Same 10 People

[BCSpace]

Since it takes 15 active Melchizedek Priesthood holders to establish a ward, for sure the "same 10 people" often rotate the callings among themselves.  One of the pressures to do so is the council to "make sure your best people are called to Young Men" or YW or RS or EQ or HPGL or whatever is the area of concern.  Often, your very best people are the "same 10 people".

 

However recently in a Stake Bishopric meeting, the council was to essentially not call "the same ten people" so they don't get worn out and others get a chance or others get activated and then called etc.  But just a few months prior was the council to call your very best to the YM.

 

 

There is always tension in the Gospel Plan and the administration of it...

Edited July 3, 2014 by BCSpace

[MorningStar]

I'm not saying they don't really care. they care. It just so happens they also tend to like the "prestige" of the calling for some reason. Seems burdensome. I've never been a bishop and while part of me sees a plus in serving as one another part of me thinks it'd be exception difficult.

How do you know that?  How do you know their hearts?  I feel like there is some resentment towards faithful people who are always willing to serve, as if they are goodie two shoes or something.  My bishop is one of those people who is always serving.  He was Scout Master before this and he accepted the calling even though he hated camping with a passion.  He totally rose to the challenge and it was one of the hardest things he ever had to do.  He didn't enjoy any "prestige" from being Scout Master.  He has been a hard worker who loves to help others ever since he was a boy.  His boys are the same.  They jump at the chance to help, give talks, prayers, etc. 

[stemelbow]

How do you know that?  How do you know their hearts?  I feel like there is some resentment towards faithful people who are always willing to serve, as if they are goodie two shoes or something.  My bishop is one of those people who is always serving.  He was Scout Master before this and he accepted the calling even though he hated camping with a passion.  He totally rose to the challenge and it was one of the hardest things he ever had to do.  He didn't enjoy any "prestige" from being Scout Master.  He has been a hard worker who loves to help others ever since he was a boy.  His boys are the same.  They jump at the chance to help, give talks, prayers, etc.

that's great. All bishops are different. I don't mean to suggest this is universal. And I'll say again. I don't know, its the impression I've gotten over the course of working with several bishops in several wards. Not all the bishops I've worked with are the same. Some are better than others. And some seem less self-aggrandizing than others. I have no to little resentment. I'm normally happy to do whatever is asked of me by the bishops I've had. I've never turned down a calling and try to take on the attitude of serving no matter the circumstance, albeit I too have my weaknesses. And I too suffer from frailty of wanting to be noticed and acknowledged from time to time.

ETA: A sure sign of a problem person is one who hates camping.(-;

Edited July 3, 2014 by stemelbow

[Duncan]

that's great. All bishops are different. I don't mean to suggest this is universal. And I'll say again. I don't know, its the impression I've gotten over the course of working with several bishops in several wards. Not all the bishops I've worked with are the same. Some are better than others. And some seem less self-aggrandizing than others. I have no to little resentment. I'm normally happy to do whatever is asked of me by the bishops I've had. I've never turned down a calling and try to take on the attitude of serving no matter the circumstance, albeit I too have my weaknesses. And I too suffer from frailty of wanting to be noticed and acknowledged from time to time.

ETA: A sure sign of a problem person is one who hates camping.(-;

 

 

 

watch this if you love camping, of which I don't

[Boanerges]

However recently in a Stake Bishopric meeting, the council was to essentially not call "the same ten people" so they don't get worn out and others get a chance or others get activated and then called etc.  But just a few months prior was the council to call your very best to the YM.

 

I think this counsel is coming from the top. I'm a high councilor and our stake president recently told us that he was taught by a General Authority at a regional training meeting that callings like high council should rotate frequently to give many an opportunity to serve and to train and prepare more for leadership. Arguably, of course, high councilors are already leaders but the implication seemed to be that high councilors should be prepared to become bishops. With that, the high councilor who had served 20 years was almost immediately released. (And while he's a great guy, I don't see him ever being a bishop.)

 

Back to the OP, I did live in a small ward once where quite literally it was the same few people (thinking back it probably was fewer than 10 - maybe 7 or who were bishop, counselor, HPGL, etc. They literally just rotated. Yes, the ward was small, rural, and there were not many converts or move ins, it was quite stable population wise. But there were others capable of serving and leading more who were never called upon because they weren't part of the little band of old boys. There were other things in play as well, for example the ward was "split" into essentially two groups of people who associated with each other but not people from the other group (and there were some people who didn't associate with either group to any great extent). The old boys were all from the same group, the other group and the outsiders never got any major callings. I'm actually quite glad that ward is part of my ancient history.

[Alan]

I currently serve as the Bishop in our ward. Over the past couple of years we have made a concerted effort to think outside the box and call/assign people to positions which would normally be filled by "the same 10 people".

It has been an absolute disaster.

 

The same 10 people are the same 10 people for good reason!

Edited July 3, 2014 by Alan

[stemelbow]

I currently serve as the Bishop in our ward. Over the past couple of years we have made a concerted effort to think outside the box and call/assign people to positions which would normally be filled by "the same 10 people".

It has been an absolute disaster.

 

The same 10 people are the same 10 people for good reason!

Interested to know in what ways it's been a disaster.

[rchorse]

I currently serve as the Bishop in our ward. Over the past couple of years we have made a concerted effort to think outside the box and call/assign people to positions which would normally be filled by "the same 10 people".

It has been an absolute disaster.

 

The same 10 people are the same 10 people for good reason!

This in spades. I'm the bishop of our ward, and it's not the same 10 people because we always call the same people. It's the same 10 people because they're the only ones that will both accept and magnify the calling. We've tried very hard to think outside the box with callings, especially leadership callings. It just hasn't gone that well. We've had a few great exceptions to this where we called someone who hadn't done much previously and they were great in a leadership role, but those exceptions have been rare.

As for bishops serving for the prestige, it's laughable. Bishop is the last calling I would ever want. I serve because I have a testimony that it's what the Lord wants me to do. I'm sure there are members of my ward, most likely those I've had to call out for bad behavior, who think I love the attention and love to feel important. But those who really know me know that I actually hate being the center of attention and would rather serve quietly somewhere less noticeable. I know all the other bishops in our stake well, and I know that not one of them serves for the attention or visibility. I'm sure there are some exceptions out there, but I'm confident they're a pretty small minority.

[stemelbow]

This in spades. I'm the bishop of our ward, and it's not the same 10 people because we always call the same people. It's the same 10 people because they're the only ones that will both accept and magnify the calling. We've tried very hard to think outside the box with callings, especially leadership callings. It just hasn't gone that well. We've had a few great exceptions to this where we called someone who hadn't done much previously and they were great in a leadership role, but those exceptions have been rare.

As for bishops serving for the prestige, it's laughable. Bishop is the last calling I would ever want. I serve because I have a testimony that it's what the Lord wants me to do. I'm sure there are members of my ward, most likely those I've had to call out for bad behavior, who think I love the attention and love to feel important. But those who really know me know that I actually hate being the center of attention and would rather serve quietly somewhere less noticeable. I know all the other bishops in our stake well, and I know that not one of them serves for the attention or visibility. I'm sure there are some exceptions out there, but I'm confident they're a pretty small minority.

If they're out there, then it's not laughable at all. It's reality.

But kudos to you and your service. I don't mean to demean the calling or the people who hold it.

[stemelbow]

This in spades. I'm the bishop of our ward, and it's not the same 10 people because we always call the same people. It's the same 10 people because they're the only ones that will both accept and magnify the calling. We've tried very hard to think outside the box with callings, especially leadership callings. It just hasn't gone that well. We've had a few great exceptions to this where we called someone who hadn't done much previously and they were great in a leadership role, but those exceptions have been rare.

It's interesting to hear this type of perspective from the bishop. In my mind there seems to be tons of people who are willing and able to serve in various leadership positions in our ward. They are smart and faithful people. There might be some things I don't know about as to why they don't have callings or if they do they have easy ones, I guess. but as far as I know these folks are often overlooked for some of the rest of us who have already carried the bulk of the weight. I do know when I ask them to do things in an EQ capacity they are able and willing, do a great job, all of that. When it comes to calling a new leader in some position they usually just take them from a different leadership post. There seems to be a hierarchical climbing the latter attitude in our stake. The President is all for trying to build the resumes of his favorites and it seems to have leaked down to the ward level too. Unfortunately it seems to me that many in leadership and continually get promoted to other higher leadership don't seem to do much but talk big and condescend to others at times.

[rchorse]

It's interesting to hear this type of perspective from the bishop. In my mind there seems to be tons of people who are willing and able to serve in various leadership positions in our ward. They are smart and faithful people. There might be some things I don't know about as to why they don't have callings or if they do they have easy ones, I guess. but as far as I know these folks are often overlooked for some of the rest of us who have already carried the bulk of the weight. I do know when I ask them to do things in an EQ capacity they are able and willing, do a great job, all of that. When it comes to calling a new leader in some position they usually just take them from a different leadership post. There seems to be a hierarchical climbing the latter attitude in our stake. The President is all for trying to build the resumes of his favorites and it seems to have leaked down to the ward level too. Unfortunately it seems to me that many in leadership and continually get promoted to other higher leadership don't seem to do much but talk big and condescend to others at times.

While I know that priesthood leaders make mistakes sometimes (I've made my share), I think most priesthood leaders genuinely try to seek the guidance of the Spirit when issuing callings. In a lot of cases, there are confidential worthiness issues that others don't know about, even with active, solid members with strong testimonies. Sometimes my counselors don't even know why. I just have to tell them that a person is not well-suited and leave it at that because I don't want to breach confidentiality. You'd also be surprised at some of the people that say no to callings. People who have been pillars of the ward for 30+ years and serve tirelessly in their own ways have told us no for callings on many occasions.

The characterization of leadership callings as a promotion or climbing the ladder is not accurate, in my opinion. I really don't believe the Lord is any more pleased with an Apostle magnifying his calling than with a Nursery Leader who magnifies his/her calling. Honestly, anyone who aspires to be a bishop or stake president or general authority is crazy. Some of the best, most spiritual people I've known have never had a leadership calling. I don't pretend to know why someone is called to a leadership calling while someone who seems capable and a good fit is not. I can think of many people in my ward better qualified to be bishop than I am. Knowing how hard it is to run a ward, though, I think it's worth giving bishops and stake presidents the benefit of the doubt.

[Rain]

I currently serve as the Bishop in our ward. Over the past couple of years we have made a concerted effort to think outside the box and call/assign people to positions which would normally be filled by "the same 10 people".

It has been an absolute disaster.

The same 10 people are the same 10 people for good reason!

so do you feel you were wrong in putting them in/misinterpreted the Spirit or can you see reasons now that it was right even though a disaster?

[stemelbow]

While I know that priesthood leaders make mistakes sometimes (I've made my share), I think most priesthood leaders genuinely try to seek the guidance of the Spirit when issuing callings.

Agreed.

In a lot of cases, there are confidential worthiness issues that others don't know about, even with active, solid members with strong testimonies. Sometimes my counselors don't even know why. I just have to tell them that a person is not well-suited and leave it at that because I don't want to breach confidentiality.

I understand that.

You'd also be surprised at some of the people that say no to callings. People who have been pillars of the ward for 30+ years and serve tirelessly in their own ways have told us no for callings on many occasions.

I get that too.

The characterization of leadership callings as a promotion or climbing the ladder is not accurate, in my opinion. I really don't believe the Lord is any more pleased with an Apostle magnifying his calling than with a Nursery Leader who magnifies his/her calling. Honestly, anyone who aspires to be a bishop or stake president or general authority is crazy. Some of the best, most spiritual people I've known have never had a leadership calling. I don't pretend to know why someone is called to a leadership calling while someone who seems capable and a good fit is not. I can think of many people in my ward better qualified to be bishop than I am. Knowing how hard it is to run a ward, though, I think it's worth giving bishops and stake presidents the benefit of the doubt.

Fair enough. I hope you are right and I am wrong as a whole.

[Rain]

While I know that priesthood leaders make mistakes sometimes (I've made my share), I think most priesthood leaders genuinely try to seek the guidance of the Spirit when issuing callings. In a lot of cases, there are confidential worthiness issues that others don't know about, even with active, solid members with strong testimonies. Sometimes my counselors don't even know why. I just have to tell them that a person is not well-suited and leave it at that because I don't want to breach confidentiality. You'd also be surprised at some of the people that say no to callings. People who have been pillars of the ward for 30+ years and serve tirelessly in their own ways have told us no for callings on many occasions.

The characterization of leadership callings as a promotion or climbing the ladder is not accurate, in my opinion. I really don't believe the Lord is any more pleased with an Apostle magnifying his calling than with a Nursery Leader who magnifies his/her calling. Honestly, anyone who aspires to be a bishop or stake president or general authority is crazy. Some of the best, most spiritual people I've known have never had a leadership calling. I don't pretend to know why someone is called to a leadership calling while someone who seems capable and a good fit is not. I can think of many people in my ward better qualified to be bishop than I am. Knowing how hard it is to run a ward, though, I think it's worth giving bishops and stake presidents the benefit of the doubt.

Thank you. I agree with that we should give leaders the benefit of the doubt.

[cinepro]

On another thread the Same 10 People idea was talked about. This is where the same people tend to get all of the leadership positions - they just rotate between them.

Do you feel this happens? In all wards?

Is it because of the skills or campaigning of those people? Coincidence? Self fulfilling prophesy?

I think it does happen sometimes, but other times people just think it does because people only notice when those 10 people are called.

In my last ward I only noticed 2 people rotating in the 7 years I was there. The bishopric counselor became the bishop and 1 YW leader had some other leadership calling which I can't remember.

 

 

My ward has a serious problem with this, and what's odd is that we're a huge ward with tons of excellent potential leaders.  We have an especially bad problem with the YM and YW leadership; they're all from a small "clique" that hangs out with the Bishop and go boating and vacationing together.  But most of these leaders are grossly incompetent.  My wife was the Laurel adviser and the problems were so bad that we finally had to go and talk with the Stake President last year.  He said he would talk to our Bishop and make sure the problems were taken care of.  The problem was solved: my wife was released.

 

It has gotten so bad that my TBM wife will not allow our teenagers to go to youth activities.  It's weird to type that because I still can't believe it's true.  After years of making my son go to weeknight activities, it's odd to finally admit that it would be better for his physical and spiritual health if he stayed home.     We've even told him if certain leaders are teaching his Priest's quorum lesson on Sundays, he can leave the class and sit in the foyer.  It's like a weird Twilight Zone episode.

 

I wouldn't have a problem with "the same 10 people" running things if they were really good at it.  But this current situation is awful.  One of the men used to be our EQP, and he was so bad the Stake (and rumors that even an Area Authority) insisted he be released (he actually reported 0% home teaching one month because he didn't feel like collecting the reports).  So the once he was released the Bishop made him Young Men's President!

 

Honestly, it's easy to tell people they shouldn't leave the Church because they are "offended" by other ward members, but it's really different when it happens to you or someone you love.  I can totally see how it can happen, and I suspect the only reason my wife still goes to Church is because she's stubborn.  It's weird to think that after all these years my family might stop going to Church and it might not be my fault...

[Duncan]

 

 

My ward has a serious problem with this, and what's odd is that we're a huge ward with tons of excellent potential leaders.  We have an especially bad problem with the YM and YW leadership; they're all from a small "clique" that hangs out with the Bishop and go boating and vacationing together.  But most of these leaders are grossly incompetent.  My wife was the Laurel adviser and the problems were so bad that we finally had to go and talk with the Stake President last year.  He said he would talk to our Bishop and make sure the problems were taken care of.  The problem was solved: my wife was released.

 

It has gotten so bad that my TBM wife will not allow our teenagers to go to youth activities.  It's weird to type that because I still can't believe it's true.  After years of making my son go to weeknight activities, it's odd to finally admit that it would be better for his physical and spiritual health if he stayed home.     We've even told him if certain leaders are teaching his Priest's quorum lesson on Sundays, he can leave the class and sit in the foyer.  It's like a weird Twilight Zone episode.

 

I wouldn't have a problem with "the same 10 people" running things if they were really good at it.  But this current situation is awful.  One of the men used to be our EQP, and he was so bad the Stake (and rumors that even an Area Authority) insisted he be released (he actually reported 0% home teaching one month because he didn't feel like collecting the reports).  So the once he was released the Bishop made him Young Men's President!

 

Honestly, it's easy to tell people they shouldn't leave the Church because they are "offended" by other ward members, but it's really different when it happens to you or someone you love.  I can totally see how it can happen, and I suspect the only reason my wife still goes to Church is because she's stubborn.  It's weird to think that after all these years my family might stop going to Church and it might not be my fault...

 

 

I am not happy this is happening but it goes to show it does and can happen. In our ward if they released the Bishop  I don't even know who they would get, we just don't have reliable men around here who could do it

[ELF1024]

 

Honestly, it's easy to tell people they shouldn't leave the Church because they are "offended" by other ward members, but it's really different when it happens to you or someone you love.  I can totally see how it can happen, and I suspect the only reason my wife still goes to Church is because she's stubborn.  It's weird to think that after all these years my family might stop going to Church and it might not be my fault...

 

That's horrible.

 

Makes me glad that I move every couple of years so I don't notice or have to deal with these kinds of issues long term.

[stemelbow]

My ward has a serious problem with this, and what's odd is that we're a huge ward with tons of excellent potential leaders.  We have an especially bad problem with the YM and YW leadership; they're all from a small "clique" that hangs out with the Bishop and go boating and vacationing together.  But most of these leaders are grossly incompetent.  My wife was the Laurel adviser and the problems were so bad that we finally had to go and talk with the Stake President last year.  He said he would talk to our Bishop and make sure the problems were taken care of.  The problem was solved: my wife was released.

 

It has gotten so bad that my TBM wife will not allow our teenagers to go to youth activities.  It's weird to type that because I still can't believe it's true.  After years of making my son go to weeknight activities, it's odd to finally admit that it would be better for his physical and spiritual health if he stayed home.     We've even told him if certain leaders are teaching his Priest's quorum lesson on Sundays, he can leave the class and sit in the foyer.  It's like a weird Twilight Zone episode.

 

I wouldn't have a problem with "the same 10 people" running things if they were really good at it.  But this current situation is awful.  One of the men used to be our EQP, and he was so bad the Stake (and rumors that even an Area Authority) insisted he be released (he actually reported 0% home teaching one month because he didn't feel like collecting the reports).  So the once he was released the Bishop made him Young Men's President!

 

Honestly, it's easy to tell people they shouldn't leave the Church because they are "offended" by other ward members, but it's really different when it happens to you or someone you love.  I can totally see how it can happen, and I suspect the only reason my wife still goes to Church is because she's stubborn.  It's weird to think that after all these years my family might stop going to Church and it might not be my fault...

And I thought my ward was a problem.

Yeah, I love the good ol' boy cliques that develop.

[stemelbow]

I am not happy this is happening but it goes to show it does and can happen. In our ward if they released the Bishop  I don't even know who they would get, we just don't have reliable men around here who could do it

I personally never seen a ward fall apart because of an incompetent bishop, which I've seen a couple of times. Just call anybody who can be pronounced worthy and let it ride.

[ELF1024]

I personally never seen a ward fall apart because of an incompetent bishop, which I've seen a couple of times. Just call anybody who can be pronounced worthy and let it ride.

 

That terrifies more than words can express. I'm very happy in my bubble of believe that because of my previous excom status that I'll never be called Bishop... don't go bursting the bubble...

Edited July 3, 2014 by ELF1024

[stemelbow]

 

That terrifies more than words can express. I'm very happy in my bubble of believe that because of my previous excom status that I'll never be called Bishop... don't go bursting the bubble...

Fear God. Don't fear responsibility and service.

[ERayR]

I'm not saying they don't really care. they care. It just so happens they also tend to like the "prestige" of the calling for some reason. Seems burdensome. I've never been a bishop and while part of me sees a plus in serving as one another part of me thinks it'd be exception difficult.

 

I have served with more than one and known several others and of all these I would say prestige was the last thing on their mind. 

[ERayR]

This in spades. I'm the bishop of our ward, and it's not the same 10 people because we always call the same people. It's the same 10 people because they're the only ones that will both accept and magnify the calling. We've tried very hard to think outside the box with callings, especially leadership callings. It just hasn't gone that well. We've had a few great exceptions to this where we called someone who hadn't done much previously and they were great in a leadership role, but those exceptions have been rare.

As for bishops serving for the prestige, it's laughable. Bishop is the last calling I would ever want. I serve because I have a testimony that it's what the Lord wants me to do. I'm sure there are members of my ward, most likely those I've had to call out for bad behavior, who think I love the attention and love to feel important. But those who really know me know that I actually hate being the center of attention and would rather serve quietly somewhere less noticeable. I know all the other bishops in our stake well, and I know that not one of them serves for the attention or visibility. I'm sure there are some exceptions out there, but I'm confident they're a pretty small minority.

 

I understand what you say but I might ask what training and encouragement are they given.  Are you meeting with them often and training them or is it a sink or swim situation? 

[ERayR]

I am not happy this is happening but it goes to show it does and can happen. In our ward if they released the Bishop  I don't even know who they would get, we just don't have reliable men around here who could do it

 

Go look in the mirror.

[The Nehor]

Fear God. Don't fear responsibility and service.

I fear 2 out of 3. Is that okay?