets 15 baptisms. The missionary takes people off the fence of neutrality puts the ball into the investigators court to make a play on the ball. The people can accept the message and receive the reward or reject the message and receive possible damnation. I believe the role of the missionary is to take them out of the neutral zone and make a choice. That is one of the reasons they we have been put on this earth. To make key decisions at the right time for good or for bad. When missionaries do that, they have succeeded. Edited May 27, 2015 by carbon dioxide 2
cinepro Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 (edited) Wow. There are a lot of interesting statements about "exact obedience" on that blog: Exact Obedience: All of you are endeavoring to be exactly obedient and many of you are taking it to a new level by reviewing the MHB, PMG and Resource Binder to ensure you are aware of all things you should be exactly obedient to in order to receive all of the blessings and miracles associated with Exact Obedience. Well done! Many of you have shared with me how much better you feel about the work, your areas, your companion, and yourselves as you make exact obedience the foundation, the bedrock of your service to the Lord. Exact Obedience brings Miracles!!! http://fresnomission.blogspot.com/2015/05/presidents-weekly-whats-in-style.html And the missionary way to achieve Exact Obedience passes through the halls of integrity and accountability. You must be willing to hold yourself accountable. Remember I have asked you to do so and you have committed you would. In my recent interview with each of you I asked the question if you were being exactly obedient. There are far too many of you that said you were when you are not. This is an issue of honesty and integrity. President James E. Faust suggested that integrity is the mother of many virtues. He noted that integrity can be defined “as a firm adherence to a code of moral values.” He also suggested that “integrity is the light that shines from a disciplined conscience. It is the strength of duty within us” (“Integrity, the Mother of Many Virtues,” Faust). It is difficult for a person to display virtuous traits if he or she lacks integrity. Without integrity, honesty is often forgotten. If integrity is absent, civility is impaired. If integrity is not important, spirituality is difficult to maintain. Do you want to know what we yet lack in order to truly live our Missionary Purpose and in doing so register over 100 people baptized in a month? Exact Obedience! And I'm not asking for a push for a while or a program for a season. I am asking you to make it the way you live your lives during your mission experience and for the rest of your lives. Desire and accountability will be key components to your success of offering and yielding Exact Obedience - will you do it with a willing and a glad heart or see it as "one more thing I have to do"? So, ask the question: "Lord, is it I" and then get to work on being Exactly Obedient - one of the great hallmarks of the California Fresno Mission. After all, Christ's example to us is one of Exact Obedience as motivated by love and isn't that our culture as well? http://fresnomission.blogspot.com/2015/04/presidents-weekly-obedience-what-we-yet.html(emphasis added) Edited May 27, 2015 by cinepro
ERayR Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 Yes- and micromanagement as a style of leadership is a recipe for failure. When an organization or a leader devalues the creativity and autonomy of its supposedly trusted workers (like a missionary) by creating impossible goals or a list of arbitrary and stifling rules then the best will leave for a better work environment with more freedom where they can actualize their talents instead of always being dictated to. I wasn't arguing the merits of management styles but to reply to your assertion on micromanagement: I have seen it work quite well in some circumstances. With your labor force made up of "kids", many of which are still prone to kid ideas and habits, it makes sense to use a micromanagement style. At least at first, then you can loosen up on those who prove themselves. Example: We have a road in our area that must be driven at 30 mph or less because it is a series of little hills that cause your car to jump if driven over any faster. A few years ago we had a pair of elders that took their car and tore the under carriage out by speeding down that road. That didn't seem to deter them much because very shortly after getting their car back after extensive repairs they did it again.
HappyJackWagon Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 Wow. There are a lot of interesting statements about "exact obedience" on that blog:It sounds more like a cultish indoctrination effort than a desire to bring the lost to Christ. 1
ERayR Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 It sounds more like a cultish indoctrination effort than a desire to bring the lost to Christ. Yaaaaaa Biblical principles sometimes sound that way.
HappyJackWagon Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 I wasn't arguing the merits of management styles but to reply to your assertion on micromanagement: I have seen it work quite well in some circumstances. With your labor force made up of "kids", many of which are still prone to kid ideas and habits, it makes sense to use a micromanagement style. At least at first, then you can loosen up on those who prove themselves. Example: We have a road in our area that must be driven at 30 mph or less because it is a series of little hills that cause your car to jump if driven over any faster. A few years ago we had a pair of elders that took their car and tore the under carriage out by speeding down that road. That didn't seem to deter them much because very shortly after getting their car back after extensive repairs they did it again.I understand your point but I can't bring myself to agree with a philosophy of micromanagement, even for young missionaries. We are trusting these volunteers who are paying their own way to serve with the task of representing Christ for the Church, to teach the gospel and save souls, yet we are going to dictate how they must sit while they view their iPad, or have gps monitoring systems in their cars that report speeds and allows the monitor to speak over an intercom in the car to the missionaries at any time.
Senator Posted May 27, 2015 Author Posted May 27, 2015 "We are blessed to be in one of those very unique missions where baptisms are a definitive barometer of missionaries living their purpose. Most importantly, they (baptisms) are a barometer of missionaries' conversion to the gospel of Jesus Christ. In many missions this may not be the case but you have been blessed to be in the California Fresno Mission where living your purpose, baptizing, and becoming converted to the gospel of Jesus Christ are inextricably connected. What a wonderful blessing it is to be a Missionary in the California Fresno Mission where....WE BAPTIZE!" Oh boy!
HappyJackWagon Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 Yaaaaaa Biblical principles sometimes sound that way.That's the point. A lot of these extra rules are not biblical principles. They're just rules. I'd much prefer that the missionaries be taught principles and allowed to apply them appropriately to their needs. 2
Duncan Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 I have some personal experience with this very thing that has always been at the fore front of my mission experiences that I wish was not. I served in WV in 97-99. In one area I was was a very rural area. We had a care and bike racks. My comp and myself decided that to be more effective we would take our bikes with us on the care and tract the hollows (pronounced "holler") with our bikes, so we could talk to more people than just walking. I think we had something like 650 contacts for the week about every week. Which was really high for a rural area. The AP's thought we were lying about our numbers because we did not have the baptisms or that many number of higher taught discussions. And they thought we were not being obedient because of it. The AP's talk at zone conference was all about being obedient and using the BoM effective to baptize. One of his quotes was "I promise you that as you use the BoM effectively you will baptize 4 times the amount. " My comp and I laughed as we noted that any number times 0 is still 0. But we were really put off because what more could we do? We were obeying all the rules and packing our lunches to staying out to tract more and not drive back home for lunch. It would take 30 mins just to get home and another 30 mins to get back to the area we were tracing. I had never worked so physically hard as I did then even to this day. My next area was my last. I happened to get a comp that was not so obedient and was way more laid back than I. We were baptizing left and right. I was really stumped for a long time on what the issue was. My issue is that I was so wrapped up in the letters of the law that I was not looking very approachable. Obedience does have it's place in missionary work. I think the more important goal is for that of the people that you are serving. And believe it or not you can still do that even if you don't wake up at 6:30 every morning. I am not saying break mission rules. Just that in hind sight a lot of that stuff is just fluff and I should have had different goals. I knew a guy who served there then, Elder Filhart
ERayR Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 I understand your point but I can't bring myself to agree with a philosophy of micromanagement, even for young missionaries. We are trusting these volunteers who are paying their own way to serve with the task of representing Christ for the Church, to teach the gospel and save souls, yet we are going to dictate how they must sit while they view their iPad, or have gps monitoring systems in their cars that report speeds and allows the monitor to speak over an intercom in the car to the missionaries at any time. Normally I would agree with you about micromanagement but in this case I think some of it is justified.
Popular Post Duncan Posted May 27, 2015 Popular Post Posted May 27, 2015 I too served in a mission like this and in California and it got out of hand for about 3 years. I don't like the idea of tying obedience to baptism, I like the ideas of obedience and baptism but there is just so much involved for someone to get baptized and whether or not your shirt is ironed daily or your read your scriptures, as if God has checklist just waiting for you to do all these things and then he'll somehow make it so you baptize someone 6
halconero Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 This is wrong on so many levels......obviously it's the Phoenix Arizona Mission which leads the way, not California Fresno. 3
ERayR Posted May 27, 2015 Posted May 27, 2015 That's the point. A lot of these extra rules are not biblical principles. They're just rules. I'd much prefer that the missionaries be taught principles and allowed to apply them appropriately to their needs. Another thought; Basic military training is very successful application of micromanagement. First get them going the right direction then move on to other things.
Popular Post BookofMormonLuvr Posted May 27, 2015 Popular Post Posted May 27, 2015 "We are blessed to be in one of those very unique missions where baptisms are a definitive barometer of missionaries living their purpose. Most importantly, they (baptisms) are a barometer of missionaries' conversion to the gospel of Jesus Christ. In many missions this may not be the case but you have been blessed to be in the California Fresno Mission where living your purpose, baptizing, and becoming converted to the gospel of Jesus Christ are inextricably connected. What a wonderful blessing it is to be a Missionary in the California Fresno Mission where....WE BAPTIZE!" Oh boy!That is a stunningly horrible statement. 9
Senator Posted May 27, 2015 Author Posted May 27, 2015 Wow. There are a lot of interesting statements about "exact obedience" on that blog: "And the missionary way to achieve Exact Obedience passes through the halls of integrity and accountability. You must be willing to hold yourself accountable. Remember I have asked you to do so and you have committed you would. In my recent interview with each of you I asked the question if you were being exactly obedient. There are far too many of you that said you were when you are not. This is an issue of honesty and integrity. President James E. Faust suggested that integrity is the mother of many virtues. He noted that integrity can be defined “as a firm adherence to a code of moral values.” He also suggested that “integrity is the light that shines from a disciplined conscience. It is the strength of duty within us” (“Integrity, the Mother of Many Virtues,” Faust). It is difficult for a person to display virtuous traits if he or she lacks integrity. Without integrity, honesty is often forgotten. If integrity is absent, civility is impaired. If integrity is not important, spirituality is difficult to maintain. Do you want to know what we yet lack in order to truly live our Missionary Purpose and in doing so register over 100 people baptized in a month? Exact Obedience! And I'm not asking for a push for a while or a program for a season. I am asking you to make it the way you live your lives during your mission experience and for the rest of your lives. Desire and accountability will be key components to your success of offering and yielding Exact Obedience - will you do it with a willing and a glad heart or see it as "one more thing I have to do"? So, ask the question: "Lord, is it I" and then get to work on being Exactly Obedient - one of the great hallmarks of the California Fresno Mission. After all, Christ's example to us is one of Exact Obedience as motivated by love and isn't that our culture as well?" You know when I first read this blog I had such a flood of anxiety rush over me. Or should I say, a return of anxiety. All I can say is that I have offered up mighty silent prayer that my son will not have this kind of mission experience.I know his personality and temperment. I greatly fear he would not do well in such an environment. 2
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