Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted January 22, 2015 Posted January 22, 2015 (edited) Yes three persons exist as the ONE GOD not three gods like Joseph Smith taughtUgh. You are wrong plain and simple. They are 3 divine beings, that are separate and distinct, that make up the God Head. They are not some montheistic metaphysically one being. It is a logical contradiction. Edited January 22, 2015 by Mola Ram Suda Ram 1
Ahab Posted January 22, 2015 Posted January 22, 2015 (edited) Yes three persons exist as the ONE GOD not three gods like Joseph Smith taughtHe didn't really care that much about trying to be "politically" correct, so just try to understand that what he was thinking when he used the word "gods" or "Gods" was "persons who are God". He did understand that there is only one kind of being that is the supreme kind of being in all of existence. It's just that it's quicker to write gods/Gods than "persons who are God."You Catholics have always been a bit persnickity about putting an "s" on the word God, though, so I'll understand if you can't get past that, personally. Edited January 22, 2015 by Ahab
HOLY CATHOLIC Posted January 22, 2015 Posted January 22, 2015 The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith teach the godhead is three gods page 370 while Jesus and Main line Christianity teach the GODHEAD is ONE GOD, Mark 12:28-29
Calm Posted January 22, 2015 Posted January 22, 2015 (edited) Multiplication is groups of something or simply, groups of numbers. 1x1x1 is not accurate at all in trying to use math for the Godhead. It would always have to be 1 + 1 +1= 1. That is contradictory to the laws of math. It doesn't work. it equals 3. God is a title though. "God is one" means they are one in purpose and that they have the same mind. Not in substance or essence or some other mystical scene. John 17 makes that very clear. Using 1x1x1=1 as if it proves something about the Trinity when what it really means is taking one group of one by itself counted once and then counting the same again without adding another identity or group of one to it (add parentheses if confused) demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of what multiplication is or a complete disregard of what the equation symbolizes and instead just making it up, much like giving a word a new definition without regard to how anyone else is using it…in other words the equation is just talking about one identity on both sides of the equation, not three on one side and one on the other. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiplication Edited January 22, 2015 by calmoriah 1
Calm Posted January 22, 2015 Posted January 22, 2015 The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith teach the godhead is three gods page 370 while Jesus and Main line Christianity teach the GODHEAD is ONE GOD, Mark 12:28-29 What is the smiley face supposed to do at the end of your posts…besides be annoying. 1
Ahab Posted January 22, 2015 Posted January 22, 2015 The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith teach the godhead is three gods page 370 while Jesus and Main line Christianity teach the GODHEAD is ONE GOD, Mark 12:28-29 CAN YOU HEAR ME ?HELLO ?DID YOU READ WHAT I WROTE ?There's supposedly some intelligence in there somewhere.Gods = persons who are God. It's really not that hard to understand what he meant.
teddyaware Posted January 22, 2015 Posted January 22, 2015 (edited) Ugh. You are wrong plain and simple. They are 3 divine beings, that are separate and distinct, that make up the God Head. They are not some montheistic metaphysically one being. It is a logical contradiction. But have you ever thought of this? One of the grand reasons why the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one God is because no member of the Godhead could act in a meaningful or effective way, as God, without the others acting effectively in their roles. There would be no need for a redeeming Son without a Father to create our spirits; there would be no proper need for a Father if there were no Son to redeem the spirits that enter a fallen state so that they can grow and learn through opposition; there would be no need for a Holy Ghost if there were no Father of spirits and atoning Son of whom to testify. In other words, in the eternal scheme of things, not one of the members of the Godhead could effectively act in His role unless the other personages effectively function in their roles. In the Church, we are told no part of the body of Christ can say to the other parts of the body he has no need for them. So too for the Godhead: no member of the Godhead can say to the other members He has no need for Them. So, in reality, there could not be three Gods, as Joseph Smith said, unless they all act in perfect concert with each other. So God is an interdependent Corporate Body that cannot be God unless there is a creating Father, atoning Son, and testifying Holy Ghost, This is the one God of Mormonism, each performing their individual roles in perfect effectiveness and with perfect unity of purpose. Edited January 22, 2015 by teddyaware
MormonFreeThinker Posted January 22, 2015 Posted January 22, 2015 (edited) It would always have to be 1 + 1 +1= 1. That is contradictory to the laws of math. It doesn't work. but do you care about the laws of physics? Yes three persons exist as the ONE GOD How do you know? How can three persons be one being? Evidence please. Edited January 22, 2015 by MormonFreeThinker
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted January 22, 2015 Posted January 22, 2015 Using 1x1x1=1 as if it proves something about the Trinity when what it really means is taking one group of one by itself counted once and then counting the same again without adding another identity or group of one to it (add parentheses if confused) demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of what multiplication is or a complete disregard of what the equation symbolizes and instead just making it up, much like giving a word a new definition without regard to how anyone else is using it…in other words the equation is just talking about one identity on both sides of the equation, not three on one side and one on the other. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MultiplicationYeah, I was just commenting on the other thread. This is more like modelism if you multiply it all.
Ironrod Posted January 22, 2015 Posted January 22, 2015 For me, the great clarification is found in 3 Nephi 11:7, where the Savior says the following: "Behold my Beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased, in whom I have glorified my name—hear ye him." That leaves no ambiguity there. The Savior expounds on that a little in verse 27, which may be confusing to some. Abinadi doesn't really help much with this in Mosiah 15:2-4, but a careful reading explains how the Godhead is three separate people. I've always thought the Bible did a great job anyway. All three were present at the baptism of the Savior. One the cross, the Savior cried out "Father, why has thou forsaken me?" He told the disciples he had to leave them or the Holy Ghost could not come, and post-resurrection told Mary "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father." (John 20:17). The great intercessory prayer of John 17 shows how they are separate yet interconnected. Who was he praying to in the Garden of Gethsemane? Himself? Not likely. He mentions in John 5:30 that "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." There are similar distinctions in the Book of Mormon, but I'm sure how much more plain it can be. 1
Calm Posted January 22, 2015 Posted January 22, 2015 (edited) The creed does not teach they were one person, but three people as one infinite being.An infinite being is not seen as the same as a person or individual as is at times used for finite beings such as a human being? Edited January 22, 2015 by calmoriah
MormonFreeThinker Posted January 22, 2015 Posted January 22, 2015 (edited) The Book of Mormon clearly contradicts modalism "Behold, I am Jesus Christ the Son of God. I created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are. I was with the Father from the beginning. I am in the Father, and the Father in me; and in me hath the Father glorified his name." (3 Nephi 9:15) John 1:1 says "with God" which allows for many interpretations, but 3 Nephi 9:15 says "with the Father" Onesspentecostals say,"The Word was the absolute thought, reason, plan, or mind of God, before the Incarnation. In the beginning, the Word was with God, not as a separate and distinct person but as God Himself." 3 Nephi 9:15 clarifies John 1:1 Edited January 22, 2015 by MormonFreeThinker
theplains Posted January 22, 2015 Posted January 22, 2015 I liked to see some references outlining exactly why some Mormon sects believe us to be in apostasy. I don't think you have a clue what you are talking about. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sects_in_the_Latter_Day_Saint_movementIt explains it well. Regards,Jim
bluebell Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sects_in_the_Latter_Day_Saint_movementIt explains it well.Regards,JimI read it, but did not find the answer to my CFR. perhaps you could just quote the relevant part here. Where does it say why other mormon groups believe the LDS are in apostasy? Edited January 23, 2015 by bluebell
mfbukowski Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 Substance Essence Being God and Godhead are synonym's in creedal verbiage Well it's good to see you understand how those words can mean anything and nothing.
Vance Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith teach the godhead is three gods page 370 while Jesus and Main line Christianity teach the GODHEAD is ONE GOD, Mark 12:28-29 Even the trinity teaches that there are three Gods. "The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God", ergo, three Gods. But then it goes on to contradict itself.
Rivers Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.gotquestions.org/images/trinity.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.gotquestions.org/Trinity-Bible.html&h=1080&w=1108&tbnid=qVFP0uC6VJ9TpM:&zoom=1&docid=1e0U14A-SmMKZM&hl=en&ei=K7LCVM6oC4O0yQSfqYHADA&tbm=isch&client=safari&ved=0CCYQMygCMAIThis chart explaining the trinity is exactly what Mormons believe. We just admit that it's not monotheism. Edited January 23, 2015 by Rivers
HOLY CATHOLIC Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 Jesus said no three gods but ONE Mark 12:28-29
3DOP Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) Even the trinity teaches that there are three Gods. "The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God", ergo, three Gods. But then it goes on to contradict itself. Hi Vance. Always good to see you. Why do you think we believe what you perceive to be contradictory? I am just wondering what would be the motive of persistent, stubborn insistence upon that which is obviously absurd carried on generation after generation for centuries? If you will understand us, you have to think like us. Nobody can believe anything that is clearly absurd for very long. Why don't you try to figure out how we reconcile what you see as a contradiction? It won't mean you have to believe it, but you will understand us better. It isn't justice to convict a pickpocket of armed robbery. Nor is it a virtue to make error appear to be worse than it is. I have tried to think LDS, and without making me a Mormon, it has enabled me to dismiss every problem that is raised even by people within your own church. I wouldn't be bothered about polygamy, blacks in the priesthood, Mountain Meadows, Adam-God. You have good answers for those who are willing to consider them. Have you tried to think like a Catholic? Have you considered what it would mean if God created ex nihilo, or do you study the Trinity with an assumption that God created out of pre-existent matter? It makes a difference Vance. It is a false picture if you superimpose the Catholic Trinity on to a Mormon cosmos. NOBODY believes in that. You have to look at The Catholic Trinity or the Lutheran Trinity or the Calvinist Trinity as an entire package It seems to me that Christian revelation itself insists upon oneness and threeness in the Godhead. All of us have to figure out in what ways God is one and in what ways God is three. Surely we can disagree about the dividing line without contradicting ourselves? I have never said that Mormons are materialists with a weak god who can't bring matter out of nothing. I admit I think it. I am so conditioned that I couldn't worship such a "god". But why say it? That is just me in "not trying to understand my opponent" mode. Evangelism never denies the truth. But the truth is that nobody believes what they know is ridiculous and we have to try to understand why people can believe what they do. To try to persuade without doing so is guaranteed to alienate. Whatever is true, it will be ridiculed, because God wanted to save the world with what is "foolishness" to the world. I am rambling now...I'll close with a favorite poet, John Henry Newman, a midlife convert to the Catholic faith, who lived to the age of ninety. From The Dream of Gerontius: Firmly I believe and trulyGod is Three, and God is One;And I next acknowledge dulyManhood taken by the Son. And I trust and hope most fullyIn that Manhood crucified;And each thought and deed unrulyDo to death, as He has died. Simply to His grace and whollyLight and life and strength belong,And I love supremely, solely,Him the holy, Him the strong. And I hold in veneration,For the love of Him alone,Holy Church as His creation,And her teachings are His own. And I take with joy whateverNow besets me, pain or fear,And with a strong will I severAll the ties which bind me here. Adoration aye be given,With and through the angelic host,To the God of earth and Heaven,Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Edited January 23, 2015 by 3DOP 1
Ahab Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 Time is precious.Ignore trolls.Oh come on. It can be fun to sing about them. Troll, troll, troll your boat gently dowm the streamMerrily, merrily, merrily, merrily life is like a dream...All together now!Troll, troll, troll..
canard78 Posted January 23, 2015 Author Posted January 23, 2015 but do you care about the laws of physics? How do you know? How can three persons be one being? Evidence please.Evidence???!How do you know otherwise MFT?It's all taken on faith. 1
Calm Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) It's all taken on faith. Which is not a bad thing at all, imo. Just don't use math that doesn't say anything close to what is being claimed to attempt to demonstrate your position. Edited January 23, 2015 by calmoriah
Ahab Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 How can three persons be one being? Evidence please.All it takes is a definition of being that allows for more than one person to be that kind of being.Elementary, really.
Calm Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 But the Trinity is not saying that the three persons are one kind of being, the creed is saying they are one being (and they don't mean a collective being like "family").
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