Where Did Earth's Moon Come From? (According To Mormons)

[Robert F. Smith]

It would be helpful, then, if that statement were

printed on the dust wrappers of his many books.

And if they were moved out of the history and

religion sections at GospelLink.

UD

Then again, maybe they have been moved,

or discontinued entirely - I'll have to look

It was done quietly, as is usually the case when someone goes around the bend.

[Robert F. Smith]

Hmmmmm...

Browsing the web, I cannot find a single instance

where a Living Prophet or a General Authority

has ever spoken one word against him, or any

warning not to take his teachings seriously.

Then again, he quotes those sorts of leaders

just about for every paragraph published in his

books, so they might be inclined to go easy on

the poor old (very old) senior citizen member.

UD

He was not subjected to public humiliation, and there was no reason to do so.  This happened a long time ago.

[Uncle Dale]

Well it looks like bankruptcy time, but at least not moral bankruptcy-- I hope.

 

Mental bankruptcy sounds even more scarey.

 

Lunacy! -- Lunatic! -- Looney Tunes!

 

 

.

"How do you know I 'm mad?" said Alice.

 

"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."

 

UD

[mfbukowski]

Hmmmmm...

Browsing the web, I cannot find a single instance

where a Living Prophet or a General Authority

has ever spoken one word against him, or any

warning not to take his teachings seriously.

Then again, he quotes those sorts of leaders

just about for every paragraph published in his

books, so they might be inclined to go easy on

the poor old (very old) senior citizen member.

UD

Honestly I think they have better things to do with their time than name every book or author they might possibly disagree with.

 

They really DO believe in freedom of the press.

Edited March 12, 2015 by mfbukowski

[Uncle Dale]

 

...freedom of the press.

.

Without revealing your name, can you tell us if you are in some way

associated with a famous orange-covered paperback, sold by the

thousands via Deseret Books, the BYU Book Store, Amazon, etc.?

 

UD

(haven't read all of Oaks & Hill -- but it seems to have something to do with freedom

of the press, and its consequences, in Hancock Co., Illinois, spring of 1844)

Edited March 12, 2015 by Uncle Dale

[mfbukowski]

.

Without revealing your name, can you tell us if you are in some way

associated with a famous orange-covered paperback, sold by the

thousands via Deseret Books, the BYU Book Store, Amazon, etc.?

 

UD

(haven't read all of Oaks & Hill -- but it seems to have something to do with freedom

of the press, and its consequences, in Hancock Co., Illinois, spring of 1844)

I firmly deny actually being Dallin Oaks though I expect to be called to the apostleship in April.

 

They forgot to call me yet though- I haven't paid my phone bill due to that bankruptcy problem

[Uncle Dale]

.

freedom of the press, and its consequences...

 

.

Apostle George Q. Cannon was himself an editor of a major newspaper,

and so we might think that (even in the dark ages of 1868) such a man

would be standing up for freedom of expression in the public press.

 

But, when the army newspaper shut down and was soon afterward

replaced by a Gentile sheet, printed in Great Salt Lake City, the good

Apostle was more than a little perturbed..

 

 

 

Vol. I.                                 Salt Lake City, U. T., Wednesday, October 7, 1868.                          No. 128.

 

 

 ...[Apostle Cannon said] "...No greater evidence of our patience, forbearance, and law-abiding tendencies could be given than the fact that the author of these threats, falsehoods and slanders is not hung. He walks our streets unnoticed and unchallenged. In any other Territory he would be hung up to a telegraph pole by an outraged community. If the people will not sustain the author of these outrages on themselves, let them cease sustaining those who do sustain him, for the paper he publishes is subscribed for, fostered and sustained by individuals in this city who seek the support of this people..."

 

Note: In this issue there was a brief notice published, citing the discourse of Apostle George Q. Cannon, from the Fall LDS Conference, on Oct. 7th, as partly reported in the Deseret News: "Elder George Q. Cannon said this was a momentous period, and he felt deeply impressed with its importance. He was extremely desirous that the people should realize the full force of the course they had been pursuing. He reviewed the circumstances which had given power and influence to our enemies here in our midst, and referred to the events which occurred in Nauvoo immediately preceding the martyrdom of Joseph and Hyrum. The threat is made that we will be crushed and destroyed, and this threat is not made covertly, quietly, nor in a corner, but it is published in our principal city, and sent forth to the world, north, south, east and west, and with it slanders the most foul and abominable have been circulated. No greater evidence of our patience, forbearance, and law-abiding tendencies could be given than the fact that the author of these threats, falsehoods and slanders is not hung. He walks our streets unnoticed and unchallenged. In any other Territory he would be hung up to a telegraph pole by an outraged community. If the people will not sustain the author of these outrages on themselves, let them cease sustaining those who do sustain him, for the paper he publishes is subscribed for, fostered and sustained by individuals in this city who seek the support of this people." (Deseret Evening News, Oct. 7, 1868, reprinted in weekly Deseret News, of Oct. 14th, page 288. See also the semi-weekly Deseret Evening News of Nov. 3, 1868, page 2, in which Elder Cannon's Oct 7th Conference talk -- perhaps slightly expurgated -- was printed in full.)

 

UD

Edited March 12, 2015 by Uncle Dale

[Ahab]

Kolob Theorem right?

Yes, or in tune with it. Many good thoughts in it.

[saemo]

I consider the outside region of galaxies to be the telestial regions, the next region inward as the terrestrial, and the center region as the celestial region. Look at a picture of any known galaxy and you'll see 3 different regions that appear red, white and blue. The telestial region of our galaxy is the region furthest from our Father, not counting outer darkness which is the area outside any galaxy, and the celestial region is where his home is.

Just FYI, for what it's worth.

Are you saying you believe that a God lives in the center of every galaxy?

[pogi]

Registered Trademark, U.S. Pat. Of. No. 666

Licensing fees for "Oh well" are 1 cent per use,

minimum contract, one billion uses.

 

 

 

.

Oh Well Industries and Worldwide Conglomerate, Inc., Ltd, Etc.

Pay at once -- this will be your only warning.

 

Your fired!

 

Oh crap, that one is taken too...oh well.  Dang it!

Edited March 12, 2015 by pogi

[mfbukowski]

Are you saying you believe that a God lives in the center of every galaxy?

I am not speaking for him because I don't know what he believes.  Mormon doctrine is vague enough on that that there are some who might indeed believe that, and others who do not.

 

I personally do not speculate on such matters, to me God is the master of everything we can possibly know about.  If there are other "Gods" they are irrelevant to humanity and are beyond what we wormy little beings can possibly comprehend anyway so speculation or even discussion about the matter makes no sense.

 

For me, stories about Kolob are to be taken figuratively to show us our spiritual place in the universe, that God is near to us and that in principle he is indeed in a "physical place".  As a Catholic I could not understand how Christ's resurrected physical body could be "everywhere" and still be physical, and for me, this is a better answer than the idea that it is a "mystery".   It is still a mystery but the attempt to answer the question speaks volumes about what we believe about space and physicality

 

I take such stories about the way I take the story of Noah- as being for my spiritual welfare.  Could they "be true" in a conventional sense?  Of course they COULD BE but I have no need to believe that they "actually are" since it is unknowable either way.

 

What is important in Mormon doctrine is that God is our father and is infinitely above us in every respect to the point where he is pretty incomprehensible on one hand but on the other we know we can become like him after an eternity or two of doing our absolute best and following every prompting he gives us.

 

The rest might as well be Star Wars or some other fantasy.  There is no controlling what others believe

Edited March 12, 2015 by mfbukowski

[Ahab]

Are you saying you believe that a God lives in the center of every galaxy?

God is a word which refers to a particular kind of being, which is the kind of being our Father is, and which is also the kind of being we are, so with that understood, yes I am saying that kind of being lives in the center of every galaxy, and also in the terrestrial region of every galaxy, just as we do in this one, and also in the mid region of every galaxy. We're all over the place. Everywhere our kind of being is. And some of our kind have the ability and power to go from one region of a galaxy to another region in that galaxy or even to a whole other galaxy, not only moving our personal selves but other also able to move other kinds of beings and even whole planets and other planetary bodies from one place to another.

[Ahab]

...There is no controlling what others believe

There is no controlling what we or others will choose to not believe, either.

[mfbukowski]

There is no controlling what we or others will choose to not believe, either.

Very true.

 

And notice I was not even implying that I spoke for you.  I have no problem with your belief and indeed you might be right, and I concede that.  I just wanted to state that Mormons believe many things on these topics.   And indeed they do.

 

My only point is that we cannot know either way with our natural minds and must rely on the spirit to teach us.  I can perfectly well believe that you are "right" as much as that I am, or neither of us has it quite down

 

This is a very strange world and we don't know much now with our natural minds, but it will all be revealed in the long run.   You have criticized what you think my estimation of you is- but you don't know how I "really" see you.  I see you as a very bright guy who is kind of fixed in his way of seeing things and not particularly open to seeing things in new ways.

 

That doesn't mean for one minute that I think you are "wrong" or anything else.

 

Sometimes those with open minds end up with butterflies and bats in the belfry!

[Uncle Dale]

I am not speaking for him because I don't know what he believes.  Mormon doctrine is vague enough on that that there are some who might indeed believe that, and others who do not.

 

I personally do not speculate on such matters, to me God is the master of everything we can possibly know about.  If there are other "Gods" they are irrelevant to humanity

....

 

.

That sounds very strange, coming from a compassionate fellow

like yourself. But, correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Heavenly Father loves you as a child of his family. And His godly

Father also loves both you and Him, and Jehovah as well.

 

Why on earth would you say that your Heavenly Grandfather is

"irrelevant?" Is it your expectation that you will never encounter

Him, nor the other members of your ancestral eternal family?

 

UD

Come to think of it, you have two Heavenly Grandfathers, as

well as a Heavenly Mother -- who could not possibly be irrelevant.

Edited March 12, 2015 by Uncle Dale

[cinepro]

For me, stories about Kolob are to be taken figuratively to show us our spiritual place in the universe, that God is near to us and that in principle he is indeed in a "physical place".  As a Catholic I could not understand how Christ's resurrected physical body could be "everywhere" and still be physical, and for me, this is a better answer than the idea that it is a "mystery".   It is still a mystery but the attempt to answer the question speaks volumes about what we believe about space and physicality

 

I take such stories about the way I take the story of Noah- as being for my spiritual welfare.  Could they "be true" in a conventional sense?  Of course they COULD BE but I have no need to believe that they "actually are" since it is unknowable either way.

 

 

I have to admit I'm endlessly fascinated by such an approach, because it is totally the opposite of what is taught in Church about many things.  For example, this is a teaching of Brigham Young that was recently reiterated in the Ensign:

 

The book of Abraham makes another unique contribution to our understanding by explaining the physical location of the earth in the universe at the time this sphere was created, before the actions of Adam and Eve brought on the Fall. Note the references to time in the following verse:

 

“But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the time that thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die. Now I, Abraham, saw that it was after the Lord’s time, which was after the time of Kolob; for as yet the Gods had not appointed unto Adam his reckoning” (Abr. 5:13).

 

President Joseph Fielding Smith stated that in this verse the Lord “revealed to Abraham that Adam was subject to Kolob’s time before his transgression.”¹⁹ According to President Brigham Young, Abraham 5:13 [Abr. 5:13] also means that before the Fall of Adam, the earth was near the very throne of God. But when the Fall occurred, the earth literally fell or moved from the physical presence of God to its present position in our solar system. When all the effects of the Fall of Adam are finally overcome, the earth will literally move back into the presence of God. Here are President Young’s words:

 

“When the earth was framed and brought into existence and man was placed upon it, it was near the throne of our Father in heaven. … But when man fell, the earth fell into space, and took up its abode in this planetary system. … This is the glory the earth came from, and when it is glorified it will return again unto the presence of the Father, and it will dwell there, and these intelligent beings that I am looking at, if they live worthy of it, will dwell upon this earth.”²⁰

 

The power by which the effects of Adam’s Fall are overcome for all created things, including the earth, is the Atonement of Jesus Christ (see D&C 76:40–43; Moses 7:48–62).

 

The Book of Abraham: A Most Remarkable Book

 

So while I find your views eminently more reasonable, they seem off-topic in a discussion of what "Mormons" believe to the degree that we should take official Church teachings as being authoritative in that regard.

[mfbukowski]

.

That sounds very strange, coming from a compassionate fellow

like yourself. But, correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Heavenly Father loves you as a child of his family. And His godly

Father also loves both you and Him, and Jehovah as well.

 

Why on earth would you say that your Heavenly Grandfather is

"irrelevant?" Is it your expectation that you will never encounter

Him, nor the other members of your ancestral eternal family?

 

UD

Come to think of it, you have two Heavenly Grandfathers, as

well as a Heavenly Mother -- who could not possibly be irrelevant.

This is the problem- you don't know our doctrine.  You really don't.  For all your years of study of the history you do not know the doctrine.

 

There is no statement in canonized doctrine that God has a "father".   It makes sense that he does, it is believed pretty universally, but there are no statements in canonized doctrine saying that.  It is found only in King Follett Discourse which is not doctrinal.

 

And NO, assuming that God DOES have a father, that is irrelevant for my spirituality.  Indeed I hope to meet him someday.  You have been in the military, and as a private you take orders from your sergeant.  Yes you would love to meet the President of the United states.   You would like to have him come over for dinner.

 

That has nothing to do with who you take orders from.   I don't know where you get this stuff.

[Uncle Dale]

 

...I don't know where you get this stuff.

.

Starting with Eliza R. Snow.

 

>As early as 1839 the Prophet Joseph Smith taught the concept

>of an eternal mother, as reported in several accounts from that

>period. Out of his teaching came a hymn that Latter-day Saints

>learn, sing, quote, and cherish, "O My Father," by Eliza R. Snow.

>President Wilford Woodruff called it a revelation (Woodruff, p. 62)

 

UD

(But Eliza admittedly was not a General Authority, and certainly not a living prophet)

Edited March 12, 2015 by Uncle Dale

[mfbukowski]

I have to admit I'm endlessly fascinated by such an approach, because it is totally the opposite of what is taught in Church about many things.  For example, this is a teaching of Brigham Young that was recently reiterated in the Ensign:

 

 

 

So while I find your views eminently more reasonable, they seem off-topic in a discussion of what "Mormons" believe to the degree that we should take official Church teachings as being authoritative in that regard.

I cannot believe that you do not understand this.

 

The church teaches that Christ is the "way, the truth and the life" and is the source of "living water".

 

Is he paved in concrete and a trough to water horses as well?

[mfbukowski]

Time for Kevin's Perry Scheme again. 

 

Sigh.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_G._Perry

[mfbukowski]

.

Starting with Eliza R. Snow.

 

>As early as 1839 the Prophet Joseph Smith taught the concept

>of an eternal mother, as reported in several accounts from that

>period. Out of his teaching came a hymn that Latter-day Saints

>learn, sing, quote, and cherish, "O My Father," by Eliza R. Snow.

>President Wilford Woodruff called it a revelation (Woodruff, p. 62)

 

UD

(But Eliza admittedly was not a General Authority, and certainly not a living prophet)

Your point?

 

Heavenly Mother is a canonized doctrine because the Hymn "Oh My Father" contains the statement that "I have a Mother there".

 

I do not wish to carry this discussion further.  It is pointless.

[UtahTexan]

.

Starting with Eliza R. Snow.

 

>As early as 1839 the Prophet Joseph Smith taught the concept

>of an eternal mother, as reported in several accounts from that

>period. Out of his teaching came a hymn that Latter-day Saints

>learn, sing, quote, and cherish, "O My Father," by Eliza R. Snow.

>President Wilford Woodruff called it a revelation (Woodruff, p. 62)

 

UD

(But Eliza admittedly was not a General Authority, and certainly not a living prophet)

 

Is this important to you?  To what end?  Is it your point that you do not believe we have a Mother, or that you do not want one?

 

I am simply curious.  

[Uncle Dale]

...

 

So while I find your views eminently more reasonable, they seem off-topic in a discussion of what "Mormons" believe to the degree that we should take official Church teachings as being authoritative in that regard.

 

.

Such things may appear to be "off-topic" among members, discussing what

commandments must be obeyed, how ordinances are to be administered,

etc. But they may be very much "on-topic" for the curious investigator who

wishes to know just what he/she is getting into, before accepting the visiting

missionaries baptismal challenge.

 

Do you Mormons really believe _________? (fill in the blank)

 

What such an investigator would really be asking, is "After I join and start

living as you folks do, what will i be required to accept and profess?"

 

Typical investigator questions, relevant in the "just Google it" age.

 

Was God once as I am now?

 

Will I have to pay tithing on my gross or net income?

 

Will my deceased relatives be in the Celestial Kingdom with me?

 

Is it true that I won't be allowed to drink tea?

 

etc.

 

UD

"Off-topic" here, among the 98% of you who already know the

answers, but still of interest to us in the remaining 2%

Edited March 12, 2015 by Uncle Dale

[Uncle Dale]

Is this important to you?  To what end?  Is it your point that you do not believe we have a Mother, or that you do not want one?

 

I am simply curious.  

 

If it is LDS doctrine that your Heavenly Mother had Divine Parents,

then that is one "fork" in the doctrinal pathway. If, on the other hand,

She is also a progressed spirit-child of Eloheim, then that presents

another possible path to "more truth."

 

For option #1 (Heavenly Mother was the spirit-child of other Divine

Beings), the logical conclusion is that Eloheim Himself also was once

a spirit-child of Divine Beings.

 

For option #2 (Heavenly Mother was one of Eloheim's own spirit-children)

the possible conclusion is that earthlings' "ancestral eternal family" goes

back no earlier than Eloheim Himself -- and we need not think or ask

about such entities as a Heavenly Grandfather.

 

There is also a secondary consideration, I suppose, and it lies in the

old controversy of whether mercy can rob justice?

 

Option #3 -- God is the one who commands us. (We take orders from)

 

Option #4 -- God is Love (the epitome of Divine Grace, loved and giving love)

 

If I only concentrate upon Option #3, perhaps there is no need to ask whether

or not Heavenly Grandfather loves me. My relationship with Eloheim is that

of a soldier who takes orders, obeys, and does not question.

 

UD

Edited March 12, 2015 by Uncle Dale

[ksfisher]

.

Such things may appear to be "off-topic" among members, discussing what

commandments must be obeyed, how ordinances are to be administered,

etc. But they may be very much "on-topic" for the curious investigator who

wishes to know just what he/she is getting into, before accepting the visiting

missionaries baptismal challenge.

 

Do you Mormons really believe _________? (fill in the blank)

 

What such an investigator would really be asking, is "After I join and start

living as you folks do, what will i be required to accept and profess?"

 

Typical investigator questions, relevant in the "just Google it" age.

 

Was God once as I am now?

 

Will I have to pay tithing on my gross or net income?

 

Will my deceased relatives be in the Celestial Kingdom with me?

 

Is it true that I won't be allowed to drink tea?

 

etc.

 

"Off-topic" here, among the 98% of you who already know the

answers, but still of interest to us in the remaining 2%/

 

U

 

So are a lot of investigators asking where Mormons believe the moon come from?