Same 10 People

[Rain]

On another thread the Same 10 People idea was talked about. This is where the same people tend to get all of the leadership positions - they just rotate between them.

Do you feel this happens? In all wards?

Is it because of the skills or campaigning of those people? Coincidence? Self fulfilling prophesy?

I think it does happen sometimes, but other times people just think it does because people only notice when those 10 people are called.

In my last ward I only noticed 2 people rotating in the 7 years I was there. The bishopric counselor became the bishop and 1 YW leader had some other leadership calling which I can't remember.

Edited July 3, 2014 by Rain

[ELF1024]

On another thread the Same 10 People idea was talked about. This is where the same people tend to get all of the leadership positions - they just rotate between them.

Do you feel this happens? In all wards?

Is it because of the skills or campaigning of those people? Coincidence? Self fulfilling prophesy?

I think it does happen sometimes, but othet times people just think it foes because they only take note when those 10 people are called.

In my last ward I only noticed 2 people rotating in the 7 years I was there. The bishpric counselor became the bishop and 1 YW leader had some other leadership calling which I can't remember.

 

I haven't been in the same Ward long enough, since I re-entered the church, to notice. In our current Ward, we have alot of people come for six months, for training at Fort Huachuca... and then go off to their next assignment.

 

Added: In any case, I won't ever be one of the 10... I'm just not that kind of material.

Edited July 2, 2014 by ELF1024

[ksfisher]

I would imagine a lot of it would depend on the number of members in the ward/branch.  Some wards struggle to fill leadership positions, others have more people than callings.  As I mentioned in the other thread, on my mission I served in a branch that only had two priesthood holders.  They had swapped positions a couple of times. 

 

Many callings we have in the church prepare us for one with more responsibility.  The last time a new president in my stake was called the GA started out by interviewing all of the former bishops.  That doesn't mean that the position had to go to a former bishop, but those men had proven that they could shoulder that responsibility. 

[JLHPROF]

On another thread the Same 10 People idea was talked about. This is where the same people tend to get all of the leadership positions - they just rotate between them.

Do you feel this happens? In all wards?

Is it because of the skills or campaigning of those people? Coincidence? Self fulfilling prophesy?

I think it does happen sometimes, but othet times people just think it foes because they only take note when those 10 people are called.

In my last ward I only noticed 2 people rotating in the 7 years I was there. The bishpric counselor became the bishop and 1 YW leader had some other leadership calling which I can't remember.

 

I don't think it happens ALL the time.  But it does happen regularly.  It's a pretty safe bet that a 1st Counselor in something will be called to be the President/Bishop soon.  It's no different with the GA's.  The Apostles are usually chosen from the Seventy etc.

 

What's fun is when someone with no experience is called to a major calling (I'm not talking nursery teacher here).  The experienced people tend to mutter and the new appointee usually seems a little shaken.

[mfbukowski]

On another thread the Same 10 People idea was talked about. This is where the same people tend to get all of the leadership positions - they just rotate between them.

Do you feel this happens? In all wards?

Is it because of the skills or campaigning of those people? Coincidence? Self fulfilling prophesy?

I think it does happen sometimes, but othet times people just think it foes because they only take note when those 10 people are called.

In my last ward I only noticed 2 people rotating in the 7 years I was there. The bishpric counselor became the bishop and 1 YW leader had some other leadership calling which I can't remember.

In many cases they are the only ones who will accept the calls.

 

Leadership is a lot of work- those who haven't been in it tend to think it is "glory"- it is not.  It is dirty, down in the trenches, 12 hour Sundays negotiating and calling people who largely don't want to be bothered, or won't do what they are asked to do, or worse, say they will, and then don't do it.  You have to be impervious to frustration and be very dedicated to be a good leader.   And people with those qualities are few and far between.

 

I had one former bishop tell me that the reason bishops are generally called for 5 years is that about 20% of the ward gets fed up with them every year, and at the end of the 5 years, everyone is, so it's time to bring in someone else.

 

He was joking but there is definite truth in that.  Getting people to do their responsibilities without being a nag is not easy or fun.

 

Then there is the joke about the bishop who would go down to the train station and watch the trains.

His counselor asked him why he spent so much time watching the trains leave the station.

He said, "Oh I just love to see SOMETHING move under its own power!". 

 

There's a lot of truth in that.

Edited July 2, 2014 by mfbukowski

[stemelbow]

It happens.

Sometimes others are seen as not trustworthy. Sometimes the leaders are quick to just "promote" others because they know they can trust them. It varies and some local wards are better than others at avoiding falling into the trap, but it happens.

I've seen many wards where the leaders assume all responsibility, become a bit of a club busying themselves for the sake of being busy without realizing the ease from which they could accomplish things. On a local level, I'd say the Church is quite boring. Not much happens. Bishops are overburdened and don't know how to get out of that hole, many seem to enjoy the stigma of being overworked either feeling justified all the more to God or feeling proud that others recognize them. But the fruit is usually a couple new people coming back every once in a while while others feel ostracized and bored.

[ksfisher]

 Bishops are overburdened and don't know how to get out of that hole, many seem to enjoy the stigma of being overworked either feeling justified all the more to God or feeling proud that others recognize them.

 

 

How do you know this?  How do you know what is in these bishops hearts and what motivates them?

[Duncan]

This happens in the stake I live on a consistent basis. I think for us it's the lack of people. So you get 'leaders' who have been literally everything about 5 times and they are burnt out. In the last 3 years we had 2 brothers get released from the High Council who went straight into inactivity. Our High Councilor over missionary work attends the Catholic church with his wife on sunday afts. when he is around. Our Stake Patriarch went inactive a few years ago. We have about 5 or 6 or so brethren who have been Bishops twice now. I dunno, I think here people see the Church as a game, just as a social thing. Also I see we have a lot of men in leadership callings that really don't care, have no sense of doctrine or church practice and are just going through the motions so you get weird doctrinal abberations, people who haven't ever read the Book of Mormon and all kinds of other oddities. I have a real problem with following or taking seriously phony leaders, I can't follow people who don't care or don't know anything and don't care enough to find out

[Calm]

Sounds like you have a vicious circle going...faithful members becoming discouraged, etc.

I can't remember if I asked you this, but I take it there is not a lot of moving in of families (which can often bring new energy to a ward if in high enough numbers, otherwise they may pick up the ward's attitude).

[Garden Girl]

This happens in the stake I live on a consistent basis. I think for us it's the lack of people. So you get 'leaders' who have been literally everything about 5 times and they are burnt out. In the last 3 years we had 2 brothers get released from the High Council who went straight into inactivity. Our High Councilor over missionary work attends the Catholic church with his wife on sunday afts. when he is around. Our Stake Patriarch went inactive a few years ago. We have about 5 or 6 or so brethren who have been Bishops twice now. I dunno, I think here people see the Church as a game, just as a social thing. Also I see we have a lot of men in leadership callings that really don't care, have no sense of doctrine or church practice and are just going through the motions so you get weird doctrinal abberations, people who haven't ever read the Book of Mormon and all kinds of other oddities. I have a real problem with following or taking seriously phony leaders, I can't follow people who don't care or don't know anything and don't care enough to find out

Duncan...

I find this so very sad... really disappointing.  We, fortunately, have had wonderful bishops though we are a small ward... in fact the last one was wonderfully wise... he was just  released a few months ago and the new one is a very dedicated and spiritual man.  And our stake presidencies have been the same... particularly the current president... we live 60 miles from our stake center, through some rough miles particularly in winter (the Van Duzer corridor... a 10-mile dedicated forested area with a 760 ft summit that gets snow and fallen trees).  So we have our stake meetings televised in our ward most of the time.  I love hearing him speak... it's obvious what a faithful servant he is...

I don't know what I'd do if I had a ward or stake as you described... our many visitors always exclaim what a special ward we have, and they come back again and again...

 

GG

[CV75]

On another thread the Same 10 People idea was talked about. This is where the same people tend to get all of the leadership positions - they just rotate between them.

Do you feel this happens? In all wards?

Is it because of the skills or campaigning of those people? Coincidence? Self fulfilling prophesy?

I think it does happen sometimes, but othet times people just think it foes because they only take note when those 10 people are called.

In my last ward I only noticed 2 people rotating in the 7 years I was there. The bishpric counselor became the bishop and 1 YW leader had some other leadership calling which I can't remember.

Hard to say; it seems to make sense but perhaps has mostly to do with the transiency of the membership with only a few long-term residents hanging around for decades. I've heard the complaint expressed more in terms of the "same 10 people" are put-upon to take on low-profile chores and assignments, and this concern is raised as much by leaders as the  weary. I've had lots of callings at several ward and stake levels, periods with no calling at all except temple worker, and periods of no calling but just one assignment after another that people thought were my callings (I liked that the best).

[awyatt]

On another thread the Same 10 People idea was talked about. This is where the same people tend to get all of the leadership positions - they just rotate between them.

Do you feel this happens? In all wards?

Yes, it happens. No, it doesn't happen in all wards.

In the wards where I've seen it happen, it is typically for one (or more) of the following reasons:

• Very few "stalwart" members in the ward.
• Too many overworked members holding multiple real-life jobs, which precludes them from accepting a demanding Church calling.
• Poor management/leadership skills by the bishopric members.
• Bias (rational or not) by the bishopric members.
• Personality schisms among ward members.
• Real-world realization of the 80/20 rule.
• High number of members who have conflicts that preclude them from serving (serving in law enforcement, under Church discipline, name on some legal list, etc.)
• High number of members who are not worthy.

This list is just off the top of my head; I'm sure there were more reasons of which I was not aware.

-Allen

[Duncan]

Yes, it happens. No, it doesn't happen in all wards.

In the wards where I've seen it happen, it is typically for one (or more) of the following reasons:

• Very few "stalwart" members in the ward.
• Too many overworked members holding multiple real-life jobs, which precludes them from accepting a demanding Church calling.
• Poor management/leadership skills by the bishopric members.
• Bias (rational or not) by the bishopric members.
• Personality schisms among ward members.
• Real-world realization of the 80/20 rule.
• High number of members who have conflicts that preclude them from serving (serving in law enforcement, under Church discipline, name on some legal list, etc.)
• High number of members who are not worthy.

This list is just off the top of my head; I'm sure there were more reasons of which I was not aware.

-Allen

 

 

I agree with this list! In our ward we have 6 families running it and barely managing it

 

one problem I am dealing with is contacting all these inactives. After 2.5 years we discovered the membership clerk who lives  about 15 minutes from the church hadn't done anything, literally nothing with the lists of people who don't live there anymore. My bro. and someone else almost had to drag his oonka toonka off the couch and haul him to the church to do it his calling, we'll see if anything has changed...

Edited July 3, 2014 by Duncan

[strappinglad]

Time to trim the deadwood and revert to "branch' status. ( there's a pun in there somewhere ) A ward I know had the EQPres and HPGL go around to all the inactives and ask them if they wanted to remain on the ward rolls. It was fish or cut bait time. Funny how many were shocked and insisted to remain on the rolls. A metaphor about ships and barnacles

floats into view.( there I go again ).

[MorningStar]

One issue is that the person has to say "yes".  A lot of people say no to callings that aren't as major as being bishop, RS president, etc.  Another is being dependable.  We have a few people in our ward who are complete flakes, so they would be disasters as bishops. 

[ERayR]

On another thread the Same 10 People idea was talked about. This is where the same people tend to get all of the leadership positions - they just rotate between them.

Do you feel this happens? In all wards?

Is it because of the skills or campaigning of those people? Coincidence? Self fulfilling prophesy?

I think it does happen sometimes, but othet times people just think it foes because they only take note when those 10 people are called.

In my last ward I only noticed 2 people rotating in the 7 years I was there. The bishpric counselor became the bishop and 1 YW leader had some other leadership calling which I can't remember.

 

What I have noticed is that, in most wards, there is a core group who are the ones that can be depended on to do what needs done.  My observation is that it is more than 10 but probably less than 50-60.  This group is in a constant state of flux as people move in and out of the ward.  I see another group in most wards of maybe 15 who are new converts of returning inactive members who will with a little time move into the "core" leadership group.  I have watched as new converts come in knowing very little about the workings of a ward and with a very limited doctrinal foundation and in 3 to 4 years become competent leaders who are doctrinally sound.  

[Kenngo1969]

Yes, it happens. No, it doesn't happen in all wards.

In the wards where I've seen it happen, it is typically for one (or more) of the following reasons: ...

• High number of members who have conflicts that preclude them from serving (serving in law enforcement, under Church discipline, name on some legal list, etc.) ...

-Allen

Reminds me of a funny story.  My dad served in a Bishopric for 3 1/2 years, and also was in law enforcement for 43 years.  (His service in the Bishopric occurred well before he retired.)  The bishop and my dad made a visit to a less-active couple, and the Bishop gave them a wonderful discourse on the virtues of keeping the Word of Wisdom. There was a beautiful leafy plant on the television set.  After the visit, my dad gave the Bishop what was probably his first ever lesson in drug recognition.  "Did you see the big, beautiful, leafy plant on the television set?"

 

"Yes," the Bishop replied.

 

"It was a marijuana plant," my dad replied.

 

"Oh," the Bishop rejoined.

[ERayR]

Bishops are overburdened and don't know how to get out of that hole, many seem to enjoy the stigma of being overworked either feeling justified all the more to God or feeling proud that others recognize them. But the fruit is usually a couple new people coming back every once in a while while others feel ostracized and bored.

 

Pretty cynical view.  It's not one I recognize.  Most of the Bishops I know or have known served because they really cared.

[ERayR]

This happens in the stake I live on a consistent basis. I think for us it's the lack of people. So you get 'leaders' who have been literally everything about 5 times and they are burnt out. In the last 3 years we had 2 brothers get released from the High Council who went straight into inactivity. Our High Councilor over missionary work attends the Catholic church with his wife on sunday afts. when he is around. Our Stake Patriarch went inactive a few years ago. We have about 5 or 6 or so brethren who have been Bishops twice now. I dunno, I think here people see the Church as a game, just as a social thing. Also I see we have a lot of men in leadership callings that really don't care, have no sense of doctrine or church practice and are just going through the motions so you get weird doctrinal abberations, people who haven't ever read the Book of Mormon and all kinds of other oddities. I have a real problem with following or taking seriously phony leaders, I can't follow people who don't care or don't know anything and don't care enough to find out

 

I have not experienced that and am sorry to hear it.  It makes it harder for those who really care.  Hang in there.

[Tacenda]

I have not experienced that and am sorry to hear it. It makes it harder for those who really care. Hang in there.

Duncan has the most dysfunctional ward ever.

[Duncan]

Duncan has the most dysfunctional ward ever.

 let me tell you a bit about or organization.........my folks ward about 15 years ago had a Bishop who was there for about 2-3 years, he did everything to get sacrament mtg going but that was about it. Everything else fell to his recent convert counselor-who tried to do his best but he just didn't know enough and his wife told my Mum they don't pay tithing, because they didn't do that in the previous Church they were in, so my Mum had an recommend interview with him and she knew he didn't pay tithing and that was weird! all told, the Bishop got released in short order and he basically went inactive after that and is now totally inactive as his overburdened counselor. The other one is active! 

 

Calmoriah called me once an idealist and it's true. I think to be a High Priest or a leader (bishop, Counselor, High Councilor, Stake Pres. etc.) you should have shown your mettle under fire and come out with your testimony intact and want to help others and serve, but I am not seeing that. This is a real life situation that floored me. There is a Bishop in our stake that prior to being a Bishop was off and on the High Council since I was a kid so the 1980's, in addition to being a member since the early 1970's and he told me a few years ago he had no idea how someone becomes the President of the Church. I can't believe that, hasn't he been paying attention in all that time, in all those general Confs.?? that blows my mind. I can't take seriously phony people no matter what they call themselves!!!-sorry for the rant!

Edited July 3, 2014 by Duncan

[Rain]

I had thought of some of the reasons why some wards may have the same 10, but others were brought up I had never considered. Thanks!

 

It's been interesting to me to see how things have worked out for us. Two wards ago both of us, DH and I, were both called to multiple leadership positions.  In the last ward DH was called in as a counselor once, but the other callings took very little time and not much leadership experience if at all..  In this ward we haven't been here long enough to see how it will go.  

 

So how do you move a ward from the same 10 people to everyone shares?  If you have seen your ward do this what steps did it take? What things back fired?

[Tacenda]

let me tell you a bit about or organization.........my folks ward about 15 years ago had a Bishop who was there for about 2-3 years, he did everything to get sacrament mtg going but that was about it. Everything else fell to his recent convert counselor-who tried to do his best but he just didn't know enough and his wife told my Mum they don't pay tithing, because they didn't do that in the previous Church they were in, so my Mum had an recommend interview with him and she knew he didn't pay tithing and that was weird! all told, the Bishop got released in short order and he basically went inactive after that and is now totally inactive as his overburdened counselor. The other one is active!

Calmoriah called me once an idealist and it's true. I think to be a High Priest or a leader (bishop, Counselor, High Councilor, Stake Pres. etc.) you should have shown your mettle under fire and come out with your testimony intact and want to help others and serve, but I am not seeing that. This is a real life situation that floored me. There is a Bishop in our stake that prior to being a Bishop was off and on the High Council since I was a kid so the 1980's, in addition to being a member since the early 1970's and he told me a few years ago he had no idea how someone becomes the President of the Church. I can't believe that, hasn't he been paying attention in all that time, in all those general Confs.?? that blows my mind. I can't take seriously phony people no matter what they call themselves!!!-sorry for the rant!

You deserve the rant.

My ward/stake has long been one of the most active and supposedly welcoming around. We were among the very first or the first stake allowed to perform "The Saviour of the World". Before that it had only been performed at the Conference Center. Atleast I'm 80% sure about this.

Our bishop is our HT (we must be on a keep tabs list) and he visited last Sunday and told us there aren't enough callings to give everyone, that's how active people are, a very high ratio attend all there meetings. Of course we have had new move in's.

I've already praised the men in my ward, dang it sure didn't come in handy when discussing some men's bad behaviour on another thread.

[stemelbow]

How do you know this?  How do you know what is in these bishops hearts and what motivates them?

I way overstated that. It's just what I've seen from the few wards I've been heavily engaged in. It's probably unfair for me to pronounce that judgment even on the ones I've known, but it seems pretty consistent to me. Of course I could be wrong. I don't know it.

[stemelbow]

Pretty cynical view.  It's not one I recognize.  Most of the Bishops I know or have known served because they really cared.

I'm not saying they don't really care. they care. It just so happens they also tend to like the "prestige" of the calling for some reason. Seems burdensome. I've never been a bishop and while part of me sees a plus in serving as one another part of me thinks it'd be exception difficult.