Where Did Earth's Moon Come From? (According To Mormons)

[Uncle Dale]

I've been browsing through H. L. Andrus' book, entitled

God, Man and the Universe, and thus have a question.

 

I'll first of all quote part of a short summary of one of his

chapters, as given by an LDS commentator:

 

>The earth was created near Kolob, which is the governing
>planet and which has a day equal in length to one thousand

>of our years. The length of each of the seven creation periods

>was therefore one thousand years, as the earth was then

>governed by the time reckoning of Kolob....

>

>it actually took seven thousand years to do the creative work.

>Since it has now been about six thousand years since life was

>placed upon the earth, it was thirteen thousand years ago that

>the creation was begun.

>
>While the earth was associated with Kolob it did not get its light

>from the sun but from God. Later it was "hurled into space" and

>took its place in the plantetary system and the sun became its

>light. It also changed its reckoning of time to that of the present.

 

Assuming that the above summary is an accurate communication

of Dr. Andrus' teachings (and that Andrus himself has accurately

presented official LDS doctrine) -- what else can be stated, regarding

the earth's entry into the solar system?

 

Is there any astronomical evidence for this strange sounding occurrence?

And -- if it is factual truth -- where did earth's moon (Luna) come from?

Was it "hurled" into Sol's planetary system, along with our planet. Or,

was it already in the solar system when the earth arrived?

 

The official lds.org star map is a little vague

 

 

If Luna was already here (in our planetary system) under what scenario

(compatible with accepted astrophysics), did it begin to orbit the earth?

And how long ago did that happen?

 

UD

Edited March 10, 2015 by Uncle Dale

[JLHPROF]

Where did the moon come from?

 

Moses 2:16

And I, God, made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night, and the greater light was the sun, and the lesser light was the moon; and the stars also were made even according to my word.

 

Good enough for me.

[Uncle Dale]

...

 

Good enough for me.

 

Probably so.

 

And good enough for me, as well, in my younger days.

 

However, if I now shelled out the cash to obtain credit and a

grade in BYU's Astronomy 101 course, I might be forgiven

for feeling that such an answer was something a little less

detailed than what I'd paid my money for.

 

UD

[Freedom]

As you well know, there is no doctrine on how the earth or any other planet came to be. 

[Uncle Dale]

As you well know, there is no doctrine on how the earth or any other planet came to be. 

 

 

Does that mean that Dr. Andrus' teachings are just his personal opinion?

His books appear to be extremely well documented, with hundreds of

references to statements made by General Authorities, the Standard Works,

Church publications, etc.

 

If there is no official doctrine, then can I at least find out which authorities

LDS seminary, institute and university instructors cite? (So I can begin to

search for some answers regarding the earth "hurled into space," etc.?

 

UD

[UtahTexan]

Probably so.

 

And good enough for me, as well, in my younger days.

 

However, if I now shelled out the cash to obtain credit and a

grade in BYU's Astronomy 101 course, I might be forgiven

for feeling that such an answer was something a little less

detailed than what I'd paid my money for.

 

UD

 

Then maybe take it up with the BYU Astronomy department?  Or did you have a different reason for bringing it here?

[Freedom]

Does that mean that Dr. Andrus' teachings are just his personal opinion?

His books appear to be extremely well documented, with hundreds of

references to statements made by General Authorities, the Standard Works,

Church publications, etc.

 

If there is no official doctrine, then can I at least find out which authorities

LDS seminary, institute and university instructors cite? (So I can begin to

search for some answers regarding the earth "hurled into space," etc.?

 

UD

You can drop your facetiousness. You already well know that our doctrine is found in the scriptures and in the official proclamations. Nowhere in our scriptures does it tell us where the moon comes from. 

[mfbukowski]

Does that mean that Dr. Andrus' teachings are just his personal opinion?

His books appear to be extremely well documented, with hundreds of

references to statements made by General Authorities, the Standard Works,

Church publications, etc.

 

If there is no official doctrine, then can I at least find out which authorities

LDS seminary, institute and university instructors cite? (So I can begin to

search for some answers regarding the earth "hurled into space," etc.?

 

UD

Keep constructing straw men if it makes you happy, but your posts just get more and more cartoonish.

[sunstoned]

I've been browsing through H. L. Andrus' book, entitled

God, Man and the Universe, and thus have a question.

 

I'll first of all quote part of a short summary of one of his

chapters, as given by an LDS commentator:

 

>The earth was created near Kolob, which is the governing

>planet and which has a day equal in length to one thousand

>of our years. The length of each of the seven creation periods

>was therefore one thousand years, as the earth was then

>governed by the time reckoning of Kolob....

>

>it actually took seven thousand years to do the creative work.

>Since it has now been about six thousand years since life was

>placed upon the earth, it was thirteen thousand years ago that

>the creation was begun.

>

>While the earth was associated with Kolob it did not get its light

>from the sun but from God. Later it was "hurled into space" and

>took its place in the plantetary system and the sun became its

>light. It also changed its reckoning of time to that of the present.

 

Dr. Andrus sure had a vivid imagination! 

[Uncle Dale]

Then maybe take it up with the BYU Astronomy department?  Or did you have a different reason for bringing it here?

 

 

Because there are literally hundreds of participants here 

who know Mormon doctrine tens times better than I do --

and who probably have read all of Dr. Andrus' books

several times over.

 

I could go to an anti-Mormon forum, and ask the same question,

but folks there would just refer me to Sandra Tanner or Ed Decker

(who know even less than I do).

 

Certainly these topics must come up among LDS college students.

At least they did when I attended Weber State, and sat in on long

discussions regarding the age of the earth and related matters.

 

But, if there is a better source for me to consult, I suppose just

directing me to a few authoritative books and articles will fully 

satisfy my curiosity.

 

UD

[Uncle Dale]

Keep constructing straw men if it makes you happy, but your posts just get more and more cartoonish.

 

Well, the fellow is still alive, it seems. Came from the same Rexburg

area as did my father's family, and evidently joined the army at about

the same time, and went overseas with those other Madison and Fremont

county volunteers.

 

For all I can tell, my father or uncles and aunts probably knew the

guy, just like they had a passing acquaintance with Farnsworth.

 

So, if nobody cares to provide any other suggestions, I might try

writing to the author himself.

 

UD

Edited March 11, 2015 by Uncle Dale

[Freedom]

 

But, if there is a better source for me to consult, I suppose just

directing me to a few authoritative books and articles will fully 

satisfy my curiosity.

 

UD

You know full well what source to consult. Please stop your tired and juvenile efforts of mocking our religion. 

[BCSpace]

Because there are literally hundreds of participants here 

who know Mormon doctrine tens times better than I do --

and who probably have read all of Dr. Andrus' books

several times over.

 

What do you see published directly by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and of latest date?  That would be the doctrine as defined by the Church.  Here is one:

 

Abraham 5:13. Time in the Garden of Eden Was according to the Time of Kolob

President Joseph Fielding Smith stated: “When this earth was created, it was not according to our present time, but it was created according to Kolob’s time, for the Lord has said it was created on celestial time which is Kolob’s time. Then he revealed to Abraham that Adam was subject to Kolob’s time before his transgression” (Doctrines of Salvation, 1:79).

This helps us understand the Lord’s warning to Adam and Eve regarding their partaking of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil: “In the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die” (Moses 3:17; see also Genesis 2:17; Abraham 5:13). After Adam and Eve partook of the fruit, they did not die physically within a twenty-four hour period, as we now measure a day. Adam did, however, die within the period of one Kolob day (one thousand earth years, as measured after the Fall; see Abraham 3:4; explanation for Abraham facsimile 2, figure 1; see also 2 Peter 3: 8. Moses 6:12 indicates that Adam died 930 years after the Fall.

 

https://www.lds.org/manual/the-pearl-of-great-price-student-manual/the-book-of-abraham?lang=eng

 

 

 

[JLHPROF]

“In the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die” (Moses 3:17; see also Genesis 2:17; Abraham 5:13). After Adam and Eve partook of the fruit, they did not die physically within a twenty-four hour period, as we now measure a day. Adam did, however, die within the period of one Kolob day (one thousand earth years, as measured after the Fall;

Which is why the patriarchs like Adam and Methuselah got up into the 900's but nobody topped 1000.

 

And when the earth enters the Millennial period and ages begin to lengthen again we get D&C 101:30 -

"30 In that day an infant shall not die until he is old; and his life shall be as the age of a tree;"

 

In that day (the Millennial 1000 years) anyone born will not die until he is old/age of a tree.  Just like the early patriarchs.  Imagine - we die at 75-80 but our grandkids could live to be in the 900's like Methuselah.

[guerreiro9]

Certainly these topics must come up among LDS college students.

At least they did when I attended Weber State, and sat in on long

discussions regarding the age of the earth and related matters.

UD

I can say in all honesty that having attended Weber State for a time myself, and having a degree in physics, and having worked on NASA Lunar missions, and currently teaching a graduate course on orbital mechanics your question has never entered my mind.

But then again I believe your educational background is in theology where they consider these all important matters. I was too concerned with landing on the thing correctly to worry about where it came from.

-guerreiro9

[Uncle Dale]

I can say in all honesty that having attended Weber State for a time myself, and having a degree in physics, and having worked on NASA Lunar missions, and currently teaching a graduate course on orbital mechanics your question has never entered my mind.

But then again I believe your educational background is in theology where they consider these all important matters. I was too concerned with landing on the thing correctly to worry about where it came from.

-guerreiro9

 

 

No -- my early undergraduate studies were in physical geography,

cartography, and geomorphology. I related elsewhere in this forum

that two of my early teachers were Geology profs Dr. Moyle and

Dr. Buss -- both highly educated men and both observant LDS.

 

Since the lectures they gave (in a state college funded with public

tax revenues) often overlapped into the students' acquaintance

with the Standard Works, it was not at all unusual to witness elements

of Mormon doctrine discussed right there in the classrooms, and

(more typically) as we students were studying to take exams and

write term papers.

 

But that was long ago. A few years after that I was invited to attend

religion classes at the nearby LDS Institute (about a five minute walk

from the Geology classrooms) and I availed myself of that opportunity

for two or three semesters. The age of the earth, its origins, and its

relationship to other planets never came up for discussion, either in

the classrooms or after hours.

 

Somehow I missed being taught the fact (?) that the earth did not

develop along with the other planets of the solar system, and was

transported to its present location (in relation to the other objects)

about 6000 years ago.

 

Probably I was never taught this lesson, because the church I attended

did not make use of the Book of Abraham; nor did its teachers spend

much time teaching history and theology from the Nauvoo period (when

that book was first published).

 

It may sound like a child's question, but I'd like to know whether Mormons

conclude that the earth developed separately from the moon and sun. It

doesn't seem like such a silly question to me -- but, perhaps, to many of

the participants here, it was resolved back in Primary.

 

???

 

UD

Edited March 11, 2015 by Uncle Dale

[Uncle Dale]

 

...our grandkids could live to be in the 900's like Methuselah.

 

Seems that some bigwig at Google (my niece works for a

neighboring division there) has predicted that in coming

generations people will live to be 500. Perhaps so.

 

But, I'm more interested in pondering the passage of time

and its effects upon celestial bodies (not those of resurrected

beings, but the astronomical objects we see with telescopes).

 

Looking at our moon through binoculars, the side facing us

looks incredibly scarred and eroded -- like a geologic record

of millions of years worth of meteor bombardment, molten 

rock flows, and perhaps even near-destructive cataclysms.

 

They tell me that it is very slowly moving away from us (has

been for many millions of years) and eventually will appear

to be so small in our sky that eclipses in those latter, latter days 

will no longer block out the sun entirely.

 

Earthlings would have to live far longer than 500 years, if our

great grandkids are to see that astronomical phenomenon --

but, who knows? Maybe 500 years will just be the lower limit.

 

UD

Edited March 11, 2015 by Uncle Dale

[mfbukowski]

Here is the link you are looking for:

http://www.geology.byu.edu/

 

My son is finishing a degree in physics at a branch of BYU and amazingly enough he has never read anything by Andrus.

Edited March 11, 2015 by mfbukowski

[Uncle Dale]

Here is the link you are looking for:

http://www.geology.byu.edu/

 

My son is finishing a degree in physics at a branch of BYU and amazingly enough he has never read anything by Andrus.

 

 

The web-site tells me a little -- actually, it sort of backs up

my interest in things cosmic and astronomical (remember, 

from my house I can see the world's greatest telescopes,

better than Alaskan governors can see Siberia).

 

Here's the part I liked:

 

>[it has] become increasingly important for understanding not

>only the earth but the moon, other planets and their moons...

 

So far, so good.

 

>Understanding the dynamic processes of the earth and other

>planets is relevant...

 

Even better. "Relevant" to multiple factors in our lives -- no doubt.

 

However, if I raise my hand in their classrooms, or sitting in

the faculty lounge, or student union -- and ask whether the

earth developed in the same galactic neighborhood as did

Mars, Mercury, Venus and other Greek-named worlds, will

I receive an answer acceptable to an academic accrediting 

board, or one more useful for family home evening activities?

 

UD

Edited March 11, 2015 by Uncle Dale

[mfbukowski]

The web-site tells me a little -- actually, it sort of backs up

my interest in things cosmic and astronomical (remember, 

from my house I can see the world's greatest telescopes,

better than Alaskan governors can see Siberia).

 

Here's the part I liked:

 

>[it has] become increasingly important for understanding not

>only the earth but the moon, other planets and their moons...

 

So far, so good.

 

>Understanding the dynamic processes of the earth and other

>planets is relevant...

 

Even better. "Relevant" to multiple factors in our lives -- no doubt.

 

However, if I raise my hand in their classrooms, or sitting in

the faculty lounge, or student union -- and ask whether the

earth developed in the same galactic neighborhood as did

Mars, Mercury, Venus and other Greek-named worlds, will

I receive an answer acceptable to an academic accrediting 

board, or one more useful for family home evening activities?

 

UD

The problem is that you think they would be different, and not both simultaneously.

[Uncle Dale]

The problem is that you think they would be different, and not both simultaneously.

 

Yes... True.

 

And I've also heard Graceland-educated PhDs go to great lengths

to explain how the Garden of Eden is (was?) located practically in

their Kansas City back yards; while also mentioning Neanderthals

in practically the very next breath.

 

All of which sits nicely inside of their compartmentalized minds. The

attempted "fit" inside of my own skull is too tight for comfort.

 

UD

(The best part was hearing one of these Adamic Gardeners pontificate

on how only fools could believe that Enoch's city is going to descend

down from the sky, to take its place beside the CoC Temple)

[strappinglad]

I grew up and spent most of my life with Pluto as a planet. Now it isn't( probably) . Some scientists are saying that our moon is not really a moon but a planet, something about the way it orbits the sun. Then there are other moons around the earth. One thing I have learned about cosmology, if one waits a while, the rules and definitions and suppositions will change, occasionally 180 degrees. As of now it is assumed that the earth and the moon were formed at about the same time out of the materials of a larger globe which underwent the cosmologists favorite scenario, an impact. None of the scientific stories about the formation of the earth and moon have been verified by observation of other systems. Until they are, Andrus' postulations are no more fanciful than any other.

[Uncle Dale]

 

...As of now it is assumed that the earth and the moon were formed at about the same time out of the materials of a larger globe which underwent the cosmologists favorite scenario, an impact....

 

Maybe so.

 

Just looking at these planets, moons and assorted "worlds,"

is enough to make me a firm believer in impacts, both small

and large.

 

And we have some moon rocks to study, and remote sensing

gadgets to tell us all sorts of things about our big moon (and

maybe a little about the tiny moonlets which don't make it into

the family album very often).

 

Thinking that our moon was created (or organized, or whatever)

simply to light up the nighttime sky, a little here and there, may 

leave a comforting, familiar scriptural glow in our musings; but

Intelligent Design proponents have a much better, more basic 

argument that they could make, if only they would. And that is

the probable fact that stable life on this sphere needs the lunar

influences, just as it needs the planet's magnetic field and layers

of atmosphere, in order to go on surviving.

 

But, if the earth really was formed out of pre-existing materials, in

an orbit near Kolob, and flung Solward by supernatural hands,

that disquieting notion also has a marginal overlap with known

cosmology -- there are occasional "orphan" planets out there in

interstellar space, which orbit no single star.

 

If the opening scenes of the Flash Gordon movies can be believed,

Ming's Mongo may be even now hurtling through the void at us.

 

 

UD

(Maybe the Kolob doctrine isn't so idiotic after all)

Edited March 11, 2015 by Uncle Dale

[thesometimesaint]

What do you get when you combine a pack of M&M's, a bowl of chicken noodle soup, and a electric eel?  A Kangaroo because it is a marsupial.

[mnn727]

 

 

Assuming that the above summary is an accurate communication

of Dr. Andrus' teachings (and that Andrus himself has accurately

presented official LDS doctrine) 

 

Never assume. 

 

This is just another problem with taking Genesis as 100% true and historical, and Church members twisting themselves into loops trying to square everything up.

Edited March 11, 2015 by mnn727