Receiving A Revelation About The Book Of Mormon

[theplains]

I had a question about something mentioned on page 157 of "Mine Errand from the Lord" 

by Boyd K. Packer.  It is also found in Ensign, May 1986, “The Things of My Soul”. 

 

It says, "No missionary, no member can fulfill that promise—neither Apostle nor President 

can fulfill that promise. It is a promise of direct revelation to you on the conditions 

described in the book. After you have read the Book of Mormon, you become qualified to 

inquire of the Lord, in the way that He prescribes in the book, as to whether the book is 

true. You will be eligible, on the conditions He has established, to receive that personal 

revelation".

 

Do you find a growing trend in that the missionaries will ask you to receive this promise only

after you have read a few verses or pages or is it just the practice of some novice missionaries

who are eager to seek a new convert?

 

I have talked with a few and they seem to want to jump the gun so to speak.

 

What has your experience been?

 

Thanks,

Jim

[ksfisher]

Perhaps another growing trend is that many people won't read anything longer than a two paragraph blog entry.

[Stargazer]

I don't remember being asked by the missionaries to pray about the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. But that was almost fifty years ago, and I am sure they did, at some point.

 

The thing is, I don't believe that I, as a proselyte, ever asked Heavenly Father if it were true.  I do remember asking Him this after I had read the book all the way through cover to cover for the first time, in preparation for my mission.  I also remember getting annoyed with Heavenly Father for not answering me in some dramatic way, or even at all.  

 

What I thought was interesting was this: after I asked Heavenly Father several times if the Book of Mormon was true and He steadfastly refused to answer me, I suddenly realized that I had passed the point of having a testimony of it some time before, and I was  not sure at that time when that had occurred.  

 

Later, upon greater reflection it seemed to me that I became aware that the book was the Word of God from the first moment I had laid eyes on it.  I had not even needed to read it.  

 

I am still marveling at that.

 

And I do know that I am not the only person for whom this is true.

[Crypto]

I have no idea about the missionaries, but I do see a trend from multiple hour length movies to 6:00 youtube vids, to 6 sec vines.

[Robert F. Smith]

I don't remember being asked by the missionaries to pray about the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. But that was almost fifty years ago, and I am sure they did, at some point.

 

The thing is, I don't believe that I, as a proselyte, ever asked Heavenly Father if it were true.  I do remember asking Him this after I had read the book all the way through cover to cover for the first time, in preparation for my mission.  I also remember getting annoyed with Heavenly Father for not answering me in some dramatic way, or even at all.  

 

What I thought was interesting was this: after I asked Heavenly Father several times if the Book of Mormon was true and He steadfastly refused to answer me, I suddenly realized that I had passed the point of having a testimony of it some time before, and I was  not sure at that time when that had occurred.  

 

Later, upon greater reflection it seemed to me that I became aware that the book was the Word of God from the first moment I had laid eyes on it.  I had not even needed to read it.  

 

I am still marveling at that.

 

And I do know that I am not the only person for whom this is true.

You're not the only one.

 

I always knew that Joseph was a prophet, and that the Book of Mormon was true (even before I had read it) while still a very small boy.

 

The only time the Holy Spirit communicated with me in a distinct fashion was to make it clear that I needed to be at the Temple regularly -- something I have done ever since.  And it was a surprise, not in answer to prayer, although it happened while a young sister missionary from Manila (Sister Valverde) bore her testimony to a group years ago.  I have never met her, and she is unaware of the impact of her testimony on that occasion.  Indeed, I have come to believe that the testimony of a missionary of the Lord is the most powerful element of conversion.  The Lord provides the undeniable perception and witness of the Holy Spirit to all who choose to listen.

[CV75]

 

I had a question about something mentioned on page 157 of "Mine Errand from the Lord" 

by Boyd K. Packer.  It is also found in Ensign, May 1986, “The Things of My Soul”. 

 

It says, "No missionary, no member can fulfill that promise—neither Apostle nor President 

can fulfill that promise. It is a promise of direct revelation to you on the conditions 

described in the book. After you have read the Book of Mormon, you become qualified to 

inquire of the Lord, in the way that He prescribes in the book, as to whether the book is 

true. You will be eligible, on the conditions He has established, to receive that personal 

revelation".

 

Do you find a growing trend in that the missionaries will ask you to receive this promise only

after you have read a few verses or pages or is it just the practice of some novice missionaries

who are eager to seek a new convert?

 

I have talked with a few and they seem to want to jump the gun so to speak.

 

What has your experience been?

 

Thanks,

Jim

 

Moroni 10:3-5 does not quantify the amount of “these things” to read; or which of His acts or “how merciful the Lord hath been.” Your reference likewise doesn’t quantify how much of the Book or Mormon is necessary to read before seeking a witness, but enough to ask “if these things are not true …with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ,” which is “the way that He prescribes in the book.”

 

So my experience has been to see all sorts of successful application of the promise. In my case, the way I came across it, I read the book without any guidance one way or the other as to how much to read or when to pray about it. Turns out I didn't pray about it until after I read the whole thing.

[Ahab]

Boyd, aka Elder Packer, was making the point that Moroni's promise was conditional and that a person must fulfill those conditions before expecting to receive what Moroni promised. And that is just good common sense, just as it would be with anyone's promise when a promise is conditional.

Now as to that trend you are asking about, no I haven't noticed any, but I have heard some missionaries make their own promises and many of theirs were also conditional. They weren't attempting to alter Moroni's promise, though, and I don't see any problem with anyone making a promise as long as they can make good on what they have promised.

I like to pray/communicate with our Father all of the time, about anything and everything, but I still like to hear people tell me about what they promise he will give me if I ask him for something and fulfill his conditions. Not that God must fulfill what they have promised, but sometimes he does, and I like it when that happens.

[rongo]

Have you noticed the "People Magazine - ization" of Church magazines (lots more pictures and graphics, much less and less demanding text) as a reflection of the larger cultural trend of general illiteracy (or under-literacy: less reading)?

 

Even the FP messages are usually just a couple of paragraphs now.

 

I remember the days of robust, substantial articles, and yearn for those days. Instead of half of the magazine being "Name withheld," porn addiction, singles can be happy in their singleness, coping with divorce, articles etc.

[Ahab]

Have you noticed the "People Magazine - ization" of Church magazines (lots more pictures and graphics, much less and less demanding text) as a reflection of the larger cultural trend of general illiteracy (or under-literacy: less reading)?

Even the FP messages are usually just a couple of paragraphs now.

I remember the days of robust, substantial articles, and yearn for those days. Instead of half of the magazine being "Name withheld," porn addiction, singles can be happy in their singleness, coping with divorce, articles etc.

Yeah reading the printed word isn't needed as much these days since there are other and better ways to transfer thoughts.

I've always liked seeing and hearing people without having to read what they write, and with God we don't even need to see him to hear from him. I'm really looking forward to perfecting that ability.

[rongo]

I disagree, Ahab. I think we (and the world) have really lost something when reading declines. I mean, why do we wonder why retention rates are so bad? Almost no converts have read anything in the scriptures on their own (and they read almost nothing that's secular, either) ---- but then, most members don't read scriptures much. They might scroll around a bit on their device in gospel doctrine, and "talk prep" becomes doing a search on lds.org . . .

 

Book on tape in the car is not a substitute for scripture study. . .

 

I also think that there is a direct connection between the decline of reading and the "foofiness" of the content in Church magazines.

[CV75]

I disagree, Ahab. I think we (and the world) have really lost something when reading declines. I mean, why do we wonder why retention rates are so bad? Almost no converts have read anything in the scriptures on their own (and they read almost nothing that's secular, either) ---- but then, most members don't read scriptures much. They might scroll around a bit on their device in gospel doctrine, and "talk prep" becomes doing a search on lds.org . . .

 

Book on tape in the car is not a substitute for scripture study. . .

 

I also think that there is a direct connection between the decline of reading and the "foofiness" of the content in Church magazines.

I agree. The divine design of things is to use books of remembrance, books of life, records and books of the fathers, scripture, etc. which must be very, very comprehensive.

 

A quick scripture word search of "read" shows the necessity of literacy and the written word for our salvation and progress.

 

There are accounts in scripture of the terrible things that happen when people cannot read, live in ignorance, etc.

 

2 Ne. 27: 11: “And the day cometh that the words of the book which were sealed shall be read upon the house tops; and they shall be read by the power of Christ; and all things shall be revealed unto the children of men which ever have been among the children of men, and which ever will be even unto the end of the earth.”

 

The First Vision occurred because Joseph Smith could read: "While I was laboring under the extreme difficulties caused by the contests of these parties of religionists, I was one day reading the Epistle of James, first chapter and fifth verse, which reads: If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him." (JS-H 1: 11)

 

Of course, the Spirit can accommodate those with various learning styles that can interfere with their reading. And the other media serve a purpose as well.

[ksfisher]

 

I had a question about something mentioned on page 157 of "Mine Errand from the Lord" 

by Boyd K. Packer.  It is also found in Ensign, May 1986, “The Things of My Soul”. 

 

It says, "No missionary, no member can fulfill that promise—neither Apostle nor President 

can fulfill that promise. It is a promise of direct revelation to you on the conditions 

described in the book. After you have read the Book of Mormon, you become qualified to 

inquire of the Lord, in the way that He prescribes in the book, as to whether the book is 

true. You will be eligible, on the conditions He has established, to receive that personal 

revelation".

 

Do you find a growing trend in that the missionaries will ask you to receive this promise only

after you have read a few verses or pages or is it just the practice of some novice missionaries

who are eager to seek a new convert?

 

I have talked with a few and they seem to want to jump the gun so to speak.

 

What has your experience been?

 

Thanks,

Jim

 

 

On another note, the quote from President Packer doesn't specify how much of the Book of Mormon needs to be read for the Spirit to bear witness of it's truth. 

[Ahab]

I disagree, Ahab. I think we (and the world) have really lost something when reading declines. I mean, why do we wonder why retention rates are so bad? Almost no converts have read anything in the scriptures on their own (and they read almost nothing that's secular, either) ---- but then, most members don't read scriptures much. They might scroll around a bit on their device in gospel doctrine, and "talk prep" becomes doing a search on lds.org . . .

Book on tape in the car is not a substitute for scripture study. . .

I also think that there is a direct connection between the decline of reading and the "foofiness" of the content in Church magazines.

You do realize reading is just a way to get the information that is in the written message, don't you? And that the same message can be received by hearing a person give that message "out loud" instead of needing someone to write it down and someone to give you a copy so that then you can read what he said?

I know that not everyone is a good speaker, and that it isn't always possible to hear a speaker say what he has to say, which could be good reasons to read instead of hear what someone says, but given the choice why would you rather read what someone says instead of hearing them say it out loud or transferring those thoughts to you directly as God does, himself?

[Tiki]

You do realize reading is just a way to get the information that is in the written message, don't you? And that the same message can be received by hearing a person give that message "out loud" instead of needing someone to write it down and someone to give you a copy so that then you can read what he said?

I know that not everyone is a good speaker, and that it isn't always possible to hear a speaker say what he has to say, which could be good reasons to read instead of hear what someone says, but given the choice why would you rather read what someone says instead of hearing them say it out loud or transferring those thoughts to you directly as God does, himself?

 

Wow. I didn't know people could transfer thoughts to you directly as God does. I thought it was the Holy Ghost who testified of the truthfulness or not of what people say to you.

 

That said, I notice that not much emphasis is given on verse 3 of the 10th chapter of Moroni in comparison to verse 4.

[rongo]

Yeah, if you find an investigator who actually reads the Book of Mormon, you've found someone special. It's the real "separator," and the fact that our missionary programs don't focus on reading the Book of Mormon at all (or other scriptures) is a large part of why retention rates are so bad. I know, I know ---- missionaries assign short reading assignments. But if investigators make no effort to read even those short assignments, it's not a big deal or a concern at all. It really is a non-factor as far as "conversion" goes. There is a world of difference between "conversion" and "baptizing people who agree for a multitude of reasons to be baptized." And then we wring our hands over the fact that most converts quickly go inactive or missing ---- despite our best efforts to fellowship.

 

What would the difference have been, Ahab, if early missionaries didn't emphasize reading, and instead just "told" investigators the story of the restoration? Would the early Church have grown as much (or as solidly) with this "better" method of "pure communication?"

[Rain]

You do realize reading is just a way to get the information that is in the written message, don't you? And that the same message can be received by hearing a person give that message "out loud" instead of needing someone to write it down and someone to give you a copy so that then you can read what he said?

I know that not everyone is a good speaker, and that it isn't always possible to hear a speaker say what he has to say, which could be good reasons to read instead of hear what someone says, but given the choice why would you rather read what someone says instead of hearing them say it out loud or transferring those thoughts to you directly as God does, himself?

Because reading it works SO much better for me than hearing it 99 percent of time. I learn by touch best, then visually and then hearing is way down the line.

Besides, when I read it is so much easier to stop and ponder or even stop, reread and ponder than stopping a talk or recording.

I love that conference talks come in video, audio and print now - different methods for the different ways people learn.

[Rain]

I had a question about something mentioned on page 157 of "Mine Errand from the Lord"

by Boyd K. Packer. It is also found in Ensign, May 1986, “The Things of My Soul”.

It says, "No missionary, no member can fulfill that promise—neither Apostle nor President

can fulfill that promise. It is a promise of direct revelation to you on the conditions

described in the book. After you have read the Book of Mormon, you become qualified to

inquire of the Lord, in the way that He prescribes in the book, as to whether the book is

true. You will be eligible, on the conditions He has established, to receive that personal

revelation".

Do you find a growing trend in that the missionaries will ask you to receive this promise only

after you have read a few verses or pages or is it just the practice of some novice missionaries

who are eager to seek a new convert?

I have talked with a few and they seem to want to jump the gun so to speak.

What has your experience been?

Thanks,

Jim

I don't find that it has changed from when I went on my mission 25 years ago. Some people are ready sooner than others. Some missionaries read people better than others. Some missionaries don't listen well to their investigators. Others do.

My concern as a missionary would be finding out why someone hasn't read much of the Book of Mormon rather than wondering if the person has read enough to know it is true.

[bcuzbcuz]

You're not the only one.

 

I always knew that Joseph was a prophet, and that the Book of Mormon was true (even before I had read it) while still a very small boy.

 

Wouldn't it be safe to say then, that your "knowledge" was that of your parents and your faith was in them? Not that that is a bad thing, but theirs, nevertheless.

[giotto]

I hate to be the stater of the obvious, but what President Packer is simply describing is the process of true conversion where hearts and lives are dramatically changed and directed towards eternal truth and eternal destiny. To make this happen, the Holy Ghost is everything. When I was a teenager I decided to read the Book of Mormon for the first time in my life. I got somewhere in the middle of 2 Nephi and without even getting on my knees I asked from my heart whether what I was reading was really true. I was overwhelmed by the Spirit to such a degree (at that time I was so ignorant that I didn't completely realize what was happening), that it actually scared me. As a missionary five years later I realized my purpose as a teacher was to teach the doctrines as understandable as possible, create an atmosphere conducive to the Spirit, and testify of what I knew to be true. If we were teaching someone with an open heart, willing to learn, the Holy Ghost would be felt. Once recognized, this would bring people to the desire to know for themselves and experiment on the word (Alma 32:27-28). Then they would be converted.

President Packer is right. Personal revelation through the Holy Ghost equals conversion. Conversion leads to baptism and receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost. We are then on the strait and narrow path and remain so if we continue to follow the promptings of the Holy Ghost. Simply reading the book isn't enough. Every anti-Mormon is evidence of that.

President Packer elaborated on this subject more fully in last April's General Conference. Titled "The Witness," he begins with his story of how he came to know the truthfulness of the gospel and how he built his testimony "precept upon precept" to the point where he can say that the testimony of Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon in D&C 76:22-23 is his witness as well. Great talk and worth more than just a quick read.  

[Avatar4321]

I agree with alot of the comments here. we need to create an atmosphere conducive to the Spirit.

 

When I really tried to read the Book of Mormon through the first time, I got stuck in Alma. I didn't try again until college. Then I started at Helaman and read through to the end, started over and read through back to Helaman. The Lord gave me a witness and understanding of the Atonement through the Book of Mormon and a witness that Christ really appeared to them.

 

My really strong witness came from reading the Doctrine and Covenants though. the Lord converted me and helped me recognize the Spirit truly acting.

[Walden]

Boyd, aka Elder Packer, was making the point that Moroni's promise was conditional and that a person must fulfill those conditions before expecting to receive what Moroni promised. And that is just good common sense, just as it would be with anyone's promise when a promise is conditional.

 

So would the argument go that if one studys, ponders and prays about the Book of Mormon and does not get a confirmation of it's truthfulness, then they must not have properly fullfilled all of the necessary conditions to receive this confirmation?

 

Is it plausible that one could fulfill all the conditions required by Moroni's Promise and still not receive confirmation of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon? If one doesn't receive this confirmation as offered by Moroni's Promise, is it a general LDS belief that the only possible conclusion is that they just going about it in the wrong way?

 

This is a sincere question, as the lack of a confirmation of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon was my first step out of the church in my mid-twenties. I thought I was doing everything right, reading, fasting, praying in earnest to receive a confirmation, the lack of which caused me great stress and worrying and a sense of hopelessness, as I felt like a failure and a phony.

 

This lack of a confirmation of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon was the single biggest event that led to my exit from the church.

[thesometimesaint]

So would the argument go that if one studys, ponders and prays about the Book of Mormon and does not get a confirmation of it's truthfulness, then they must not have properly fullfilled all of the necessary conditions to receive this confirmation?

 

Is it plausible that one could fulfill all the conditions required by Moroni's Promise and still not receive confirmation of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon? If one doesn't receive this confirmation as offered by Moroni's Promise, is it a general LDS belief that the only possible conclusion is that they just going about it in the wrong way?

 

This is a sincere question, as the lack of a confirmation of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon was my first step out of the church in my mid-twenties. I thought I was doing everything right, reading, fasting, praying in earnest to receive a confirmation, the lack of which caused me great stress and worrying and a sense of hopelessness, as I felt like a failure and a phony.

 

This lack of a confirmation of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon was the single biggest event that led to my exit from the church.

 

That is certainly possible. Though it is more likely that when results of any experiment are inconsistent. Then it usually is the experimenter and not the experiment that is at fault.

[rongo]

Walden:

 

I believe that people don't always get a confirmation of the Spirit as quickly as they want it, and I also believe that sometimes people get a distinct "no" answer *from the Spirit* (because the timing isn't right, etc.). I compare this to David Whitmer's experience with the voice of God telling him to separate himself from the Saints at Far West. I believe that God did tell him to, which seems counterintuitive to many LDS.

 

That said, I believe that the Book of Mormon is "true" (that the people, places, and events really existed/happened, and that God brought it forth through angelic ministration) and that spiritual confirmation will come to diligent seekers. Just not "on demand."

[Ahab]

Wow. I didn't know people could transfer thoughts to you directly as God does. I thought it was the Holy Ghost who testified of the truthfulness or not of what people say to you.

The word/name/title God applies equally well to the Holy Ghost and/or our Father in heaven, and while I'm at it Jesus Christ, and oh why not you and me and every other person who is the same kind of being as our Father in heaven.

My point was that we (our kind of being) don't really need written words as long as we have some (other) way to get ideas from...whatever and can transfer those ideas to... whatever, including amongst ourselves. And yes there are other and better ways to get and transfer ideas and even pictures and sounds without having to use written words. Like the way our Father does it when he communicates personally with us, for example.

That said, I notice that not much emphasis is given on verse 3 of the 10th chapter of Moroni in comparison to verse 4.

I notice that Moroni was talking about a lot more than just reading in that verse, and I also have noticed that when God answers me when ask him a question I can get it without needing to read it.

[Garden Girl]

 

This lack of a confirmation of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon was the single biggest event that led to my exit from the church.

 

Hello Walden...

I'm sorry that this was the main catalyst for exiting the Church... I was very fortunate in that when I accepted Moroni's challenge and prayed to know if the BoM was true... I was given a gift of a very stong witness... very strong... of its truthfulness, which was the main catalyst for my remaining close to the Church throughout 34 years of total inactivity.  And finally, in 1995 at the age of 54, I walked in the door of my ward and started all over again at square one... and here I am today...

 

GG