canard78 Posted February 2, 2015 Author Posted February 2, 2015 Yes, 1 object + 1 object + 1 object = 3 objects. If the world is dream, if the world is a matrix, if the world is an illusion, 1 + 1 +1 = 3 is still true, that won't change. Many philosophers say that Math is the only thing that we can be absolutely certain about. "If in other sciences we should arrive at certainty without doubt and truth without error, it behooves us to place the foundations of knowledge in mathematics" Roger Bacon Opus Majus, Book 1, Chapter 4 "Mathematical certainty is possible only in mathematics, for there alone can we establish absolute identities between terms. Only in mathematics are terms sufficiently simple" - Durkheim's Philosophy LecturesFor your equation to be correct you first have to prove that the father, son and Holy Ghost are 3 independent and singular "objects." How are you planning doing that?
Calm Posted February 2, 2015 Posted February 2, 2015 (edited) Yes, 1 object + 1 object + 1 object = 3 objects. If the world is dream, if the world is a matrix, if the world is an illusion, 1 + 1 +1 = 3 is still true, that won't change. Many philosophers say that Math is the only thing that we can be absolutely certain about. "If in other sciences we should arrive at certainty without doubt and truth without error, it behooves us to place the foundations of knowledge in mathematics" Roger Bacon Opus Majus, Book 1, Chapter 4 "Mathematical certainty is possible only in mathematics, for there alone can we establish absolute identities between terms. Only in mathematics are terms sufficiently simple" - Durkheim's Philosophy LecturesYour philosophers of choice are not aware of the past century of philosophy. You have anything more up to date?Math rests ultimately on assumptions (axioms) we can't prove.What if those assumptions are wrong? Edited February 2, 2015 by calmoriah 1
pogi Posted February 2, 2015 Posted February 2, 2015 (edited) I am pretty sure the person was mistaken although growing up in the Church I had always imagined God actually came into the grove. But now I'm pretty sure he was caught up in the Spirit. In several of the first vision accounts it states that "..my mind was taken away from the objects with which I was surrounded" Wentworth letter. That is my understanding as well after studying the several accounts. Like you say, several accounts state that his "mind was caught away", or "the natural world around him was excluded from his view". These accounts of the opening of the vision suggest that it was not an actual physical encounter as we might think of it, because he seemed to lose consciousness of the physical world. Also there is evidence at the close of the vision which corroborates this: "The vision then vanished, and when I come to my self, I was sprawling on my back; and it was sometime before my strength returned." Finally, from the official account: "When I came to myself again I found myself lying on <my> back looking up into Heaven." It seems to suggest that if there was an outside observer or witness of what happened in the grove, I think they would have reported that Joseph passed out, or became unconscious in the grove while praying. Edited February 2, 2015 by pogi 1
MormonFreeThinker Posted February 2, 2015 Posted February 2, 2015 (edited) For your equation to be correct you first have to prove that the father, son and Holy Ghost are 3 independent and singular "objects." How are you planning doing that? Simple, there are no three "objects" that are one "object" The burden of proof falls on you, how can a being be three persons? It is impossible. Your philosophers of choice are not aware of the past century of philosophy. You have anything more up to date?Math rests ultimately on assumptions (axioms) we can't prove.What if those assumptions are wrong? There are no assumptions in the simple Math of adding natural numbers. Where are the assumptions for 1 + 1 + 1 = 3? Where are the interpretations? How is it wrong? Edited February 3, 2015 by MormonFreeThinker
Ahab Posted February 2, 2015 Posted February 2, 2015 Simple, there are no three "objects" that are one "object" There are no assumptions in the simple Math of adding. Where are the assumptions for 1 + 1 + 1 = 3? Where are the interpretations? How is it wrong?It depends on what you're talking about. 1 kind of being+1 kind of being+1 kind of being=1 kind of being if each of the 3 are the same kind of being.
JLHPROF Posted February 2, 2015 Posted February 2, 2015 It depends on what you're talking about.1 kind of being+1 kind of being+1 kind of being=1 kind of being if each of the 3 are the same kind of being. Nonsense - how can 1 teacher + 1 teacher + 1 teacher = anything except 3 teachers.1+1+1 ALWAYS = 3 Now, 1x1x1=1 but how do we multiply Gods together... 1
Levi951 Posted February 2, 2015 Posted February 2, 2015 That is my understanding as well after studying the several accounts. Like you say, several accounts state that his "mind was caught away", or "the natural world around him was excluded from his view". These accounts of the opening of the vision suggest that it was not an actual physical encounter as we might think of it, because he seemed to lose consciousness of the physical world. Also there is evidence at the close of the vision which corroborates this: "The vision then vanished, and when I come to my self, I was sprawling on my back; and it was sometime before my strength returned." Finally, from the official account: "When I came to myself again I found myself lying on <my> back looking up into Heaven." It seems to suggest that if there was an outside observer or witness of what happened in the grove, I think they would have reported that Joseph passed out, or became unconscious in the grove while praying. Yes nicely said, "he seemed to lose consciousness of the physical world" also important to note that he didn't lose consciousness himself like going to sleep and then dreaming. Because he says " my mind was taken away from the objects with which I was surrounded" 1
Ahab Posted February 2, 2015 Posted February 2, 2015 Nonsense - how can 1 teacher + 1 teacher + 1 teacher = anything except 3 teachers.1+1+1 ALWAYS = 3No, not always. It depends on what is being added together. Now, 1x1x1=1 but how do we multiply Gods together...The relevant question here is how do we multiply persons who each are God into even more persons who each are God?Ask your Mother and Father how they did it, as 2 persons multiplied to create even more persons, and with each being the same kind of being.It's like, magic.
Levi951 Posted February 2, 2015 Posted February 2, 2015 "7.But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory : 8.Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.......10. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.11. For what man knoweth the things of man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. -1 Corinthians 2:7-11 22. All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him. - St Luke 10:22
teddyaware Posted February 3, 2015 Posted February 3, 2015 (edited) Nonsense - how can 1 teacher + 1 teacher + 1 teacher = anything except 3 teachers.1+1+1 ALWAYS = 3 Now, 1x1x1=1 but how do we multiply Gods together... The reason why 1+1+1= 1 in the scriptures (and I wonder if you realize you are contradicting the Book of Mormon as you press this point) is because not one of the three members of the Godhead could function alone as the creating, saving and sanctifying God of the scriptures without being utterly interdependent and inextricably bound to the others. In order "to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man," there must be a presiding Father of Spirits, a Saviour who also functions as the "Word" of the Father's power, and a sanctifying Spirit called the Holy Ghost who can dwell within man. Remove any one of these holy Beings from the Godhead and you have a powerless godhead who cannot create, save and sanctify. The one God of the Book of Mormon MUST be composed of an interdependent Father, Son and Holy Ghost, each of whom must perfectly perform their own individual roles and missions or there is no God who can function as God. The one God of the Book of Mormon is a Presidency or there is no God at all. The Father NEEDS the Son and the Holy Ghost in order to to be able to function as the Father; the Son NEEDS the Father and the Holy Ghost in order to able to function as the Son; the Holy Ghost NEEDS the Father and the Son in order to be able to function as the Holy Ghost. When Nephi says, "if there be no Christ there be no God" he fully understood the above and that's why he said it. Edited February 3, 2015 by teddyaware
pogi Posted February 3, 2015 Posted February 3, 2015 (edited) not one of the three members of the Godhead could function alone as the creating, saving and sanctifying God of the scriptures without being utterly interdependent and inextricably bound to the others. In order "to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man," there must be a presiding Father of Spirits, a Saviour who also functions as the "Word" of the Father's power, and a sanctifying Spirit called the Holy Ghost who can dwell within man. Remove any one of these holy Beings from the Godhead and you have a powerless godhead who cannot create, save and sanctify. Yes, and man cannot create a child without a women, he is "utterly interdependent and inextricably bound to the other in order to bring to pass the...life of man." Yet they are two distinct beings. Weird, right? Not really. 1+1 does not equal 1, even when they are "interdependent" to bring to pass a specific purpose. Edited February 3, 2015 by pogi
teddyaware Posted February 3, 2015 Posted February 3, 2015 (edited) Yes, and man cannot create a child without a women, he is "utterly interdependent and inextricably bound to the other in order to bring to pass the...life of man." Yet they are two distinct beings. Weird, right? Not really. 1+1 does not equal 1, even when they are "interdependent" to bring to pass a specific purpose. As a frequent TBM poster on this board, I though it went without saying that i believe the Godhead is composed of three separate and distinct individual Men. But I guess I thought wrong. In accord with your first comment, that patriarchal Godhead of Father, Mother and Son are also totally interdependent. No man or woman can be fully exalted without being sealed together by the power and authority of God as eternal companions. The Godhead, and eternal husbands and wives, clearly prove that, even in heaven, no man or woman is an island. Edited February 3, 2015 by teddyaware
mfbukowski Posted February 3, 2015 Posted February 3, 2015 (edited) Yes, 1 object + 1 object + 1 object = 3 objects. If the world is dream, if the world is a matrix, if the world is an illusion, 1 + 1 +1 = 3 is still true, that won't change. Many philosophers say that Math is the only thing that we can be absolutely certain about. "If in other sciences we should arrive at certainty without doubt and truth without error, it behooves us to place the foundations of knowledge in mathematics" Roger Bacon Opus Majus, Book 1, Chapter 4 "Mathematical certainty is possible only in mathematics, for there alone can we establish absolute identities between terms. Only in mathematics are terms sufficiently simple" - Durkheim's Philosophy LecturesSorry, I won't argue with you about it. It serves no purpose. Bacon wrote in the 16th century and Durkheim lived in the 19th century. Two philosophers do not constitute "most" and philosophy really has advanced in the last several hundred years. It appears you think that no one has criticized these positions over the last few hundreds of years, but they have. Good luck to you. Edited February 3, 2015 by mfbukowski 1
mfbukowski Posted February 3, 2015 Posted February 3, 2015 For your equation to be correct you first have to prove that the father, son and Holy Ghost are 3 independent and singular "objects." How are you planning doing that?There are innumerable other problems as well, but that is one.
canard78 Posted February 3, 2015 Author Posted February 3, 2015 (edited) Actually... On second thoughts... Deleted... I just don't have the energy to keep going round in circles with MormonRigidThinker Edited February 3, 2015 by canard78
canard78 Posted February 3, 2015 Author Posted February 3, 2015 I fact, given this thread was about Trinitarianism in the Book of Mormon and is now about pointless maths arguments I think it's probably fair to say the thread has run its course.Those of you who want to keep discussing 1+1 equations can feel free to start a new thread. That's right... I'm taking my ball and I'm going home. 2
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