Ahab Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 But the Trinity is not saying that the three persons are one kind of being, the creed is saying they are one being (and they don't mean a collective being like "family").Well then they're just wrong if they see it that way.But I can and do define the word being as a reference to a kind of being, and looking at it that way, it's true.
theplains Posted January 25, 2015 Posted January 25, 2015 I read it, but did not find the answer to my CFR. perhaps you could just quote the relevant part here.Where does it say why other mormon groups believe the LDS are in apostasy? Here is one example: "Church of Christ[4] Ezra Booth 1836 Church of the Latter Day Saints Defunct -Taught that Joseph Smith was not a prophet, and the Book of Mormon was not scripture." This Mormon group would view anyone accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet or the Book of Mormonas scripture as being apostate. The Community of Christ believe that the TOJCOLDS moved beyondcertain teachings of the original church. They believe they are the true church and other churchesare apostate. Hope this helps. I can't explain it any simpler. Thanks,Jim
rodheadlee Posted January 26, 2015 Posted January 26, 2015 For those of us who have been raised Mormon and for whom the idea of three distinct beings/father and son having physical bodies then of course they may appear to be unambiguous. But then my reading of the Bible (in a Mormon context) was the same.What do you think? Do you think those examples would be ambiguous to a Trinitarian?I'm a convert and I was raised a Protestant. I never understood the Trinity and it was one of the first things i found out about LDS teachings that had the ring of Truth and made me want to join the Church. 1
Tacenda Posted January 26, 2015 Posted January 26, 2015 (edited) I'm a convert and I was raised a Protestant. I never understood the Trinity and it was one of the first things i found out about LDS teachings that had the ring of Truth and made me want to join the Church.In a perfect world, we'd all live togerher with our families. Not live in different worlds, separate, creating billions of spirits. When will we have time to be with our original families, both children and parents, siblings etc.? I can see how it would make more sense knowing we have a father and mother in heaven, but it's no where in the Bible. I don't see how our church is all about families when in the hereafter we all separate to create worlds and spirits. . Edited January 26, 2015 by Tacenda
MormonFreeThinker Posted January 26, 2015 Posted January 26, 2015 Evidence???!How do you know otherwise MFT?It's all taken on faith. In all possible worlds 1 + 1 + 1 = 3If the world is not real, 1 + 1 + 1 = 3 is still true, that will never change, magic cannot change that fact. The Trinity contradicts logic and Math.
bluebell Posted January 26, 2015 Posted January 26, 2015 Here is one example: "Church of Christ[4] Ezra Booth 1836 Church of the Latter Day Saints Defunct -Taught that Joseph Smith was not a prophet, and the Book of Mormon was not scripture." This Mormon group would view anyone accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet or the Book of Mormonas scripture as being apostate. The Community of Christ believe that the TOJCOLDS moved beyondcertain teachings of the original church. They believe they are the true church and other churchesare apostate. Hope this helps. I can't explain it any simpler. Thanks,Jim I appreciate you trying but it doesn't actually help because it doesn't answer the original CFR. Remember that you wrote "Several things taught in the seminary manuals are not even in the Book of Mormon. Its understandable why some Mormon sects view the main larger LDS body as apostate." I want you to support your original statement that other mormon sects believe us to be in apostasy because we have doctrine that is not found in the Book of Mormon. This information you provided obviously does not support your original statement so it doesn't answer the CFR.
HOLY CATHOLIC Posted January 26, 2015 Posted January 26, 2015 (edited) How does 1 X 1 X 1 = 1 GOD contradict logic and math ? 2 Nephi 31:21 Alma 11:44 Mormon 7:7 D&C 20:28 Mark 12:28-29 Edited January 26, 2015 by HOLY CATHOLIC
pogi Posted January 26, 2015 Posted January 26, 2015 How does 1 X 1 X 1 = 1 GOD contradict logic and math ? Because you claim 3 different persons there must be a 3 in the equation somewhere. You can't multiple 3 different persons and come up with an answer of 1. It defies logic. Elementary my dear Watson! You fundamentally misinterpret our scripture, just like you do yours. 3
JLHPROF Posted January 26, 2015 Posted January 26, 2015 (edited) How does 1 X 1 X 1 = 1 GOD contradict logic and math ? Because you are multiplying 1 father x 1 son x 1 holy ghost = 1 god. For 1x1x1 to equal 1 all three items have to be identical. 1 father x 1 father x 1 father = 1 father1 son x 1 son x 1 son = 1 son1 equal god x 1 equal god x 1 equal god = 1 equal god but scripture tells us they aren't equal... 1 father x 1 son x 1 holy ghost does not equal 1 god but 3 gods. Especially since the Son tells us the Father is greater than he is, not equal to. (John 14:28) Edited January 26, 2015 by JLHPROF 3
Ahab Posted January 26, 2015 Posted January 26, 2015 Because you are multiplying 1 father x 1 son x 1 holy ghost = 1 god. For 1x1x1 to equal 1 all three items have to be identical.1 father x 1 father x 1 father = 1 father1 son x 1 son x 1 son = 1 son1 equal god x 1 equal god x 1 equal god = 1 equal godbut scripture tells us they aren't equal...1 father x 1 son x 1 holy ghost does not equal 1 god but 3 gods. Especially since the Son tells us the Father is greater than he is, not equal to. (John 14:28)Uh, what? They are equal in some ways. Just not in some other ways.And the math goes something more like this:1 person who is God+1 (other) person who is God+1 (yet another) person who is God=3 distinct and individual person who each are God. And they are the same God, or the same kind of God, that each of them is. They are all equally God, with each being God the same as any other.Once someone understands that they are then ready to start to understand how other persons, besides those 3 persons, can also be the same God too.
rockpond Posted January 26, 2015 Posted January 26, 2015 There's a tangent on the other thread about Book of Mormon belief that merits its own discussion.In the thread Scott said in response to someone else suggesting the BoM teaches Trinitarian doctrine:Is there somewhere that teaches this with absolute clarity the in the Book of Mormon? There may well be, I'm just scratching my head trying to think of where it is. It may be implied in places but I was wondering if it's said explicitly anywhere.If the bible is ambiguous enough about the nature of the Godhead that many millions of Christians are left believing an incorrect description of God, where, in the Book of Mormon, does it offer absolute clarity in a way the Bible does not that:- Father, Son and Holy Ghost are united in purpose by are three distinct individuals.- Father and Son have a body of flesh and bloodImagine a Trinitarian read the Book of Mormon in 1830. What would correct their misunderstanding? Canard, I'm not well versed on this but I did find Paul Toscano's thoughts on the matter to be of interest. There's a good summary here. But be forewarned... this is what got him excommunicated back in 1993 (September Six).
teddyaware Posted January 26, 2015 Posted January 26, 2015 (edited) How does 1 X 1 X 1 = 1 GOD contradict logic and math ? 2 Nephi 31:21 Alma 11:44 Mormon 7:7 D&C 20:28 Mark 12:28-29 You are correct. Over the years I've become convinced one of the LDS religion's most problematic issues is that many of its well-meaning defenders lack the in-depth knowledge needed to know how to employ the scriptures in order to effectively and successfully defend LDS theology, soteriology and doctrine. What I'm about to reveal might be a mystery to some, but I see this debate continuing on ad nauseam, into perpetuity, without the interjection of some Gospel "meat." I fully expect some of the LDS Church members here will choke and gag on this meat (so if you don't want to take the chance ending up choking and gagging, please read this post no further). The fact of the matter is that you, 'Holy Catholic,' are correct when you point out that the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine & Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price all make it very clear that while the three individual personages of the Godhead are divine, not one of these personages could be divine in His own right, nor even function in His role as God, apart from the perfect, unbreakable spiritual union each of these three holy personages enjoy as one corporate God, each with His own indispensable and interdependent role to perform. As it is with the apostle Paul's "body of Christ (the Church)," wherein no member of that body can say to any of the other member of the body,"I have no need of thee," so is it with the body of the First Presidency of Heaven -- no member of that Presidency can say to the others, "I have no need of thee." Just as it is true that the Son of God could not exist nor function as the Son of God without being in perfect spiritual union with His Father, so It is also verily true that God the Father could not exist nor function as God the Father without being in perfect spiritual union with His Son, "For if there be no Christ there be no God." (2 Nephi 11) God either functions as a union of Father, Son and Holy Ghost or, quite simply, there is no God. There must be a personage of God the Father, there must be a personage of the Son of God and there must be a personage of the Holy Ghost or there is no God. None of the members of the Godhead can exist or function as God unless all three of these personages work in perfect concert with each other in their complementary roles and missions. The God of scripture is a presiding Father, a Saviour, and a Testifier. God is not one individual with three missions (Modalism) but three interdependent individuals with three indispensable complimentary missions. There is nothing I've said thus far that contradicts the scriptures. Except for the Catholic doctrine of the immateriality of God (and I must admit that one is a biggie) the only truly substantive difference between the LDS concept of the Godhead and the Catholic/Protestant concept of the Trinity is that LDS theology eliminates the mystery as to how three individual personages can be one God, while the non-LDS churches have not as yet solved the mystery. But the day will come when the mystery of the three individual personage Godhead will be explained to them, and when it is revealed they will discover that the Latter-day Saints had it right all along. A Latter-day Saint can rant and rave and hem and haw against the above all he wants, but it cannot be denied that the scriptural revelation of the Godhead is presented to us as a Presidency wherein its individual members cannot be God nor function as God on their own. The LDS scriptures even go on to say that the personage of the Only Begotten Son is the "Word of His (the Father's) power" by which the Father created ALL THINGS. -- and how could God the Father create anything without power? The Father and the Son truly need each other in order to be able to successfully function as God. The God of the Standard Works of the LDS Church is a Heavenly Presidency of three interdependent individual Personages, each with His own essential and indispensable role to fulfill. The Father presides as the President, the Son creates and atones, the Holy Ghost testifies, purifies and sanctifies. Remove any one personage and His indispensable role from this Heavenly Presidency we call God and the works of God effectively comes to an end. And a God who can do no work is no God at all. Edited January 27, 2015 by teddyaware
mfbukowski Posted January 27, 2015 Posted January 27, 2015 (edited) How does 1 X 1 X 1 = 1 GOD contradict logic and math ? 2 Nephi 31:21 Alma 11:44 Mormon 7:7 D&C 20:28 Mark 12:28-29 1 Father + 1 Mother +1 Child = 1 Family. Three persons, one family Does that help? Edited January 27, 2015 by mfbukowski
HOLY CATHOLIC Posted January 27, 2015 Posted January 27, 2015 (edited) The Athanasion Creed does teach Jesus is inferior to the Father. So how could Jesus statement that the Father is greater than him contradict the Trinity line 33 of the Creed. and the Catholic faith does teach Jesus has a body of flesh and bone. 1 Timothy 2:5 So God is material Edited January 27, 2015 by HOLY CATHOLIC
mfbukowski Posted January 27, 2015 Posted January 27, 2015 The Athanasion Creed does teach Jesus is inferior to the Father. So how could Jesus statement that the Father is greater than him contradict the Trinity line 33 of the Creed. and the Catholic faith does teach Jesus has a body of flesh and bone. 1 Timothy 2:5 So God is materialAh so Christ is not perfect, hey? He can't be perfect if he is inferior. Who thought that one up?
teddyaware Posted January 27, 2015 Posted January 27, 2015 (edited) The Athanasion Creed does teach Jesus is inferior to the Father. So how could Jesus statement that the Father is greater than him contradict the Trinity line 33 of the Creed. and the Catholic faith does teach Jesus has a body of flesh and bone. 1 Timothy 2:5 So God is material From the Trinitarian point of view, apart from the personage of the Son, it would seem the only way the personages of the Father and the Holy Ghost could be considered to have some materiality would be under some sort of heretical Modalist construct. Just because the personage of the Son has a material body doesn't mean the personage of the Father has materiality as a personage as well. Is it not the Catholic position that the personage of Christ has some materiality but the personage of the Father does not? It seems logical that the only way a Catholic could say the personage of the Father has a material component would be if the personage of the Father is identical (one and the same person) with the personage as the Son. Edited January 27, 2015 by teddyaware
Robert F. Smith Posted January 28, 2015 Posted January 28, 2015 (edited) Here is one example: "Church of Christ[4] Ezra Booth 1836 Church of the Latter Day Saints Defunct -Taught that Joseph Smith was not a prophet, and the Book of Mormon was not scripture." This Mormon group would view anyone accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet or the Book of Mormonas scripture as being apostate. The Community of Christ believe that the TOJCOLDS moved beyondcertain teachings of the original church. They believe they are the true church and other churchesare apostate. Hope this helps. I can't explain it any simpler. Thanks,Jim I appreciate you trying but it doesn't actually help because it doesn't answer the original CFR. Remember that you wrote "Several things taught in the seminary manuals are not even in the Book of Mormon. Its understandable why some Mormon sects view the main larger LDS body as apostate." I want you to support your original statement that other mormon sects believe us to be in apostasy because we have doctrine that is not found in the Book of Mormon. This information you provided obviously does not support your original statement so it doesn't answer the CFR.The various Whitmerite sects (following David Whitmer) hae been around for a long time and some persist. Book of Mormon Christian/Reformed Mormon/Whitmerite (http://www.cougarstadium.com/showthread.php?63101-Book-of-Mormon-Christian-Reformed-Mormon-Whitmerite ) Whitmerite Sects in the Latter Day Saint Movement: Church of Christ, Church of Christ, Church of Christ (General Books LLC, 2010). Church of Christ (Whitmerite), etc. Pentecostal Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Whitmerite) These groups basically believe that the Book of Mormon was Joseph Smith's only assigned task and that he apostatized after completing that task. I spent years in discussion with such sects while living in Independence, Missouri. Edited January 28, 2015 by Robert F. Smith
HOLY CATHOLIC Posted January 30, 2015 Posted January 30, 2015 In Luke 2:51 Jesus was subject to Mary and Joseph Fumbkowski would say then Mary and Joseph were in a higher position than the GOD of the universe
Calm Posted January 30, 2015 Posted January 30, 2015 Who is Joseph Fumbkowski and why should we listen to him?
mfbukowski Posted January 30, 2015 Posted January 30, 2015 (edited) Who is Joseph Fumbkowski and why should we listen to him?I resemble that re-Mark! ;-)Guess holy is hitting the altar wine again. Edited January 30, 2015 by mfbukowski
mfbukowski Posted January 30, 2015 Posted January 30, 2015 The Athanasion Creed does teach Jesus is inferior to the Father. So how could Jesus statement that the Father is greater than him contradict the Trinity line 33 of the Creed. and the Catholic faith does teach Jesus has a body of flesh and bone. 1 Timothy 2:5 So God is materialIt wasn't me who said that Christ was inferior to the Father
Calm Posted January 30, 2015 Posted January 30, 2015 (edited) I resemble that re-Mark! ;-)Guess holy is hitting the altar wine again.Oh, I get it. He left out punctuation and misspelled your name. English is fun. I thought he was actually trying to add something of substance for once though I couldn't for the life of me figure it out, but he was at least citing someone. Too bad. Edited January 30, 2015 by calmoriah
HOLY CATHOLIC Posted January 31, 2015 Posted January 31, 2015 The reason most Mormons have no clue about the teachings of the Trinity is the Mormon leadership tries to convince their followers we believe in modalism . The Creeds actually attack the modalism teaching by saying the Three separate persons exist . Yet recent leaders like Holland and Hales still persist in teaching this nonsense following the same path Le Grand Richards, Tallmadge etc. initiated .
Bobbieaware Posted January 31, 2015 Posted January 31, 2015 The reason most Mormons have no clue about the teachings of the Trinity is the Mormon leadership tries to convince their followers we believe in modalism . The Creeds actually attack the modalism teaching by saying the Three separate persons exist . Yet recent leaders like Holland and Hales still persist in teaching this nonsense following the same path Le Grand Richards, Tallmadge etc. initiated . The reason why most Mormons think non-LDS Christians believe in Modalism is because the leaders and teachers of the Non-LDS Churches do such a poor job teaching that the Trinity is composed of three separate and distinct personages that the members of their Churches come away thinking they believe in Modalism. 1
MormonFreeThinker Posted January 31, 2015 Posted January 31, 2015 The reason most Mormons have no clue about the teachings of the Trinity is the Mormon leadership tries to convince their followers we believe in modalism . The Creeds actually attack the modalism teaching by saying the Three separate persons exist . Yet recent leaders like Holland and Hales still persist in teaching this nonsense following the same path Le Grand Richards, Tallmadge etc. initiated . Modolism is better than the Trinity, modolism doesn't contradict simple math and logic. Modolism and the Trinity are not found in the scriptures.
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